West Coast franchise delayed to Jan 2013

[Nym]

They are doing a very decent job with Northern, and I'd be happy if they got another franchise. You can't blame Abellio for most of the Northern problems (e.g. the DFT deciding that Birmingham's 150s are in need of replacement before Manchester's Pacers) - they make the most of what they have and run a decent service

Here here, Northern do the best with what the have, and I havn't heard anyone complain about merseyrail in a long time, NT do seem to be putting trains where the're needed, the only problem I have with what they do is putting all the 158s at one side of the country for operational convenience, rather than splitting them between Neville Hill, Newton Heath and Newcastle where they can be used on the most appropriate routes that NT have.

It would be nice to see what kind of Livery comes onto the pendos and voyagers in terms of livery, Abelio / Serco do tend to like a nice plain livery, somthing that I think is missing from this country. A nice lick of paint with some stickers is perfectly good IMO. I do like the newest NT Livery. Either way, it would be nice to give Serco/Abelio somthing else in the country. They do do the best they possibly can

 

[EWS 58038]

They are doing a very decent job with Northern, and I'd be happy if they got another franchise. You can't blame Abellio for most of the Northern problems (e.g. the DFT deciding that Birmingham's 150s are in need of replacement before Manchester's Pacers) - they make the most of what they have and run a decent service

My boss will be happy to hear that

 

[bengolding]

I understand Mr Hammond is likely to give a Mimisterial statement to the House, possibly on Tuesday, regarding the WCML franchise so we'll know for sure then.

 

[TomJ93]

I thought DB had been knocked out of the competition?

No to Abellio to get it.
They have no experience in this country operating an IC franchise. I accept they have done better than expected with Nothern, but WC is a totally different kettle of fish.

Arriva have done, frankly an awful job with XC. I hear staff morale is very low, the trolley is a ridiculous service to have on XC. They seem to be unwilling to invest any money in their current franchise, I can't see them offering to pay for the final remaining 390s to be lengthened unlike beardy.

Keep Virgin I say, sure they can improve but give them 15 years to do it.

Can't they keep the original time frame for re franchising but just leave the extra time between them taking over? If VT retain it there will be no problems what so ever! I know people think if they lost it they wouldn't put in the work and the service would go down hill, but the same staff will be there so they should keep the same level of service.

I think this is the DFT meddling unneccesarily.

 

[nedchester]

I seem to remember stating on here (I think?) that when WSMR was shut down that one of the reasons stated for the withdrawal of the WSMR was that WSMR had been told that the moderation of competition due early 2012 would not happen until 2013 due to the extension of the Virgin franchise. Rumour was that WSMR would have been helped into profit by being able to set down/pick up at places like Wolverhampton.

I was told there was no way this would happen and then a few months down the line look what happens?!

 

[driver9000]

No to Abellio to get it.
They have no experience in this country operating an IC franchise. I accept they have done better than expected with Nothern, but WC is a totally different kettle of fish.

Neither did Virgin, Sea Containers, Prism or any of the other franchise holders at the beginning - Intercity or regional.

I'd rather see Serco/Abellio running the West Coast over First or Stagecoach who would no doubt strip away or vastly reduce certain features of the service to save a few pounds. At least Abellio is a rail operator at heart.

 

[EWS 58038]

I thought DB had been knocked out of the competition?

No to Abellio to get it.
They have no experience in this country operating an IC franchise. I accept they have done better than expected with Nothern, but WC is a totally different kettle of fish.

Abellio does... It's the InterCity operator and High speed operator in The Netherlands, so unlike a bus company playing with trains, Abellio is, and always has been a rail company formed out of another rail company with very skilled staff who do exactly know how to run an Intercity Franchise.

Furthermore, the WestCoast Franchise is a lot easier to handle then a large network with a lot of small trains on rural routes.

But if you feel a bus operator would be better, then please do so... but do not forget that Stagecoach, First and National express screwed up on their rail businesses in recent years and I haven't seen Abellio doing that.

 

[ivanhoe]

It makes me laugh how many posters have preferences for different TOCS. I could put a bit of spin like everytime I have used Cross Country (Arriva) the train has turned up on time, the staff have been good. The fact that I usually only use them to get from Leicester to Nuneaton and return is I suppose is irrelevant.

Everytime I use EMT to go to London there has been no problems. There were no problems when it was run by National Express. Indeed, I would argue that National Express set the standard for which EMT have marginally improved!

I have nothing but praise for London Midland. Their trains are good, their staff are great and I have had no problems when I have used them.

Virgin Staff are fine , their trains are 'okay' but if they were to lose their Franchise, then I would not notice anything as long as their services ran to timetable.

There we have it then, does it really make any difference which Bus Company runs the trains

 

[WatcherZero]

It sounds like both a Dft cockup of not thinking radically enough for Ministers/consultation responses when drafting the ITT and possibly also the four bidders expressing something radically different in their franchise aspirations to Dft expectations (either more radical or less radical, impossible to know).

From the articles its implied their consulting on the draft ITT so there probably wouldnt be a rerun of the prequalification round. Will be interesting if theyve given Virgin any concessions for the extended franchise.

Something to note and I dont have any sources or details, but a quote I saw last week was that the PTE's had won the argument with Hammond for greater control of rail franchises possibly including control of stations. If that were true then there would be a significant change to the conditions in the franchise consultation and potential operator franchise aspirations.

 

[WestCoast]

There we have it then, does it really make any difference which Bus Company runs the trains

51% of the Virgin Rail Group has no affiliation with buses, it does have an airline though.

Well, you could argue that Arriva have downgraded CrossCountry by removing the "shops" and putting a mediocre trolley service in - and longer distance passengers do notice a difference.

The same occured with GNER, when NXEC took over the standard declined rapidly.

So it isn't always true that a different company makes no difference to the experience. It can especially affect intangible things, such as staff morale and levels of motivation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

if you feel a bus operator would be better, then please do so... but do not forget that Stagecoach, First and National express screwed up on their rail businesses in recent years and I haven't seen Abellio doing that.

You obviously respect your employer and I too think NS is an excellent operator. But in the fragmented business of UK TOCs, it's often down to the DfT as to how well you perform. The amount of people complaining about Northern's second-rate stock is enormous, a fair percentage of the general public just aren't aware it's the DfT that is causing this. As such, Northern's stock doesn't have a good reputation, although their staff and customer service does.

I'd agree that NX and First have made some screw ups but I'd say Stagecoach were more respected as a trustworthy operator. Some criticize them but they haven't really had a major screw up like NX.

 

[TomJ93]

Neither did Virgin, Sea Containers, Prism or any of the other franchise holders at the beginning - Intercity or regional.

I'd rather see Serco/Abellio running the West Coast over First or Stagecoach who would no doubt strip away or vastly reduce certain features of the service to save a few pounds. At least Abellio is a rail operator at heart.

Nobody had UK experience to begin with.

Abellio does... It's the InterCity operator and High speed operator in The Netherlands..

I said within the UK. Different market etc etc.

I see no reason VT don't deserve to retain the franchise, and as i've said they will lengthen the remaining 390s from their own pockets, surely that alone is enough of a reason to give it to them.

I also think the DFT is splitting the routes into Scotland, otherwise I doubt all the messing about in 2007 would have happened. The bidding for the WCML and ECML will be very interesting indeed.

I think the Virgin part of the company will keep Stagecoach's cost cutting at a minimal, Virgin are the only 'pizazz' left within the industry in my opinion, I don't want to see it become just another normally ran line.

 

[route:oxford]

Socialists and the Unions are always demanding that the country returns to a state run railway system. That's what exactly what Arriva would bring.

Personally, I quite like the idea of Ryanair obtaining the franchise in a joint venture with say Transport Scotland.

 

[Nym]

So you'd like having no seats and walk up fares on peak to be quadrupled?

 

[route:oxford]

So you'd like having no seats and walk up fares on peak to be quadrupled?

Over the past 12 months, name one Ryanair flight that was full to standing...

Some fares will no doubt be controlled as they are at present, others will move to control demand.

 

[Nym]

Over the past 12 months, name one Ryanair flight that was full to standing...

Some fares will no doubt be controlled as they are at present, others will move to control demand.

Name one FR flight where the IATA, ICAO, EU or CAA allow passengers to stand?

 

[route:oxford]

Name one FR flight where the IATA, ICAO, EU or CAA allow passengers to stand?

Exactly. So what was the point of the "No Seats" complaint over Ryanair.

 

[Nym]

FR's desire to fit in as many passengers as possible with little regard for passenger comfort, or practicaility. 1st class on ICWC would mean, "A chance of a seat" under FR's rule. No seats for 2nd because it takes up too much space. The only reason FR use seats is because they are required to by law.

 

[route:oxford]

FR's desire to fit in as many passengers as possible with little regard for passenger comfort, or practicaility. 1st class on ICWC would mean, "A chance of a seat" under FR's rule. No seats for 2nd because it takes up too much space. The only reason FR use seats is because they are required to by law.

So the DfT would micro-manage seats as well as stock type. What's new?

 

[WestCoast]

FR's desire to fit in as many passengers as possible with little regard for passenger comfort, or practicaility.

The future's bright, the future's Ryanair West Coast. They'd probably do a better job than some of the bidders....

Interestingly, Ryanair is not the worst airline seating I've encountered, that joint accolade goes to Spanair and some bizarre Turkish airline called Turkuaz. I was in pain!

 

[Nym]

Not to mention of course, Viking Airlines, Viking Hellas, Fly GlobeSpan (now bankrupt) and several others that used to fly out of Terminal Two at MAN...

Although PIA's seating is bad, but thats for a different reason.

 

[WestCoast]

Not to mention of course, Viking Airlines, Viking Hellas, Fly GlobeSpan (now bankrupt) and several others that used to fly out of Terminal Two at MAN...

Most of the charter airlines (ahem..TOM, TCX e.t.c) on the routes up to 5 hours (ish) are also pretty bad if your on a 320/757. :cry:

They make legroom on even the tightest of rail seating look quite spacious!

 

[Nym]

Hence why I don't tend to fly with TOM, TCX, MON, etc any more. Actually, I don't tend to fly anywhere any more...

 

[BrummyBoy]

Personally i consider Ryan Air seating to be one of the best, unlike Thomas Cook.

 

[umontu]

Moving back to rail as opposed to flight.
Northern have done a good job, speaking as a regular user, I have only two complaints.
One the rolling stock (As stated that's out of their hands)
Two my local station, it is crying out for a ticket machine and then I'd be happy with it.

How does Mersey rail compare these days, they had an ott touted rule on putting feet on seats from memory but that seems to be all I remember from circa 2007.


A case for Abellio?

 

[tbtc]

TBH I reckon any big organisation would be able to take on the West Coast franchise. You have the trains and service patterns dictated by DFT. You have the staff on TUPE conditions from the previous TOC. You have the stock owned by a ROSCO. You don't need any engineering experience, any transport experience, just the ability to manage a contracted out service.

 

[WatcherZero]

First and National Express may have chosen the wrong time to bank on the anonymity of franchise bids.

The Department for Transport intends to look closely at the previous operational performance of rail franchise bidders and 'stress test business models'.

Transport Briefing

 

[All Line Rover]

First and National Express may have chosen the wrong time to bank on the anonymity of franchise bids.


Transport Briefing

You see that's the thing about Virgin Trains. Now I'm not old enough to remember the first few years of privatisation, but I'm sure Virgin Trains are the only InterCity TOC who have not had any severe problems, such as extreme financial difficulties. Their punctuality wasn't great at first, but now it is excellent - it's not as if the DfT can complain about punctuality/reliability, as Virgin's statistics are better than the East Coast franchise, who are run by the government themselves!

Virgin are willing to PAY to bring in longer trains, they have good customer services, they LISTEN to the opinions of their passengers and staff, they pay their staff well and the "atmosphere" among their staff (which is detectable) seems to be much better than XC. Virgin have done nothing wrong, so why take the franchise away from them?

NOTE: Please don't argue about Virgin introducing Pendolinos/Voyagers. In my opinion it was an excellent idea. They were the first generation of this "new type" of train, so you can't expect everything to be perfect. Their only downfall with the Voyagers was not anticipating so many customers!

 

[87015]

You see that's the thing about Virgin Trains. Now I'm not old enough to remember the first few years of privatisation, but I'm sure Virgin Trains are the only InterCity TOC who have not had any severe problems, such as extreme financial difficulties. Their punctuality wasn't great at first, but now it is excellent - it's not as if the DfT can complain about punctuality/reliability, as Virgin's statistics are better than the East Coast franchise, who are run by the government themselves!
![/I]

Both franchises failed for various reasons and had to be re-negotiated, think that constitutes some severe problems. They might have got a good deal for themselves and their shareholders out of it, but there is a lot of bad taste over how they went about it to this day in various places in the industry.

 

[swt_passenger]

...but I'm sure Virgin Trains are the only InterCity TOC who have not had any severe problems, such as extreme financial difficulties.

...Virgin are willing to PAY to bring in longer trains.

Virgin's West Coast operation was reduced to a 'costs plus' management contract as part of the WCML upgrade chaos - because the original sums no longer added up. It was reverted to a normal contract only a couple of years ago.

Furthermore, it has been widely reported that Virgin wanted extra subsidy from the DfT to bring in the longer trains. This is precisely why the Pendolino extension contract was let to a separate company (albeit still Virgin Group), and why the trains weren't going to be available until April 2012. Much of what they have said in their press releases, eg about the possibility of the new Pendolinos being introduced early, just doesn't reflect what was in the ITT for the contract, and the train's build calendar.

There are probably plenty of people within DfT who have had enough of VT - I wouldn't bet much on them still being around whenever the new franchise is eventually awarded...

 

[All Line Rover]

There are probably plenty of people within DfT who have had enough of VT - I wouldn't bet much on them still being around whenever the new franchise is eventually awarded...

I bet there's plenty of people within the DfT who have had enough of National Express too! (Although I see no reason why they can't be allowed to continue running c2c - it's the one excellent, but admittedly simple operation they have)