Wennington Station.

[DJBut]

Northern will be running a 'special operation' next week whilst the bridge is repaired.
In short, passengers for Wennington from the east will need to change at Bentham and join a bus which will call at Wennington (pick up) and Lancaster (and then onwards to Carnforth)
The link for the temporary timetable is

https://www.northhernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/templates/N7/2023-01-23-to-2023-01-27-1674210965.pdf

This timetable optimistically runs for just a week but no doubt could be extended.

 

[30907]

Typo in the link, try:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/s...es/N7/2023-01-23-to-2023-01-27-1674210965.pdf
This replaces the present situation where there is a bus just from Wennington to Lancaster and pax from the East have to go through to Lancs and back.
I'd be surprised if the bus makes it to Carnforth very often - or even beyond Wennington at times.

 

[tbtc]

Since there are a number of stations with fewer than one departing passenger for each service that stops there (like Wennington ), we’ve had a few discussions over the years and the same points get raised over and over, which is to be expected

One of the better arguments against closure is the claim that a lightly used station doesn’t “cost” very much to keep an unstaffed station open (just a bit of break fluid when the services slow down to serve it etc)

Obviously I’d dispute elements of that (e.g. even if we aren’t spending anything on the upkeep of a station, it still needs regular safety checks etc, there’s the penalty to the passengers on board trains to slow their journeys down etc)

However, the “It’s not really costing THAT much” argument seems a fair point, what with nobody knowing the true cost of keeping this land available to the public (e.g. is there insurance too worry about?)

The problem is that, when a station like Wennington has a problem that would cost more than the annual ticket sales/ revenue from the station then the “It’s not really costing THAT much” debaters go strangely silent and just expect Network Rail to pay whatever it takes to bring everything up to standard…

…there’s tens of billions of pounds already on the NR Credit Card so a five figure sum for the couple thousand annual journeys starting at Wennington can be seen as just another drop in the ocean… an ocean swelled by lots of “little” expenses like this one which cumulatively reach quite a large sum …

…Maybe someone will point out that “it’s a fraction of the cost of HS2” or use some other spurious metric but my point is that the kind of people who excuse basket case stations/ lines on the grounds that they don’t need much upkeep never seem to reassess their views when these stations/ lines suddenly large sums of money spending on them (relative to the number of departing passengers)

Maybe we should have a Naughty List of stations/ lines that are on their “final warning”… we’ll keep subsidising them for now but with the proviso that the plug will be pulled once the cost of keeping it going suddenly rises due to this like failing infrastructure

It’d be a bit like a family currently being too sentimental to euthanise an elderly incontinent household pet but with the agreement that any illness/ calamity requiring significant vet bills will see the animal put to sleep instead… keeping your temperamental car on the road until it fails it’s MOT or gets into a Road Traffic Collision that make it uneconomic to keep going

Or, rather, if this current problem isn’t enough to make you appraise the future of a station with just half a dozen departing passengers a day then would there ever be a line in the sand, or must we keep spaffing money on these lightly used stations forever because that’s what we’ve always done?

 

[zwk500]

However, the “It’s not really costing THAT much” argument seems a fair point, what with nobody knowing the true cost of keeping this land available to the public (e.g. is there insurance too worry about?)

The problem is that, when a station like Wennington has a problem that would cost more than the annual ticket sales/ revenue from the station then the “It’s not really costing THAT much” debaters go strangely silent and just expect Network Rail to pay whatever it takes to bring everything up to standard…

To be fair, nobody has an accurate idea of the true costs of each station, line and crossover. We have a fairly good idea of the rough costs of what a typical station like this would really cost though. However this problem 1. should never have occurred because the contractors should have done the job properly and 2. should be able to be fixed without too much fuss if the bridge hasn't deteriorated too far.

Talk of putting in foot crossings or new bridges and accesses is obscuring the actual problem.

Maybe we should have a Naughty List of stations/ lines that are on their “final warning”… we’ll keep subsidising them for now but with the proviso that the plug will be pulled once the cost of keeping it going suddenly rises due to this like failing infrastructure

There's potentially something in this, however I think if you've reached the decision that it's not worth a major cost then perhaps it would be better to amend the closure process to allow NR and the relevant TOCs to effectively give a 5-year 'use it or lose it' period (timescale scalable). If usage doesn't improve, or the council can't show a credible plan to uplift it like housing development, then the station will close. This would be better than just hanging on until something snaps as it would allow people to prepare for the closure and wouldn't leave people suddenly cut off. If the service is going to be withdrawn, it should be done in a reasonable manner rather than just crossing your fingers the gaffa tape will hold and then walking away when it fails.

 

[Prince of Wale]

If Wennington closed would there be much point in keeping the line open?

 

[zwk500]

If Wennington closed would there be much point in keeping the line open?

There's through Leeds-Morecambe trains, and Bentham and Giggleswick serve large villages/small towns (even if Giggleswick is a bit of a trek to Settle). You've also got the WCRC test runs and access to Hellifield for their S&C excursions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Wennington closed would there be much point in keeping the line open?

The line's value is questionable anyway. If I could swap it for Hellifield to Clitheroe (to access the S&C from the North West) and extending Yorkshire services from Preston to Lancaster hourly, I absolutely would.

As for the big cost, shouldn't the wilfully incompetent contractor be paying for that? They were paid to fix the bridge and didn't.

 

[zwk500]

The line's value is questionable anyway. If I could swap it for Hellifield to Clitheroe (to access the S&C from the NW) and extending Yorkshire services from Preston to Lancaster hourly, I absolutely would.

It's one of those 'wouldn't really be missed' but also 'would cost more to change' lines.

As for the big cost, shouldn't the wilfully incompetent contractor be paying for that? They were paid to fix the bridge and didn't.

Depends on the contract, and whether the contractor still exists. Often the resolution to substandard work is that the contractor comes back and fixes it for no additional payment, rather than them paying for any costs incurred.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's one of those 'wouldn't really be missed' but also 'would cost more to change' lines.

Would those two things cost more? They would just require two additional unit diagrams for both of them, cheaper than maintaining a whole line.

Depends on the contract, and whether the contractor still exists. Often the resolution to substandard work is that the contractor comes back and fixes it for no additional payment, rather than them paying for any costs incurred.

That's fine too - either way, NR shouldn't be paying for someone else's bodge.

 

[zwk500]

Would those two things cost more? They would just require two additional unit diagrams for both of them, cheaper than maintaining a whole line.

There's the cost of the closure process, of course, and then there's the ongoing costs of the continuing maintenance liabilities like bridges, viaducts and tunnels (especially if you retain the land for rebuilding the line at a later date). You're also not saving anything on signalling as the line doesn't have any. The linespeed isn't high so maintenance from the P-way teams won't be that significant either. AFAICT you save on the manually-controlled pointwork at either end and a couple of patrols.

I think a 1tp2h Blackburn-Wennington-Lancaster service filling in the gaps between the Leeds-Morecambe is worth trialling to see if an approximately hourly service to Lancaster and a connection to Leeds fosters some better use. however this would force WCRC to use the WCML to access Hellifield as the block section takes about 40-45mins to traverse. And resignalling really isn't going to be justified for this line (at least until on-train integrity is allowed).

 

[skyhigh]

As someone who works the line frequently, I can provide some detail.

It's the metal itself which has been deemed unsafe, due to contractors using filler rather than welding when repairs have been needed in the (recent) past.

As for the big cost, shouldn't the wilfully incompetent contractor be paying for that? They were paid to fix the bridge and didn't.

I think something may have gone awry in the mess room news cycle here - rotten wood is definitely the issue. It might have been compounded by the use of filler on the wood rather than replacing the rot, but there's nothing wrong with the metal (and even then, the work done might have been specified as the bare minimum).

 

[urbophile]

It might be a lightly used rural line, and the stations serve only tiny settlements, but it is the only reasonably direct route between the Leeds/Bradford conurbation and Lancaster/Morecambe/the Lakes. It obviously hasn't the same tourist draw as the S & C, but the trains have been reasonably full (albeit not crowded) in my experience so I assume most of the passengers don't come from Wennington. Morecambe is allegedly beginning a renaissance as a tourist resort (The Eden Centre of the North is imminent) and one of its largest markets must be urban West Yorkshire.

Until the 1960s there was a regular commuter express between Morecambe and Leeds/Bradford. The days of top-hatted mill owners are long gone, as are the glory days of Morecambe as the slightly superior Alan-Bennett-approved alternative to Blackpool. But they have left behind an infrastructure which it would be criminal to abandon completely.

 

[DJBut]

Thanks urbophile, you beat me to it by seconds!

The railway industry is going to have to seriously address the access issues to Morecambe of the WCML, which is already rather congested between Lancaster and Carnforth.
Unless Morecambe is prepared to be overwhelmed by visitors' cars there will have to be an attractive/efficient rail alternative.
Yes there has been a significant increase in usage of the route via Wennington since the daily number of trains was increased, together with their quality.
Pacers provided good views but lousy ride quality on the remaining jointed track. Class 158s provide a much better ride.

 

[pdeaves]

Maybe we should have a Naughty List of stations/ lines that are on their “final warning”… we’ll keep subsidising them for now but with the proviso that the plug will be pulled once the cost of keeping it going suddenly rises due to this like failing infrastructure

I think that idea has some merit, but like many things is open to abuse. Stop paying for maintenance, then the cost of keeping it going suddenly rises when (e.g.) a broken bridge needs replacing; a bridge that should have been maintained but wasn't.

 

[zwk500]

I think that idea has some merit, but like many things is open to abuse. Stop paying for maintenance, then the cost of keeping it going suddenly rises when (e.g.) a broken bridge needs replacing; a bridge that should have been maintained but wasn't.

And also you'll just end up in more of these really awkward situations of emergency service provision for a few weeks until everything is sorted out.

Much better for everyone (especially passengers) to identify the stations most problematic in advance and give fair warning to use it or lose it. Then maintenance is carried on as usual until a firm decision is made and the process to closure can be planned in properly.

 

[tbtc]

Talk of putting in foot crossings or new bridges and accesses is obscuring the actual problem

True

There's potentially something in this, however I think if you've reached the decision that it's not worth a major cost then perhaps it would be better to amend the closure process to allow NR and the relevant TOCs to effectively give a 5-year 'use it or lose it' period (timescale scalable). If usage doesn't improve, or the council can't show a credible plan to uplift it like housing development, then the station will close.

Fair point but the problem here is that supporters of such a station/ line will never accept closure, at the end of any “trial” they’ll find new excuses…

Take Breich as an example. Only one departing passenger a day back in the DMU era.

People would claim that it was unfair to close it because it only had a service to Edinburgh in the morning rush hour and teatime return, it needed a proper service before we could assess it properly etc.

Now that the line has been electrified, it gets five times the passenger numbers it used to. But that’s five departing passengers a day spread between an hourly EMU to both Edinburgh and to Glasgow (all day long, so fewer than one departing passenger per four services stopping there).

So now can we close it? Ah, but what if we built ten thousand houses within walking distance, what if we slashed fares, what if… i don’t think some people will ever accept that a station is a dud

It might be a lightly used rural line, and the stations serve only tiny settlements, but it is the only reasonably direct route between the Leeds/Bradford conurbation and Lancaster/Morecambe/the Lakes

It’s about five minutes faster from Leeds to Lancaster/ Morecambe than Copy Pit, but with the significant difference that the Copy Pit route serves Bradford/ Burnley/ Blackburn and Preston rather than places like Wennington. Skipton and Keighley obviously aren’t tiny but still not in the same league as Preston etc

From central Bradford, it’s probably quicker to go via Copy Pit

Extend the Northern services currently terminating in Halifax through to Lancashire and you can serve a lot more passengers than the Bentham route with the DMUs freed up from the Bentham line

 

[zwk500]

Fair point but the problem here is that supporters of such a station/ line will never accept closure, at the end of any “trial” they’ll find new excuses…

Which is why you'd set out the criteria at the beginning of the evaluation period. I'd advocate a long period such as 5 years, so that by the end of it there can't be any 'what if' notions. I'd also advocate that the service for any station proposed for closure should have been a minimum of 1tph for at least 12/18 months prior to the evaluation period.

But we're getting off topic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks urbophile, you beat me to it by seconds!

The railway industry is going to have to seriously address the access issues to Morecambe of the WCML, which is already rather congested between Lancaster and Carnforth.
Unless Morecambe is prepared to be overwhelmed by visitors' cars there will have to be an attractive/efficient rail alternative.
Yes there has been a significant increase in usage of the route via Wennington since the daily number of trains was increased, together with their quality.
Pacers provided good views but lousy ride quality on the remaining jointed track. Class 158s provide a much better ride.

The alternative for most will be a bus up the Bay Gateway from the current (but expanded) Lancaster park and ride site. By rail I guess you could see a case for 4 rather than 2 car services but I doubt demand will skyrocket any more than it does at Blackpool Pleasure Beach.

The problem with it with regard to Leeds is infrequency, and Lancaster not being a very big place.

 

[urbophile]

T

It’s about five minutes faster from Leeds to Lancaster/ Morecambe than Copy Pit, but with the significant difference that the Copy Pit route serves Bradford/ Burnley/ Blackburn and Preston rather than places like Wennington. Skipton and Keighley obviously aren’t tiny but still not in the same league as Preston etc

From central Bradford, it’s probably quicker to go via Copy Pit

Extend the Northern services currently terminating in Halifax through to Lancashire and you can serve a lot more passengers than the Bentham route with the DMUs freed up from the Bentham line

I didn't realise that and I take your point. However, there are few enough east-west lines in this country at the moment; I hardly think it's a good idea to reduce the number of them. Especially as the Bentham line carries far more passengers than a parliamentary service would.

 

[30907]

It’s about five minutes faster from Leeds to Lancaster/ Morecambe than Copy Pit, but with the significant difference that the Copy Pit route serves Bradford/ Burnley/ Blackburn and Preston rather than places like Wennington. Skipton and Keighley obviously aren’t tiny but still not in the same league as Preston etc

From central Bradford, it’s probably quicker to go via Copy Pit

Leeds-Lancs is 1h50, Leeds-Preston 1h45, so it's 15min difference on a through service.
But this thread is about Wennington station and its future, which would make a minimal difference to the line either way. And we are talking about a repair costing maybe 5 figures which should last 20 years, so max £5000 pa, plus a RRB for some weeks requiring a minibus /taxi for that period.
If you were talking a 6- figure sum and an effectively useless station (Tees Valley as a random example...) it would be more sensible to do a Polesworth job. And at 7 figures....

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Why can't there be a temporary barrow crossing? Given that we are not talking about accessing platforms at Watford Junction by walking across the WCML here. Half a dozen trains per day, all of which stop at the station anyway. What are the respective costs of a bus driver and vehicle (assuming only one required) compared to a crossing supervisor (with or without school children lollipop) to meet and greet each of the trains and a van to sit in to keep warm in-between?

 

[Elecman]

Not all trains stop at Wennington though

 

[InkyScrolls]

Not all trains stop at Wennington though

They do. There are STP diagrams out at the moment with down trains booked to pass, but this is only due to the footbridge issue.

 

[Elecman]

Test trans don’t

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can't there be a temporary barrow crossing? Given that we are not talking about accessing platforms at Watford Junction by walking across the WCML here. Half a dozen trains per day, all of which stop at the station anyway. What are the respective costs of a bus driver and vehicle (assuming only one required) compared to a crossing supervisor (with or without school children lollipop) to meet and greet each of the trains and a van to sit in to keep warm in-between?

To be honest a 5mph speed restriction on approach and through the station (drive on sight) and a permanent one would probably be an improvement on the bridge as it'd make the station accessible. A quick look on RTT shows the only trains using it that aren't the stopping passenger service are West Coast Railways, and I'm sure they can cope.

 

[Elecman]

To be honest a 5mph speed restriction on approach and through the station (drive on sight) and a permanent one would probably be an improvement on the bridge as it'd make the station accessible. A quick look on RTT shows the only trains using it that aren't the stopping passenger service are West Coast Railways, and I'm sure they can cope.

That would require going through the Network Change process and would almost certainly be objected too

 

[InkyScrolls]

To be honest a 5mph speed restriction on approach and through the station (drive on sight) and a permanent one would probably be an improvement on the bridge as it'd make the station accessible. A quick look on RTT shows the only trains using it that aren't the stopping passenger service are West Coast Railways, and I'm sure they can cope.

And even WCR stop at Wennington (and Bentham) occasionally. Not sure why!

Test trans don’t

Obviously not, but they are in the overwhelming minority and are not part of the usual WTT.

 

[zwk500]

To be honest a 5mph speed restriction on approach and through the station (drive on sight) and a permanent one would probably be an improvement on the bridge as it'd make the station accessible. A quick look on RTT shows the only trains using it that aren't the stopping passenger service are West Coast Railways, and I'm sure they can cope.

A barrow crossing still presents a trip hazard and potential sticking point for prams etc with the gaps for the wheel flanges.
There's an argument for temporary authority to do this but the industry likes its processes and the regulators don't like additional level crossings.

And even WCR stop at Wennington (and Bentham) occasionally. Not sure why!

They run the odd charter for the Lune Valley Trust, IIRC, but none of their test or positioning moves stop in section.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Test trans don’t

The person with the lollipop, or in this case red and green (or whatever) flags can stop people crossing. Or test trains can be diverted away for a temporary period. Or test train drivers, being well paid professionals, can read their weekly notice and under TSR restrictions stop and whistle at the station. Or test trains can be operated outside the passenger service operating window (potential problem there would be opening times of manual boxes eg at Settle Junction?).

Honestly, 101 reasons why something with minimal risk can't be done instead of finding the one reason why it can and should be done.

As has already been stated this is an area where station foot crossings abound including on the same route at Giggleswick.

 

[blackfive460]

Why can't there be a temporary barrow crossing? Given that we are not talking about accessing platforms at Watford Junction by walking across the WCML here. Half a dozen trains per day, all of which stop at the station anyway. What are the respective costs of a bus driver and vehicle (assuming only one required) compared to a crossing supervisor (with or without school children lollipop) to meet and greet each of the trains and a van to sit in to keep warm in-between?

Unlike at Giggleswick, one of the problems with having a barrow crossing at Wennington is sighting.
There's a reasonably good view of trains approaching from Bentham but there's an overbridge and a sharp curve in the other direction and don't forget, while there aren't many passenger trains stopping there, other traffic which doesn't stop also uses the line from time to time.