Welsh announcements

[jones_bangor]

It's a load of patronising nonsense to have Gaelic signage in places like Airdrie - Gaelic was never the main language - pure tokenism

This is clearly a big issue for you. As a visitor to Scotland, it seemed very positive....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

But it's completely and utterley pointless in a place like Airdrie, the only place it will have any real relevance is further north into the wilds of the Highlands and Western Isles, not the tower blocks of Glasgow and the towns across the Central Belt...

 

[ainsworth74]

As a visitor to Scotland, it seemed very positive....

As another visitor to Scotland it seemed to me to be utterly pointless outside of the highlands.

 

[tbtc]

This is clearly a big issue for you. As a visitor to Scotland, it seemed very positive....

Its complete tokenism to have Gaelic signs in Airdrie, I'm sure the local council's diversity officer will be able to tick a box but it's meaningless to the locals.

At least the Latin signs at Wallsend are going to attract a couple of tourists - no doubt more Latin speakers on Tyneside than Gaelic speakers in the Monklands

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Its complete tokenism to have Gaelic signs in Airdrie, I'm sure the local council's diversity officer will be able to tick a box but it's meaningless to the locals.

At least the Latin signs at Wallsend are going to attract a couple of tourists - no doubt more Latin speakers on Tyneside than Gaelic speakers in the Monklands

I not quite so sure. There are some people who "have the Gaelic" in the Airdrie area and there is provision for Gaelic in schools. OK the main unit is in Condorrat but there's some demand for more provision locally.

http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5561

Gaelic pre-five provision
The authority also supports a Gaelic playgroup and parent/toddler group based at Victoria primary school in Airdrie. A Gaelic playgroup is being established in the Cumbernauld area. The Gaelic national organisation Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich (CNSA) is closely involved with the authority. At the moment consideration is being given to a further extension of Gaelic pre-five facilities.

And don't forget about the National Mod being held in Airdrie in 1993!

 

[merlodlliw]

Out of interest, what politicians are interfering here though? As I recall, Arriva made a commitment to provide a Welsh-language service in their franchise bid; there was no legal obligation for them to do so. Like a lot of companies they see it as good customer service, presumably. Arriva themselves chose to put Welsh first, as far as I can see.

I think most agree, WG were sold a PUP with Arriva no growth, It may well have been in the bid, but that bid of 15 years was to faceless people in DFT.
Now any bid will find it compulsory to provide Dual Language, as WG money is involved.

 

[sefyllian]

Now any bid will find it compulsory to provide Dual Language, as WG money is involved.

Quite possibly, as a broader Language Act has come into force since 2003, but since Arriva seem to be quite happily providing the service of their own accord anyway, I doubt that's a problem for anyone.

Yup - pure politics

Yes, it is in a sense. In the same sense that, say, providing the NHS or indeed subsidising the railways is politics. In this case, the Welsh people have democratically elected a government that is implementing a policy the public widely supports. That's how politics works (or at least, should work!). You seem to be implying that the political aspect is somehow wrong or improper, but I just don't see it like that.

I don't know much about the situation in Scotland, but there seems to be similar high levels of support for Gaelic provision there too.

 

[merlodlliw]

Quite possibly, as a broader Language Act has come into force since 2003, but since Arriva seem to be quite happily providing the service of their own accord anyway, I doubt that's a problem for anyone.


Yes, it is in a sense. In the same sense that, say, providing the NHS or indeed subsidising the railways is politics. In this case, the Welsh people have democratically elected a government that is implementing a policy the public widely supports. That's how politics works (or at least, should work!). You seem to be implying that the political aspect is somehow wrong or improper, but I just don't see it like that.

I don't know much about the situation in Scotland, but there seems to be similar high levels of support for Gaelic provision there too.

Like many PLCs they will provide what is expected without forcing it on them
there are some who want the private sector forced like the statutory sector is now, persuading is the best is way,
Out of interest S4C dropped its Welsh Language HD service, few if any miss it, or even watched it,but thats another story.

 

[tbtc]

You seem to be implying that the political aspect is somehow wrong or improper, but I just don't see it like that

I think that the railways are there for a purpose and that purpose isn't to try to forge a national identity/ encourage people to learn another language/ give priority to 5% of a population over 80% of that population/ promote diversity etc.

We could use the railways as a political tool for many things (regular tannoy announcements reminding people to eat five portions of fruit and veg a day, posters inside trains promoting prostrate check ups...) but that's not what the railways are for.

However it appears that I am in a minority on here. Maybe I should claim special treatment?

 

[merlodlliw]

However it appears that I am in a minority on here. Maybe I should claim special treatment?

[/QUOTE]

No TBTC you are not in a minority, you are a very well informed Scot


Bob

 

[krus_aragon]

Again, we are getting history lessons that are of no relevance to the question of why we get Welsh announcements (which 20% of the Welsh population understand) before we get English announcements (which 95% of the Welsh population understand).

In the case of written signs: I believe it's regarded as a fact by experts in the field that if when reading you come across a block of writing in a language that you're not familiar with you will tend to 'skip down' and look for a language that you do know. Thus someone not conversant in Welsh will generally scan down past a Welsh portion of text to find the English. In the opposite case, where someone who is conversant in Welsh looks at a sign where the English is given precedence then they will read all the English before getting to the Welsh (unless they make a concious decision to skip it). The latter case certainly matches my personal experience.

This does not, admittedly, apply to audio or scrolling text announcements. I am not aware of an apolitical reason for doing these in any particular order.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

No TBTC you are not in a minority, you are a very well informed Scot
Bob[/QUOTE]

If repeating the same thing over and over again is a definition of well informed you may be right. Unfortunately, simply repeating the same opinion does not make it any more informed than it was the first time it was used. The idea that because everyone can understand English is a good reason to ignore Welsh speakers is not only insulting but small minded in the extreme.

I know many English people who have settled in Wales and have made great efforts to learn the language to fully enjoy the community life around them. There are also the other kind who make no effort at all and spend most of their time complaining about Wales and the Welsh. English speakers are in no way deprived of their rights in Wales, they can still buy the Sun or Daily Mail;The Daily Record and The Scotsman and watch English language Television to their hearts' content. They are free to air their prejudices on a forum like this.

I would not go to England and expect that the authorities would go out of their way to provide me with services through the medium of the Welsh language. I would expect the lingua franca to be English although that is not always the case now in some parts of England where National and Local Government provide services in languages that are not native to these islands. Good luck to those who speak Urdu; Hindi; Punjabi and the rest but remember that the official language of England is English. In Wales there are two official languages, a situation quite common in other countries, even in Europe.

As far as 'politics' is concerned, we in Wales are in the same situation as everyone else and left to pick up the sizeable bill for aircraft carriers that have no aeroplanes to use them; the ongoing cost of foreign adventures and propping up the banks, whether we like it or not.

The additional cost of bi-lingual signs is negligible yet it is portrayed as being 'political' and 'costly'. It is neither, it is simply good manners

 

[Francis]

Welsh or some earlier version of it is the most ancient language of these Islands, so it deserves a bit of respect, even from the English!

I am English, but I enjoy going to Wales and part of the enjoyment is the different language and signs. You become aware that you are in a different country and culture.

I don't speak Welsh but I can decipher the place names. If you're on Cardiff it's intriguing to see the departure board reading Casnewydd, Y Fenni, Henffordd, Llanllieni, Llwydlo, Church Stretton, Amwythig, Cryw..... Manceinion Piccadilly.

Funny that some English cities translate: Bryste Temple Meads, Llundain Paddington, Lerpwl Lime St, but Birmingham New St defeats all attempts to find a Welsh equivalent.

 

[tbtc]

As far as 'politics' is concerned, we in Wales are in the same situation as everyone else and left to pick up the sizeable bill for aircraft carriers that have no aeroplanes to use them; the ongoing cost of foreign adventures and propping up the banks, whether we like it or not.

The additional cost of bi-lingual signs is negligible yet it is portrayed as being 'political' and 'costly'. It is neither, it is simply good manners

So your justification for the 5% of Welsh speakers having priority over the 80% of English speakers is because it doesn't cost much compared to overseas wars/ propping up banks/ building aircraft? I've seen some Strawman arguments, but..

The reality is that there have never been fewer Welsh speakers yet it seems that there's never been more money given to propping up the Welsh language. Fair enough, but the 5% shouldn't take priority.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Welsh or some earlier version of it is the most ancient language of these Islands, so it deserves a bit of respect, even from the English!
>

Funny that some English cities translate: Bryste Temple Meads, Llundain Paddington, Lerpwl Lime St, but Birmingham New St defeats all attempts to find a Welsh equivalent.

Many of these names are of great antiquity and some of the English names are corruptions of the earlier Brythonic / Welsh names. Some that spring readily to mind are Caerliwelydd (Carlisle); Caint (Kent); Henffordd (Hereford); Catraeth (Catterick); Dwfr (Dover) and Y Mynydd (Minehead). There are many more and it can be fun to 'de-corrupt' place names in England and Scotland. Often the key is in the topography of a given place.

As far as Birmingham is concerned, the city that we know grew from the Industrial Revolution. Prior to that it was not really a place of any significance until the Middle Ages and even then was a small market town divided between two counties. The name derives from Anglo Saxon but there would have been Brythonic names for its constituent parts, particularly on the Worcestershire side

 

[Trog]

I thought that the results of the last census demonstrated that the people of Wales had voted with their mouths and moved towards speaking English. Despite all the money spent on pushing Welsh.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

So your justification for the 5% of Welsh speakers having priority over the 80% of English speakers is because it doesn't cost much compared to overseas wars/ propping up banks/ building aircraft? I've seen some Strawman arguments, but..

Priority? Every official form in Wales is printed in English. It's not as if you have to ask for it which is not always the case in Welsh. Bilingual announcements also vary in that sometimes the English is used first. It is evident that you do not understand the importance of language, any language, to those who speak it. A recent stay in hospital was made easier because many of the staff were were Welsh speaking resulting in a more relaxed atmosphere. In the same way, great works of literature can never be wholly faithful to the original if translated because they come from a different tradition.

No, my 'justification' is that it is simply good manners, once the hallmark of the British but increasingly rare nowadays. Arriva Trains Wales have chosen to exercise good manners and for that I applaud them.

If you don't like the Welsh language, why not just say so and stop putting up spurious arguments. You can play with percentages and demographics for as long as you wish but the fact remains that Welsh is a living language. Neither should you dismiss history as being of no consequence. If that were the case, the Norman conquest of England didn't matter because it was still England and Culloden was an irrelevance.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Priority? Every official form in Wales is printed in English. It's not as if you have to ask for it which is not always the case in Welsh. Bilingual announcements also vary in that sometimes the English is used first. It is evident that you do not understand the importance of language, any language, to those who speak it. A recent stay in hospital was made easier because many of the staff were were Welsh speaking resulting in a more relaxed atmosphere. In the same way, great works of literature can never be wholly faithful to the original if translated because they come from a different tradition.

No, my 'justification' is that it is simply good manners, once the hallmark of the British but increasingly rare nowadays. Arriva Trains Wales have chosen to exercise good manners and for that I applaud them.

If you don't like the Welsh language, why not just say so and stop putting up spurious arguments. You can play with percentages and demographics for as long as you wish but the fact remains that Welsh is a living language. Neither should you dismiss history as being of no consequence. If that were the case, the Norman conquest of England didn't matter because it was still England and Culloden was an irrelevance.

Well said, couldn't have put it better myself!

 

[tbtc]

Priority? Every official form in Wales is printed in English. It's not as if you have to ask for it which is not always the case in Welsh. Bilingual announcements also vary in that sometimes the English is used first. It is evident that you do not understand the importance of language, any language, to those who speak it. A recent stay in hospital was made easier because many of the staff were were Welsh speaking resulting in a more relaxed atmosphere. In the same way, great works of literature can never be wholly faithful to the original if translated because they come from a different tradition.

No, my 'justification' is that it is simply good manners, once the hallmark of the British but increasingly rare nowadays. Arriva Trains Wales have chosen to exercise good manners and for that I applaud them.

If you don't like the Welsh language, why not just say so and stop putting up spurious arguments. You can play with percentages and demographics for as long as you wish but the fact remains that Welsh is a living language. Neither should you dismiss history as being of no consequence. If that were the case, the Norman conquest of England didn't matter because it was still England and Culloden was an irrelevance.

Spurious arguments?

In my experience of Wales, the minority language (5%) gets priority at every station I've paid attention at (with the exception of Cardiff Queen Street, there the volume of trains means there's no time for bi-lingual announcements).

The justification for this appears to be something to do with Culloden, Bankers Bonuses, English Immigration, encouraging people to learn a new language, the Norman Conquest...? And I'm the one with the spurious arguments?

What the Nationalists fail to understand is that there's more to a place than its language - like 99% of Scots I can speak no Gaelic - and the railway is no place to try to push their agendas.

 

[Gareth]

Do 5% of Wales residents really not understand English. Even in places where Welsh is the language for everyday use, I'd find it amazing that anyone would grow up in Britain and not speak English fluently.

Also, I don't get the priority thing. It sounds more of a childish 'my' language comes first issue. Having been on trains with billingual and even trilingual announcements, it really doesn't mater to me where English comes. If it's first, I'll hear the information I need to hear a few seconds earlier than if it was second or third. In the end, if such a thing is to be implemented, it should be consistent. I can't stand the Welsh road signs where English is sometimes at the top and sometimes at the bottom. Choose one scheme and stick to it.

 

[Hyphen]

Do 5% of Wales residents really not understand English. Even in places where Welsh is the language for everyday use, I'd find it amazing that anyone would grow up in Britain and not speak English fluently.

When I moved to Wales for university (Swansea) I met a couple of people in my first year who came from predominantly Welsh-speaking areas and weren't entirely fluent in English. Don't get me wrong, they had a good grasp (presumably through school), but there were many words and phrases (especially idioms) that they struggled with. Essentially not too different from anybody else for whom English isn't their mother tongue.

I can't stand the Welsh road signs where English is sometimes at the top and sometimes at the bottom. Choose one scheme and stick to it.

That's down to the decision of the local authority producing the signs. Certainly in South-East Wales and as far West as Swansea, it's English first as it represents the percentages of Welsh speakers. Further West into Carms and Pembs it's Welsh first, though I'm not convinced as to why!

 

[merlodlliw]

this article was in todays North Wales regional Daily Post, it makes intreresting reading,http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...ection-slammed-by-campaigners-55578-32883149/.

Its too long to put up word for word, here is the header


"LANGUAGE campaigners described a Welsh Government decision to reject a new set of rules requiring public and some private bodies to provide a level of service in Welsh as “bad news.”

Thirty-seven standards proposed by Welsh language commissioner Meri Huws were rejected as too complicated and unreasonable by Welsh language minister Leighton Andrews."

In my own personal opinion, I agree with the Minister, Private Companies should not be forced,& I speak Welsh.

Bob

 

[kieron]

In my own personal opinion, I agree with the Minister, Private Companies should not be forced,& I speak Welsh.

Most of the external organisations which would have been affected by the draft standards are ones which work closely with the government as it is, such as utilities, public transport companies and social housing providers. I don't suppose the likes of UK Mail would have been overjoyed at the prospect of more regulation, though.

I suppose Leighton Andrews will drop the whole thing now. It clearly wasn't a Labour policy.

 

[merlodlliw]

Most of the external organisations which would have been affected by the draft standards are ones which work closely with the government as it is, such as utilities, public transport companies and social housing providers. I don't suppose the likes of UK Mail would have been overjoyed at the prospect of more regulation, though.

I suppose Leighton Andrews will drop the whole thing now. It clearly wasn't a Labour policy.

Having read the 37 proposed standards, I am not surprised they have been thrown out,totally unworkable. The Highly paid Commissioner who drew up the standards with her WG staff
should remember she is no longer Chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) pressure group, but now supposedly independent of all Political & Pressure Groups,in my opinion

 

[jones_bangor]

Having read the 37 proposed standards, I am not surprised they have been thrown out,totally unworkable.

I'm afraid the trendy & wealthy Cardiff "siarad Cymraeg" S4C types have completely lost their link with reality, which is frustrating for those in the "real" world.

Hopefully there'll be more focus on usage rather than tokenism and unread translation in mk 2, which I believe the Minister is obliged to eventually produce.

 

[tbtc]

I'm afraid the trendy & wealthy Cardiff "siarad Cymraeg" S4C types have completely lost their link with reality, which is frustrating for those in the "real" world.

Hopefully there'll be more focus on usage rather than tokenism and unread translation in mk 2, which I believe the Minister is obliged to eventually produce.

I think that we can all agree that tokenism is a bad thing

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm afraid the trendy & wealthy Cardiff "siarad Cymraeg" S4C types have completely lost their link with reality, which is frustrating for those in the "real" world.

Hopefully there'll be more focus on usage rather than tokenism and unread translation in mk 2, which I believe the Minister is obliged to eventually produce.

I agree, I just wonder what the cost of the binned exercise was,probably several hundred thousand £, The Commissioner is not the first trendy Cardiff S4C type to have lost the link with reality.

Meri Huws CV

1984 – 1989 Lecturer, Normal College, Bangor
1989 – 1997 Lecturer, Newport University
1997 – 1999 Worked at the Academic Office in Dublin City University
1999 – 2009 Deputy Vice-Chancellor, Bangor University
2009 – 2012 Deputy Vice-Chancellor, University of Wales Trinity Saint David
2012 – Welsh Language Commissioner

Other

1981 – 1983 Chair of the Welsh Language Society
1993 – 1997 Member of the Welsh Language Board
2004 – 2012 Chair of the Welsh Language Board

Not a day spent working in the Private Sector or obviously understanding the sector , says it all

 

[Proud Salopian]

Just to add my two pence to this thread - in Shropshire we have to put up with Welsh signs at our stations (Welsh first/English second) because of ATW having a blanket "Welsh language" policy across their network, even though good chunks of it are in England.

If anyone's wondering, there used to be some Welsh speakers in Shropshire until about 120 years ago. Whilst some placenames are still Welsh (though only small villages, farms, etc) there is simply no Welsh speaking going on here, except for the very occasional Welsh speaker coming across from Wales for business or a family coming shopping etc. And funnily enough, they can speak English perfectly well.

 

[Swirlz]

Just to add my two pence to this thread - in Shropshire we have to put up with Welsh signs at our stations (Welsh first/English second) because of ATW having a blanket "Welsh language" policy across their network, even though good chunks of it are in England.

Well Chester doesn't have any Welsh signs or announcements so it can hardly be a blanket policy!

Probably just a bit of confusion when ATW took over as to which side of the border it is in.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well Chester doesn't have any Welsh signs or announcements so it can hardly be a blanket policy!

Probably just a bit of confusion when ATW took over as to which side of the border it is in.

Chester being one of the three Hubs managed by ATW on behalf of WG in England(Salop&Hereford the other two). I have noticed at Chester some notices are in fact Bi Lingual,Xmas was an example of this, but no other painted signage,all ATW pocket timetables on offer at Chester are Blanket Bi Lingual however.

As a matter of interest Chester is ATWs only managed station with four tocs using it