Weakest link on the intercity network

[tbtc]

Both Manchester and Liverpool to Glasgow and Edinburgh could be a lot better really. Liverpool has 2 or 3 tpd to Glasgow, each formed of 5 coaches; Manchester under the normal timetable has 1 train per 2 hours to each of Glaagow and Edinburgh, again only formed of 5 coaches.

The size of these cities along with the tourism and business elements means Liverpool should have a similar level that Manchester currently has. Meanwhile Manchester should have an hourly service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, formed of 10 coaches.

So Preston to Carlisle in a typical hour would be:

• 9/1111 coach 390 on London to Glasgow
• 9/11 coach 390 on London - Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh
• 10 coach TPE on Manchester to Edinburgh
• 10 coach TPE on Manchester to Glasgow
• 5 coach TPE from Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh

So generally forty five carriages over Shap each hour, in between the freight? Apologies if I've missed any out here (I'm not including any TPE services from Liverpool/ Manchester to Edinburgh via the ECML)

I don’t know about weakest, but London to Liverpool feels a poor relation relative to other places which have a 2tph or even 3tph Intercity service

Based on the pre-Covid timetables, Liverpool had two London trains with the peak flow and one per hour off peak - all were 390s

A single 390 may have more seats than Sheffield/ Nottingham got each hour to London (given the low number of seats on the 222s, even though there are two per hour)

The Liverpool to London service doesn't serve anywhere particularly significant (compared to other lines which include stops at cities like Stoke/ Derby/ Leicester/ Coventry on the way to London)

Whilst a Leeds to London service soaks up a lot of demand from the wider region (Bradford etc), a lot of Merseyside would use Wigan/ Warrington/ Chester (which each have an hourly London service too)

I can see why Liverpool's service looks poorer, but I'd prefer Sheffield to have a half hourly 390 with the peak flow, especially one that didn't get overwhelmed by a large amount of intermediate (Derby/ Leicester) passengers - grass is always greener, I guess

 

[Gareth]

Obviously, but makes no difference as Irlam is administered by Salford City Council and has been for nearly fifty years.

It makes a world of difference.

 

[Huntergreed]

• 9/1111 coach 390 on London to Glasgow
• 9/11 coach 390 on London - Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh
• 10 coach TPE on Manchester to Edinburgh
• 10 coach TPE on Manchester to Glasgow
• 5 coach TPE from Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh

Generally(pre-covid) it’s

1 x 9/11 coach 390 on the Euston - Glasgow express

1 x 9/11 coach 390 on the Euston to Scotland via Birmingham

1 x 5 car 397 on Manchester to Glasgow or Edinburgh (generally one northbound per hour, with extras added in sometimes)

That gives a minimum of 23 coaches (bearing in mind that only 16 are standard). Not a massive provision, but not wholly inadequate.

 

[yorksrob]

Another vote for Sheffield - Manchester.

The route is a basket case at the moment.

 

[John Luxton]

anything out of Liverpool Lime Street long distance wise isn't great.

Particularly to South west Cities Bristol / Exeter / Plymouth / Truro and on to Penzance. Okay it was never inter-City in BR days but it is a significant missing link.

I used this a lot for holiday trips 1978 to 1982 the year I passed my driving test and my use of long distance trains declined to zero.

In last year or so I have started travelling more by rail again and have been shocked by this missing North West - South West link. Everything requires a change usually at New Street.

From my recollections of journeys on this route the train was always well loaded with a relief duplicate on Summer Saturdays which departed either a few minutes before or after and ran via Shrewsbury and Severn Tunnel to terminate at Paignton.

On a personal basis I could be tempted out of the car again if there was a through service to Devon and Cornwall but otherwise I can't be bothered messing around with luggage at New Street.

John

 

[Western Sunset]

Regarding the link between Manchester and Sheffield.
Sometimes we forget how dire services used to be.
These were the through trains (M-F) from Manchester to Sheffield between 1600 and 2100 (all five of 'em) in 1962:

Woodhead = Man Pic d 1610 Sheff Vic a 1703
Man Pic d 1700 Sheff Vic a 1758
Man Cent d 1741 Sheff Vic a 1855
Man Pic d 1910 Sheff Vic a 2015

Hope Valley = Man Cent d 1610 Sheff Mid a 1806

 

[The Planner]

Generally(pre-covid) it’s

1 x 9/11 coach 390 on the Euston - Glasgow express

1 x 9/11 coach 390 on the Euston to Scotland via Birmingham

1 x 5 car 397 on Manchester to Glasgow or Edinburgh (generally one northbound per hour, with extras added in sometimes)

That gives a minimum of 23 coaches (bearing in mind that only 16 are standard). Not a massive provision, but not wholly inadequate.

That is still 888 standard seats on 2 x 11 car Pendos and 264 on the 397, so 1152 in total an hour. Even if you just assumed 12 hours a day that is nigh on 14000 seats a day in one direction. Just how much would be a massive provision?

 

[yorksrob]

Regarding the link between Manchester and Sheffield.
Sometimes we forget how dire services used to be.
These were the through trains (M-F) from Manchester to Sheffield between 1600 and 2100 (all five of 'em) in 1962:

Woodhead = Man Pic d 1610 Sheff Vic a 1703
Man Pic d 1700 Sheff Vic a 1758
Man Cent d 1741 Sheff Vic a 1855
Man Pic d 1910 Sheff Vic a 2015

Hope Valley = Man Cent d 1610 Sheff Mid a 1806

It would be interesting to go back in time and see how busy they were. At least they were roughly hourly on the Woodhead line.

 

[krus_aragon]

The "Inter-City" network is something of a moveable feast

Only if there's a buffet car on the train!

 

[Peterthegreat]

Regarding the link between Manchester and Sheffield.
Sometimes we forget how dire services used to be.
These were the through trains (M-F) from Manchester to Sheffield between 1600 and 2100 (all five of 'em) in 1962:

Woodhead = Man Pic d 1610 Sheff Vic a 1703
Man Pic d 1700 Sheff Vic a 1758
Man Cent d 1741 Sheff Vic a 1855
Man Pic d 1910 Sheff Vic a 2015

Hope Valley = Man Cent d 1610 Sheff Mid a 1806

Many routes had VERY infrequent services in the 1960s and 1970s. Ignoring overnight and dated trains there were only 8 trains all day from Glasgow to beyond Carlisle in 1973/4. And only two (portions) from Edinburgh.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Regarding the link between Manchester and Sheffield.
Sometimes we forget how dire services used to be.
These were the through trains (M-F) from Manchester to Sheffield between 1600 and 2100 (all five of 'em) in 1962:

Woodhead = Man Pic d 1610 Sheff Vic a 1703
Man Pic d 1700 Sheff Vic a 1758
Man Cent d 1741 Sheff Vic a 1855
Man Pic d 1910 Sheff Vic a 2015

Hope Valley = Man Cent d 1610 Sheff Mid a 1806

I'm not defending the route, but is it fair to call it dire?
People travelled less in those days, and, according to summary table 31 in the Summer '62 T.T. there were only 5 London services from Manchester over the same time period.
The journey time is an interesting comparison with today - a quick check shows it's now alternate 53m and 1h17m journey times.
The trains then were formed of corridor stock with either 2+2 (open) or 3 a side (side corridor) seating in the 2nd class..
And the last train always ran...

 

[Western Sunset]

It would be interesting to go back in time and see how busy they were. At least they were roughly hourly on the Woodhead line.

Only if there's a buffet car on the train!

Very good! More of a "feast" if there was a restaurant car open though...

And if you missed the 1910 from Manchester, it was a 2-hour wait for the next Sheffield train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2022 ==

I'm not defending the route, but is it fair to call it dire?
People travelled less in those days, and, according to summary table 31 in the Summer '62 T.T. there were only 5 London services from Manchester over the same time period.
The journey time is an interesting comparison with today - a quick check shows it's now alternate 53m and 1h17m journey times.
The trains then were formed of corridor stock with either 2+2 (open) or 3 a side (side corridor) seating in the 2nd class..
And the last train always ran...

By "dire", I was thinking more of services in general at that time.
Those steam heat Mk1s on the Woodhead were nice and comfy on a December evening. And always plenty of room.

 

[Djgr]

So Preston to Carlisle in a typical hour would be:

• 9/1111 coach 390 on London to Glasgow
• 9/11 coach 390 on London - Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh
• 10 coach TPE on Manchester to Edinburgh
• 10 coach TPE on Manchester to Glasgow
• 5 coach TPE from Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh

So generally forty five carriages over Shap each hour, in between the freight? Apologies if I've missed any out here (I'm not including any TPE services from Liverpool/ Manchester to Edinburgh via the ECML)



Based on the pre-Covid timetables, Liverpool had two London trains with the peak flow and one per hour off peak - all were 390s

A single 390 may have more seats than Sheffield/ Nottingham got each hour to London (given the low number of seats on the 222s, even though there are two per hour)

The Liverpool to London service doesn't serve anywhere particularly significant (compared to other lines which include stops at cities like Stoke/ Derby/ Leicester/ Coventry on the way to London)

Whilst a Leeds to London service soaks up a lot of demand from the wider region (Bradford etc), a lot of Merseyside would use Wigan/ Warrington/ Chester (which each have an hourly London service too)

I can see why Liverpool's service looks poorer, but I'd prefer Sheffield to have a half hourly 390 with the peak flow, especially one that didn't get overwhelmed by a large amount of intermediate (Derby/ Leicester) passengers - grass is always greener, I guess

"doesn't serve anywhere particularly significant"...apart from Liverpool

 

[Some guy]

To be honest the via West Midlands journey was a good alternative, as long as it offers cheaper advances plus it's only an extra hour.

Actually Glasgow to Crewe is one we've missed, again just 2tpd and they both arrive late at night. I think the EUS-GLC fasts need to stop at Crewe especially if via WM never returns as it's essential for connectivity to places like Birmingham, Stoke, Cardiff etc

It can’t stop at Crewe because of the pathing it is on and why make an extremely busy service even busier

 

[Peter0124]

It can’t stop at Crewe because of the pathing it is on and why make an extremely busy service even busier

Because Crewe has a good variety of connections which are otherwise missed. If they aren't reintroducing the via WM service then I really think they need to rewrite.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Very good! More of a "feast" if there was a restaurant car open though...

And if you missed the 1910 from Manchester, it was a 2-hour wait for the next Sheffield train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Mar 2022 ==


By "dire", I was thinking more of services in general at that time.
Those steam heat Mk1s on the Woodhead were nice and comfy on a December evening. And always plenty of room.

Yes, I understand that., I was there and they certainly were!

 

[frodshamfella]

Particularly to South west Cities Bristol / Exeter / Plymouth / Truro and on to Penzance. Okay it was never inter-City in BR days but it is a significant missing link.

I used this a lot for holiday trips 1978 to 1982 the year I passed my driving test and my use of long distance trains declined to zero.

In last year or so I have started travelling more by rail again and have been shocked by this missing North West - South West link. Everything requires a change usually at New Street.

From my recollections of journeys on this route the train was always well loaded with a relief duplicate on Summer Saturdays which departed either a few minutes before or after and ran via Shrewsbury and Severn Tunnel to terminate at Paignton.

On a personal basis I could be tempted out of the car again if there was a through service to Devon and Cornwall but otherwise I can't be bothered messing around with luggage at New Street.

John

Its true NW to SW is a drag of a journey.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Particularly [from Liverpool] to South west Cities Bristol / Exeter / Plymouth / Truro and on to Penzance. Okay it was never inter-City in BR days but it is a significant missing link.

I used this a lot for holiday trips 1978 to 1982 the year I passed my driving test and my use of long distance trains declined to zero.

In last year or so I have started travelling more by rail again and have been shocked by this missing North West - South West link. Everything requires a change usually at New Street.

From my recollections of journeys on this route the train was always well loaded with a relief duplicate on Summer Saturdays which departed either a few minutes before or after and ran via Shrewsbury and Severn Tunnel to terminate at Paignton.

On a personal basis I could be tempted out of the car again if there was a through service to Devon and Cornwall but otherwise I can't be bothered messing around with luggage at New Street.

John

[BIB] in 1982 Liverpool only had one M-F train per day to the South West (Penzance), at 0920, taking over 8.5 hours. The rest of the two-hourly 'cross country' services generally went towards Reading although some stopped short at Birmingham. I'm not surprised that you bought a car. I was living on Merseyside in 1979 and did exactly the same!

Isn't the issue here that the Covid 'halved' cross country service has taken out direct NW-SW trains (from Manchester rather than Liverpool, admittedly). Hopefully these will return, with other interchange opportunities available.

 

[miklcct]

Is Haymarket to Crewe too weak by only having one train per two hours?

 

[John Luxton]

[BIB] in 1982 Liverpool only had one M-F train per day to the South West (Penzance), at 0920, taking over 8.5 hours. The rest of the two-hourly 'cross country' services generally went towards Reading although some stopped short at Birmingham. I'm not surprised that you bought a car. I was living on Merseyside in 1979 and did exactly the same!

Isn't the issue here that the Covid 'halved' cross country service has taken out direct NW-SW trains (from Manchester rather than Liverpool, admittedly). Hopefully these will return, with other interchange opportunities available.

I found the once a day service quite acceptable.

Did the job fine as I was mainly travelling to and from Exeter at the time and found the arrival around 14:00 just right and the return around 12:30 if I recall also acceptable.

I didn't decide to but a car but passing my test gave me access to the family car.

It the timings from Liverpool also provided a good day trip opportunity for going to Bristol which I did a few times but I recall having to change a New Street - but as it was a day trip didn't have any luggage.

John

 

[BeijingDave]

Thing is that the demand isn't even all week. Five coaches is more than enough almost all of the time. Blocking up stations with splitting and joining has equally bad effects on other services and capacity.

Not to mention the lost passengers who somehow ended up in Glasgow rather than Edinburgh after a Carstairs split, no matter how many announcements were made about being in the right portion.

 

[gerryuk]

Sheffield - Carlisle, one train per week, in each direction.

 

[Taunton]

Regarding Scottish long distance services, it is quite noticeable how over recent times, certainly within my recollection (OK, OK, I'm getting on a bit) Glasgow was once dominant over Edinburgh, but the balance has definitely changed, such that Edinburgh is at least equal, and in some areas ahead. It's not only the railway, for their two airports have had an equal change of balance.

Stewart Joy, Beeching's Chief Economist, went to a meeting in Whitehall between government and BR over rural railway subsidy. A line in question was Newcastle to Carlisle. The most junior civil servant in the room suddenly demanded why they were discussing it at all; both Newcastle and Carlisle were cities, and BR had stated that Inter-City services would be fully commercial. Apparently all the senior staff there, from both sides, groaned ...

There are a number of other city connections which fall more to the local operators. Back to Scotland, and Glasgow to Edinburgh has long had a fantastic (cheap, fast, frequent) service - I remember when it too was badged as Inter-City. Compare to Birmingham to Nottingham, two urban areas not dissimilar in size or distance apart, which has always been awfully provided for.

 

[Falcon1200]

Edinburgh has a long tradition of frequent fast services to London and the road was poor especially north of Newcastle and so the population has been used to using the train. For a long time, until the end if the west coast upgrade, Glasgow had a slow, infrequent and unreliable service and the A74/M6 was completely dualled. People flew, drove, or took the coach.

Glasgow is a far bigger city than Edinburgh, yet Edinburgh has a better train service to London, and since Covid, with no sign of a change, to Manchester and Birmingham too; And even has trams ! OTOH Glasgow does indeed have a way better road link to the south.

As for Glasgow Central alone (I first misread your post), yes I agree they need improved, the Carstairs services gotta come back as they serve Motherwell and Lanarkshire, which has a poor service to Edinburgh currently.

Pre-Covid there were 2-hourly XC trains between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh, a few Scotrails, and one LNER per day. I agree the service should be improved to hourly, with the return of the full XC service and Scotrail or LNER on the opposite hours.

It can’t stop at Crewe because of the pathing it is on and why make an extremely busy service even busier

For a while during Covid the Euston/Glasgows did call at Crewe, but that has now ceased; The stops should be re-instated, perhaps on an every other hour basis, to go some way at least to improving Glasgow/Birmingham journeys.

 

[davetheguard]

Bristol - Birmingham is not great - given there is little in the way of rail alternative to XC - I’d certainly consider it to be the “weakest link” in the area. IMHO it’s crying out for a semi-fast service rather than necessarily an extra truly IC run.

Bristol to Manchester given that CrossCountry STILL haven't reinstated the direct services.

I'd say any IC route where (under normal circumstances) the only operator of fast trains uses 4 car Voyagers as the main rolling stock.

So, the whole of the West Country from Penzance to Bristol & everywhere in between to: the Midlands; & the northwest for a start. At least for the northeast & Scotland you have the alternative of going via London.

The same issues affect south coast/Reading to Birmingham - Manchester, & Birmingham - Newcastle.

 

[tbtc]

"doesn't serve anywhere particularly significant"...apart from Liverpool

Apologies if it wasn't obvious I was talking about intermediate stops (I'd suggest that London was probably "significant" too, if you want to play that game though...)

I'm sure that cities like Sheffield would have a much poorer service to London if the only intermediate stops were at towns like Stafford rather than cities like Leicester, just like the capacity/frequency of a bus service from your suburb into the city centre would be poorer if it wasn't a service linking a few suburbs on it's way to the city centre

If the main line from Liverpool to London went through places like Coventry then things would be different

Glasgow is a far bigger city than Edinburgh, yet Edinburgh has a better train service to London, and since Covid, with no sign of a change, to Manchester and Birmingham too; And even has trams ! OTOH Glasgow does indeed have a way better road link to the south

I think that there are a few reasons:

• Edinburgh trains stop at places (e.g. Newcastle) that are bigger than the ones that the Glasgow trains stop at
• Edinburgh trains are the way of getting to London from most of northern Scotland (stations towards Aberdeen, Inverness etc), whereas Glasgow trains are only really for Glasgow
• Edinburgh has a lower population but is a much bigger attraction (finance, tourism etc) so there's more demand (in the way that Newcastle has a lower population than Sunderland but there's a lot more demand for London services from Newcastle)
• Edinburgh has a poorer road to England (as you say); the train can compete better against the single carriageway A1 than the motorway all the way from Glasgow city centre
• If you are counting the trams that Edinburgh has had in recent years then you really need to recognise that Glasgow has had the Subway and a comprehensive suburban train network for decades

Pre-Covid there were 2-hourly XC trains between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh, a few Scotrails, and one LNER per day. I agree the service should be improved to hourly, with the return of the full XC service and Scotrail or LNER on the opposite hours

There were around thirteen services per hour from Glasgow to Edinburgh pre-Covid, around three of which were from Central (the "fast" Shotts service, the "slow" Shotts service, the bi-hourly XC service and the irregular ScotRail via Carstairs) - if some people have to walk (or take the free bus) to Queen Street to take the fast services via Falkirk High instead then I'm not going to lose too much sleep (especially considering the huge cuts that we've seen to places like Kirkcaldy)

 

[Djgr]

Apologies if it wasn't obvious I was talking about intermediate stops (I'd suggest that London was probably "significant" too, if you want to play that game though...)

I'm sure that cities like Sheffield would have a much poorer service to London if the only intermediate stops were at towns like Stafford rather than cities like Leicester, just like the capacity/frequency of a bus service from your suburb into the city centre would be poorer if it wasn't a service linking a few suburbs on it's way to the city centre

If the main line from Liverpool to London went through places like Coventry then things would be different



I think that there are a few reasons:

• Edinburgh trains stop at places (e.g. Newcastle) that are bigger than the ones that the Glasgow trains stop at
• Edinburgh trains are the way of getting to London from most of northern Scotland (stations towards Aberdeen, Inverness etc), whereas Glasgow trains are only really for Glasgow
• Edinburgh has a lower population but is a much bigger attraction (finance, tourism etc) so there's more demand (in the way that Newcastle has a lower population than Sunderland but there's a lot more demand for London services from Newcastle)
• Edinburgh has a poorer road to England (as you say); the train can compete better against the single carriageway A1 than the motorway all the way from Glasgow city centre
• If you are counting the trams that Edinburgh has had in recent years then you really need to recognise that Glasgow has had the Subway and a comprehensive suburban train network for decades

There were around thirteen services per hour from Glasgow to Edinburgh pre-Covid, around three of which were from Central (the "fast" Shotts service, the "slow" Shotts service, the bi-hourly XC service and the irregular ScotRail via Carstairs) - if some people have to walk (or take the free bus) to Queen Street to take the fast services via Falkirk High instead then I'm not going to lose too much sleep (especially considering the huge cuts that we've seen to places like Kirkcaldy)

The point I was making is how many people actually want to travel long distance to a particular location. You seem to be regarding Sheffield and Liverpool as essentially equivalent.

But here's an interesting exercise that I have not seen done on this forum. If you go to TripAdvisor you can easily obtain the number of hotels in a city. Arguably this is a useful proxy for how many long distance visitors a city gets.

Sheffield has 34. Liverpool has 78.

As they say in exam papers, discuss:

 

[yorksrob]

Talking of Liverpool, I had the pleasure of travelling from Crewe to Stafford on a Liverpool - Birmingham New Street service yesterday. It was run by West Midlands Trains, so not an InterCity operation in the traditional sense, but a link between two of the core cities. The train was a sleek, comfortable 8 carriage EMU with plenty of space for passengers and fares that presumably weren't too exhorbitant.

What makes it possible to have such an effective, if unfussy train service between these two cities, where we can't seem to get it right between Liverpool - Leeds/Sheffield ?

Answer - electrification. That is the key to enabling effective capacity between the large urban areas. Forget about grandiose plans for new lines. Get the wires up, get the platforms extended and all will be fine.

 

[tbtc]

The point I was making is how many people actually want to travel long distance to a particular location. You seem to be regarding Sheffield and Liverpool as essentially equivalent.

But here's an interesting exercise that I have not seen done on this forum. If you go to TripAdvisor you can easily obtain the number of hotels in a city. Arguably this is a useful proxy for how many long distance visitors a city gets.

Sheffield has 34. Liverpool has 78.

As they say in exam papers, discuss:

...and Blackpool has over a thousand places on TripAdvisor (https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-g186332-Blackpool_Lancashire_England-Hotels.html) - do we need to discuss that too?

IMHO Sheffield and Liverpool are both secondary cities in northern England (both with many great things but neither in the same league as Manchester/ Leeds)

Sheffield gets a couple of 222s to London each hour - which it shares with the passengers of two intermediate cities

Liverpool gets a Pendolino every hour with half hourly trains at peak times - and a service that only stops at towns on it's way to London (so not the same number of passengers for intermediate stations - there can't be many other "InterCity" services out of London that don't stop at any intermediate cities?)

 

[paul1609]

Not a part of the “existing intercity network” which the OP is considering, and never was.

There is no such thing as an intercity network and hasn't been for many years. Leeds - Sheffield, Sheffield-Manchester are no different to Portsmouth - Southampton - Bristol or even the worse Brighton - Portsmouth/ Southampton services.