Weakest link on the intercity network

[Watershed]

Liverpool gets a Pendolino every hour with half hourly trains at peak times - and a service that only stops at towns on it's way to London

Technically two Up services stop at Lichfield

 

[Gareth]

Sheffield and Liverpool are both secondary cities in northern England (both with many great things but neither in the same league as Manchester/ Leeds)

The whole love affair with Manchester that Minglanders have is one thing but not being in the same "league" as somewhere as unspectacular as Leeds is definitely a new low. I'd have even said that was harsh on Sheffield but you speak for your own city, kiddo.

 

[yorksrob]

Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield and Liverpool are all considered to be core cities, i.e next in the league below London.

 

[Gareth]

Technically two Up services stop at Lichfield

And the plan is to serve Liverpool with 2tph in the near future anyway. That's charity, I can only presume.

Of course, there's many places on the WCML between Liverpool & London. Not massive places but not insignificant. Liverpool could do with better connections to the South WCML and a second tph to London is part of that.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we drop the debate about what constitutes a city in this thread please - we have done it to death on other threads and its off topic for this one.

thanks

 

[ChrisC]

Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield and Liverpool are all considered to be core cities, i.e next in the league below London.

To extend this to other parts of the UK I would also include Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cardiff, Belfast, Bristol, Nottingham, Newcastle etc. Then I suppose it’s where to draw the line before the next league which would include cities like Leicester, Plymouth, Southampton and many more.

Of that first list Nottingham, local to me, seems to be amongst those with the poorest intercity connections. Except from the 2tph to London everywhere else has to be reached by often overcrowded short formed 2 or 3 coach DMU trains. You are very lucky if there are as many as 4 coaches!

Sorry @Mag_seven. I had already posted this!

 

[Some guy]

Because Crewe has a good variety of connections which are otherwise missed. If they aren't reintroducing the via WM service then I really think they need to rewrite.

It’s coming back in December timetable. Surely Crewe passengers can wait 10 minutes at Preston or Carlisle for the Glasgow one until then

 

[Falcon1200]

if some people have to walk (or take the free bus) to Queen Street to take the fast services via Falkirk High instead then I'm not going to lose too much sleep

Personally I don't mind at all walking from Central to Queen St or vice versa; I have done it in 7 minutes, although I would rather have 10 ! However it doesn't suit everyone, especially in poor weather, and the Central/Edinburgh trains can also serve Motherwell.

Surely Crewe passengers can wait 10 minutes at Preston or Carlisle for the Glasgow one until then

The connection at Preston between Glasgow C/Euston and Edinburgh or Blackpool/Birmingham trains is, in the Up direction, around 15 minutes, which is reasonable; In the Down direction it is 40 plus, which certainly is not.

 

[30907]

The connection at Preston between Glasgow C/Euston and Edinburgh or Blackpool/Birmingham trains is, in the Up direction, around 15 minutes, which is reasonable; In the Down direction it is 40 plus, which certainly is not.

But there is a 10min connection going North into a TPE.
If only there were through Advsnce fares....

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Particularly to South west Cities Bristol / Exeter / Plymouth / Truro and on to Penzance. Okay it was never inter-City in BR days but it is a significant missing link.

I used this a lot for holiday trips 1978 to 1982 the year I passed my driving test and my use of long distance trains declined to zero.

In last year or so I have started travelling more by rail again and have been shocked by this missing North West - South West link. Everything requires a change usually at New Street.

From my recollections of journeys on this route the train was always well loaded with a relief duplicate on Summer Saturdays which departed either a few minutes before or after and ran via Shrewsbury and Severn Tunnel to terminate at Paignton.

On a personal basis I could be tempted out of the car again if there was a through service to Devon and Cornwall but otherwise I can't be bothered messing around with luggage at New Street.

John

Yes, these were chopped in c. 2005/6 to 'improve performance in the WM area' with the idea (I seem to recall) that Wolverhampton would become something of an interchange once it had its extra platforms. Not a good move, IMHO. I hear of regular reports of c.20 pax per train coming off the EDI and GLC trains and trying to get to an XC to the South West, either at Wolverhampton or at New Street (perfectly possible after only a few weeks of intensive map-reading training!) Made worse by the various changes in XC and Avanti WC timings over the years which have made the connection even less plausible.
OK, so the planners/performance gurus on today's railway are never going to allow the NW/SW links to return but can we do something about connections instead? The idea of a quality connection from an express train to an express train seems to have got lost in UK rail practice somewhere along the line (compare with the Netherlands where cross-platform interchange in these case is pretty much the norm.) Now that the rail industry is (perhaps?) a little more conscious of the need to attract patronage ... rather than to manage crowding/reduce network congestion arising from excess demand as it attempted to do for the 15 years or so pre-Covid ... perhaps there is scope to rethink some of this? Just saying!

 

[Falcon1200]

But there is a 10min connection going North into a TPE.

True, pre Covid, there was indeed a connection every two hours, however now TPE only run 5 trains a day to Glasgow, and one of those is at 0648 from Carlisle !
Agree regarding Advance fares, perhaps GBR will fix that ?

 

[30907]

True, pre Covid, there was indeed a connection every two hours, however now TPE only run 5 trains a day to Glasgow, and one of those is at 0648 from Carlisle !

Apologies, I didn't spot that some were Q paths.

It is interesting that TPE also prioritise EDB over GLC though.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It arguably isn't on the intercity network though.

How is Sheffield-Nottingham not on the InterCity network but Sheffield-Manchester is? It's the same EMT train!

I think we need a more precise definition of 'InterCity' to answer this thread. To my mind, routes like Liverpool-Norwich and Portsmouth-Bristol would seem to be inter-city in nature even though they are run by DME stock - it's still long-distance trains that miss lots of local stations.

 

[Djgr]

How is Sheffield-Nottingham not on the InterCity network but Sheffield-Manchester is? It's the same EMT train!

I think we need a more precise definition of 'InterCity' to answer this thread. To my mind, routes like Liverpool-Norwich and Portsmouth-Bristol would seem to be inter-city in nature even though they are run by DME stock - it's still long-distance trains that miss lots of local stations.

Indeed. Is there a UK service that directly connects more cities together than the Liverpool to Norwich one?

 

[Peter0124]

Indeed. Is there a UK service that directly connects more cities together than the Liverpool to Norwich one?

Aberdeen to Penzance connected Aberdeen with Dundee, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Durham, York, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol, Exeter, Truro

 

[Peterthegreat]

Indeed. Is there a UK service that directly connects more cities together than the Liverpool to Norwich one?

The Plymouth - Aberdeen train serves 14 cities.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

Aberdeen to Penzance connected Aberdeen with Dundee, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Durham, York, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol, Exeter, Truro

You missed out Plymouth.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Regarding Scottish long distance services, it is quite noticeable how over recent times, certainly within my recollection (OK, OK, I'm getting on a bit) Glasgow was once dominant over Edinburgh, but the balance has definitely changed, such that Edinburgh is at least equal, and in some areas ahead. It's not only the railway, for their two airports have had an equal change of balance.

Over the years Edinburgh has grown hugely in importance relative to Glasgow.

Edinburgh trains are the way of getting to London from most of northern Scotland (stations towards Aberdeen, Inverness etc), whereas Glasgow trains are only really for Glasgow

This was not always the case and is a result of many timetable improvements over the years. Going back to when Stirling to Edinburgh to 45 minutes plus and Perth had only a handful of trains per day to Edinburgh journeys from these cities were in the main quicker via Glasgow - and even today in some cases still are for journeys continuing through Carlisle.
Electronic timetable searches also drove routings via Edinburgh as in their early days they steadfastly refused to give a routing with change of station in Glasgow unless the user input both via points. I recall overhearing a conversation between Guard and passenger on a train from Inverness, the passenger was going to Stranraer and their routing was via Edinburgh then to Glasgow Central and the Guard eventually convinced them staying on the train would get them to Glasgow well before their connection would even reach Edinburgh - there may have been no earlier arrival in Stranraer but at least they were spared a lot of extra train mileage (I assumed they had no railway interest, otherwise they would likely have realised how crazy their routing was.

It is interesting that TPE also prioritise EDB over GLC though.

TPE quickly realised Edinburgh was the bigger market for them, understandably when north from Preston they were competing with one West Coast train every two hours to Edinburgh whereas to Glasgow it was three every two hours by the West Coast franchise. During the class 185 and 350 era most weekend Edinburgh trains were strengthened to 6 or 8 cars - and filled well - whilst Glasgow strengthening was limited to special events such as the Commonwealth Games, and latterly trains which required the capacity between Lancaster/Preston and Manchester for the commuter and business flows. .

 

[d9009alycidon]

Over the years Edinburgh has grown hugely in importance relative to Glasgow.

This was not always the case and is a result of many timetable improvements over the years. Going back to when Stirling to Edinburgh to 45 minutes plus and Perth had only a handful of trains per day to Edinburgh journeys from these cities were in the main quicker via Glasgow - and even today in some cases still are for journeys continuing through Carlisle.
Electronic timetable searches also drove routings via Edinburgh as in their early days they steadfastly refused to give a routing with change of station in Glasgow unless the user input both via points. I recall overhearing a conversation between Guard and passenger on a train from Inverness, the passenger was going to Stranraer and their routing was via Edinburgh then to Glasgow Central and the Guard eventually convinced them staying on the train would get them to Glasgow well before their connection would even reach Edinburgh - there may have been no earlier arrival in Stranraer but at least they were spared a lot of extra train mileage (I assumed they had no railway interest, otherwise they would likely have realised how crazy their routing was.

TPE quickly realised Edinburgh was the bigger market for them, understandably when north from Preston they were competing with one West Coast train every two hours to Edinburgh whereas to Glasgow it was three every two hours by the West Coast franchise. During the class 185 and 350 era most weekend Edinburgh trains were strengthened to 6 or 8 cars - and filled well - whilst Glasgow strengthening was limited to special events such as the Commonwealth Games, and latterly trains which required the capacity between Lancaster/Preston and Manchester for the commuter and business flows. .

Not just the railway, the number of overseas destinations available form Edinburgh Airport far exceeds those from Glasgow, again highlighting the tourist market. On a point of intercity travel by all means possible, Glasgow to Newcastle is pretty dire, by road you have to negotiate either the A1 or A69, both very poor routes, there has never been a link by air and by rail although there are plenty of trains nearly every one involves a change at Waverley.

 

[miklcct]

Not just the railway, the number of overseas destinations available form Edinburgh Airport far exceeds those from Glasgow, again highlighting the tourist market. On a point of intercity travel by all means possible, Glasgow to Newcastle is pretty dire, by road you have to negotiate either the A1 or A69, both very poor routes, there has never been a link by air and by rail although there are plenty of trains nearly every one involves a change at Waverley.

It's because Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, which signifies the importance of the city.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It's because Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, which signifies the importance of the city.

Whilst Edinburgh has long been the capital in the past the industrial powerhouse of Glasgow (and surrounding major towns) was the more important city.

I do find it amazing road links to the south from Edinburgh remain so poor, a lengthy run on single carriageway roads to reach the M74 - or and even longer diversion via the M8, whilst the alternatives via the A1 also involves a number of sections of single carriageway, or the A69 single carriageway too.
This perhaps reflects the lesser importance of Edinburgh at the time when the motorway network was being developed and likewise other trunk roads.

 

[Watershed]

It's because Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, which signifies the importance of the city.

There are many countries where the capital is not really that big, or certainly not the most important city in the country. For example, Australia with Canberra vs Sydney and Melbourne, China with Beijing vs Shanghai, New Zealand with Wellington vs Auckland.

 

[Peter0124]

There are many countries where the capital is not really that big, or certainly not the most important city in the country. For example, Australia with Canberra vs Sydney and Melbourne, China with Beijing vs Shanghai, New Zealand with Wellington vs Auckland.

USA with Washington D.C. vs New York/LA?

 

[yorkie]

I guess we've exhausted the original discussion but if anyone has anything to add which is on topic, please report this post and include in your report a draft of what you wish to post and we will consider reopening the thread.