Weakest link on the intercity network

[quantinghome]

What is the weakest intercity link between two places on the network, considering capacity, service frequency, speed and size of places served?

For the purposes of this exercise, let's only consider the current network, ignoring connections that we think should exist but don't. Intercity network defined as long distance services which primarily serve large towns and cities.

Leeds - Sheffield must be a strong contender. I can't think of two large cities connected by a worse intercity service - 1 tph, 200 seats per hour, average speed about 50 mph.

 

[JonathanH]

Leeds - Sheffield must be a strong contender. I can't think of two large cities connected by a worse intercity service - 1 tph, 200 seats per hour, average speed about 50 mph.

More seats than that at present because most trains are now formed of double Voyagers, one of the upsides of the current XC operation.

 

[Llandudno]

Sheffield - Manchester, awful, unreliable train service and no motorway or dual carriageway either!

 

[mmh]

More seats than that at present because most trains are now formed of double Voyagers, one of the upsides of the current XC operation.

I was surprised to read it only has 1tph, and on looking unsurprisingly it doesn't. By any sensible measure over the next few hours there are 2 tph. I'm unconvinced many people will be waiting half an hour because they want the "intercity" service rather than use the Northern train.

 

[SeanG]

I saw this thread title and thought that it would be about a strongman competition between different mess rooms...

I would say that Sheffield - Manchester isn't too bad, as there are two fast trains per hour and one stopper. I always think that Liverpool - London is rather poorly served, with only 1tph in normal times.

 

[Gareth]

Sheffield-Manchester is pretty poor, considering the size of the two cities.

 

[stuu]

Southampton to Bristol is a worse service than Leeds to Sheffield. An hourly DMU with an average speed that needs a calendar to measure

 

[swt_passenger]

Southampton to Bristol is a worse service than Leeds to Sheffield. An hourly DMU with an average speed that needs a calendar to measure

Not a part of the “existing intercity network” which the OP is considering, and never was.

 

[JonathanH]

I was surprised to read it only has 1tph, and on looking unsurprisingly it doesn't. By any sensible measure over the next few hours there are 2 tph. I'm unconvinced many people will be waiting half an hour because they want the "intercity" service rather than use the Northern train.

I suspect the OP doesn't consider the Northern train to be an Intercity service, not to mention the fact that the departure times of the XC service and the Nottingham Northern service are close to each other in the hour.

Besides I suspect they would also consider a regional service formed of two-car DMUs to be part of a poor series of links between the stations.

 

[quantinghome]

I was surprised to read it only has 1tph, and on looking unsurprisingly it doesn't. By any sensible measure over the next few hours there are 2 tph. I'm unconvinced many people will be waiting half an hour because they want the "intercity" service rather than use the Northern train.

Yes, Northern does provide an additional train which is sensibly timed to be worth catching rather than waiting for the next XC. But even if we do include it in consideration, a two-car DMU taking 55 minutes to do 35 miles is a pretty poor offering to connect two major cities and I don't think it raises Leeds-Sheffield above other parts of the network.

 

[Pumbaa]

I volunteer Leicester to Birmingham. Should be a slam dunk for connectivity between two very close cities, both geographically and culturally. Most hours, the competitive JT train will result in you standing. Similar story, 40 miles via a not very direct route, up to an hour JT. Even the “fast” still takes 50 minutes.

Would also second Leeds to Sheffield in terms of JT, but there is at least multiple travel opportunities. And as there is a much stronger cultural link between the two, and travellers are far more likely to hop in the car, I’d suggest that this is also a worse situation than Manchester - Sheffield.

 

[Spartacus]

If we don't count Northern then Bradford to pretty well anywhere has to be on the list.

 

[quantinghome]

Sheffield - Nottingham is pretty bad as well. 2tph (including Northern as it's hardly any slower than EMR), slow, low capacity trains.

 

[JonathanH]

Sheffield - Nottingham is pretty bad as well. 2tph (including Northern as it's hardly any slower than EMR), slow, low capacity trains.

It arguably isn't on the intercity network though.

 

[BeijingDave]

Sheffield - Manchester, awful, unreliable train service and no motorway or dual carriageway either!

Of course, you don't need me to tell you it's all due to the geography of the area.

Actually, there is a motorway, it just happens to take you to Leeds first (M62 and then down the M1), which is often the faster route than the A628!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Leeds - Sheffield must be a strong contender. I can't think of two large cities connected by a worse intercity service - 1 tph, 200 seats per hour, average speed about 50 mph.

Pre-covid, XC ran 2tph Sheffield-York, one via Leeds and the other via Doncaster.
The desire was to run both via Leeds, but there was never the capacity through Leeds, and more stock would have been needed for the longer route.

 

[stuu]

Not a part of the “existing intercity network” which the OP is considering, and never was.

You expect me to read the entire post!

Nor by the same measure is Sheffield to Manchester

 

[mmh]

Chester - London, at least with the current (lack of) service.

 

[paddy1]

Crewe to Warrington/Wigan/Preston. Loads of onwards connection south of Crewe and north of Wigan/Preston but everyone wishing to make long distance connections north from Crewe/Warrington to Wigan and beyond is funnelled into the one Avanti Intercity train an hour.

 

[swt_passenger]

You expect me to read the entire post!

Nor by the same measure is Sheffield to Manchester

That’s what I wondered too. I suppose it did have a short term Manchester to St Pancras service for a short while…

 

[Peter0124]

Glasgow and Birmingham, just 1tpd at the moment in that direction, and served by XC!!

 

[TheBigD]

Pre-covid, XC ran 2tph Sheffield-York, one via Leeds and the other via Doncaster.
The desire was to run both via Leeds, but there was never the capacity through Leeds, and more stock would have been needed for the longer route.

When the Eureka timetable was proposed for the ECML back in the mid 2000s, the initial plan was for alternate Reading-Newcastle services to run via Leeds. No additional stock was needed as it would have seen, for example, a northbound routed out via Leeds and back Doncaster and vv, leaving Doncaster with just a 2 hourly XC service. Turnrounds at Newcastle would have been reduced from around 45 minutes to around 25 minutes. In the event, only the 1515 ex Newcastle got routed via Leeds, the rest staying via Doncaster.

Subsequently, XC then reduced the northbound Reading-Newcastle journey time on a few services following the Derby remodelling. Best times saw the xx28 departure from Birmingham reaching Sheffield in just an hour, York in around 1hr50m and Newcastle in 2hr50m, and also overtaking the previous xx03 departure from Birmingham. Sadly Covid saw the service largely withdrawn.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That’s what I wondered too. I suppose it did have a short term Manchester to St Pancras service for a short while…

Which didn't serve Sheffield...

 

[swt_passenger]

Which didn't serve Sheffield...

Oh right. Memories are dim up north…

 

[d9009alycidon]

Glasgow and Birmingham, just 1tpd at the moment in that direction, and served by XC!!

Glasgoe to Leeds - also one direct train per day currently

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Glasgow Central to London getting an hourly service, while Edinburgh gets half-hourly via ECML, two-hourly via WCML and additional services from Lumo.

 

[WesternBiker]

Sheffield-Manchester is pretty poor, considering the size of the two cities.

That would get my vote. On a quick check, nothing scrapes much above 50mph average end to end.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sheffield-Manchester is pretty poor, considering the size of the two cities.

That would get my vote. On a quick check, nothing scrapes much above 50mph average end to end.

It gets my vote too.

 

[quantinghome]

Pre-covid, XC ran 2tph Sheffield-York, one via Leeds and the other via Doncaster.
The desire was to run both via Leeds, but there was never the capacity through Leeds, and more stock would have been needed for the longer route.

Yes, that's the cause of it. I'm sure a more frequent, faster service would be running if the line capacity was there. What has surprised me is that XC haven't mitigated this by running doubled up trains through Leeds.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, that's the cause of it. I'm sure a more frequent, faster service would be running if the line capacity was there. What has surprised me is that XC haven't mitigated this by running doubled up trains through Leeds.

They didn't have any available stock before the reduction in frequency to run double Voyagers on more than a handful of services. We have had threads before about the precedence given to operating through to Newcastle and Scotland rather than concentrating on the core part of the network. If the XC network ran from Bristol to Leeds rather than Plymouth to Edinburgh, Voyagers running Sheffield to Leeds could have been doubled up.