I was sitting in 1st Class on a XC service from Penzance yesterday morning. Around 10 minutes into the journey the usual clearly audible playing of Tik Tok videos started from a nearby fellow traveller. The train manager was in the 1st Class carriage, went to him and in all seriousness said, "we don't have a licence for live entertainment, have you got some headphones?" I was amazed. A licence, is that right? Blimey, that would have caused a riot on some trains I've caught recently! Yes, the fellow traveller did have headphones and he put them in.
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We haven't got a licence.....?
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If the music and/or recording are in copyright (ie not "ancient") then a licence is needed for broadcast in a public space. Most commonly encountered with restaurants, cafes and pubs, of course. But no reason why that doesn't apply to trains. It's the owner/operator of the public space who needs to be licensed (normally they're also the ones in control of the music being pumped out, but clearly not in this instance).
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Licence or otherwise, it’s a criminal offence to sing, or use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound, to the annoyance of another on the railway (except for with written permission from an operator.)
Headphones in, or music off - in my book.
Headphones in, or music off - in my book.
Topological
Established Member
That is a really good one.
Nice to see train managers using a bit of innovation in dealing with the noise.
Nice to see train managers using a bit of innovation in dealing with the noise.
I think the license argument is likely nonsense in reality (technically the case or not, I dont see action being taken in reality), but perhaps more likely the train manager saw it as a way to sort the anti-social behaviour in a way less likely to cause confrontation
DarloRich
Veteran Member
seems like a clever line to make a thoughtless person use some earphones!
Buzby
Established Member
He was being creative. They’ll be saying you cannot watch TV on the train because it needs a licence and XC doesn’t have one! (For good measure, that’s also a potential criminal offence). Rather than complicate the issue, he could have skipped the preamble and asked him to use headphones anyway?
For my biggest bugbear on trains is when everyone wants to make video calls, with speakers turned on and the phone held at arms length with no privacy- folk don’t seem to care anymore.
For my biggest bugbear on trains is when everyone wants to make video calls, with speakers turned on and the phone held at arms length with no privacy- folk don’t seem to care anymore.
Precisely. Good work by the train manager.
The manager is technically correct, the entertainment is licensed only for personal consumption, not the entire train. In real life, nobody would sue, the same way that schools do not get sued for showing films when they'd also be breaking the license in most cases.
Probably, people take more kindly to it than being told that they are irritating fellow passengers.
There are a lot of criminals on my commute then.
TikTok isn’t covered by the TV licence.
Wahoo, Bylaw 7
I'm still disappointed I never had the chance to book somebody for Bylaw 1 or Bylaw 8 though. Better watch out when that travel scrabble turns serious...
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Absolutely - I’m not sure how many people have been prosecuted for it ever but the offence is there.
Railway Bylaw 7 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws#conduct-and-behaviour-7:
The bylaws cover an awful lot, a useful tool where required. I remember being on a train some time back and there was a group of four around a table playing music using a Bluetooth speaker. I’d half guess that one of them were off duty railway staff because the guard said something along the lines of “you should know the bylaws as well as I do”. The music soon stopped.
Watch out for those queue jumpers too! It really goes to prove how helpful the bylaws can be - they just give backing to such the little nuances enough to be helpful to running a railway.
Technically he is correct:
www.gov.uk
PRS (usually for live performances) and PRL (for recorded or live music via radios etc) is needed for all businesses and organisations who play background music. TV shops have been fined in the past for not having one when they have a TV on for testing that can be heard in the shop. Of course people playing music on trains is probably pushing it a bit far but that is not to say it hasn't been done.
Get a licence to play live or recorded music
You usually need a licence from PPL PRS to play live or recorded music in public - includes playing background music at your business, and staging live music or theatre productions.
Buzby
Established Member
Feel free - Amazon Prime doesn’t need a licence, nether does any other streamed service (unless ‘as live’ from a terrestrial broadcaster). Since such licensing is covered by licensing the ADDRESS, good luck with that on a train hurtling down the track, so it may well fall to the TOC being liable… always assuming Crapita can mobilise themselves to seek restitution.
spyinthesky
Member
Pedantry continues….
Amazon and other streamed services don’t need a TV licence but a PRL if played in public
DaveyJones
Member
Interestingly this is what killed the at Seat Radio which was installed on Pendolino/Voyagers when Virgin introduced them...Technically he is correct:
PRS (usually for live performances) and PRL (for recorded or live music via radios etc) is needed for all businesses and organisations who play background music. TV shops have been fined in the past for not having one when they have a TV on for testing that can be heard in the shop. Of course people playing music on trains is probably pushing it a bit far but that is not to say it hasn't been done.Get a licence to play live or recorded music
You usually need a licence from PPL PRS to play live or recorded music in public - includes playing background music at your business, and staging live music or theatre productions.
Each Vehicle is a separate room, the pricing strategy of PRS is based on the number of rooms a venue/location has
Flying Snail
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While it is a clever approach it also avoids the truth that these people should be consistently told; playing crap from devices is selfish, rude, dis-respectful and anti-social.
Buzby
Established Member
I’m aware of that, however like TVL, PRL require a business address to be registered `(so the parallels are pretty similar). As we’ve discovered, it’s a pretty pointless - far better for the primacy of Railway Bylaws that exist, than a nonsensical assumption!
spyinthesky
Member
I agreeI’m aware of that, however like TVL, PRL require a business address to be registered `(so the parallels are pretty similar). As we’ve discovered, it’s a pretty pointless - far better for the primacy of Railway Bylaws that exist, than a nonsensical assumption!
Essan
Member
If you play music, even in your garden, that other people can hear, then, legally, you need a licence.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
You can watch TV on a laptop or mobile phone so long as you have a TV licence at home and the device is not plugged in. Technically, if your device is plugged in on the train then, unless the train has a licence, you are breaking the law.
You do not need a licence to play music in your garden regardless if other people can hear it or not. It is not a public or live performance. You also do not need a TV license on a train if you are not watching BBC iPlayer or ANY "live" TV"
dk1
Veteran Member
I never understand what makes people think it's acceptable.
Monty
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Phone calls on loudspeaker is what particularity draws my ire, strange thing is most of the time it's not even a video call. We do not need to catch up on the latest Eastenders worthy drama from your personal life. Unfortunately when I do attempt the address the issue they will often go back to what they were doing after I left the coach.
The live entertainment issue is a red-herring but as others mention it's an offence under the railway byelaws to use a device to reproduce sound on the railway to the annoyance of any other person.
(One wonders if the lack of headphone jacks in many recent phones necessitating special or wireless headphones has contributed to this noise nuisance. Back in the day I occasionally found myself offering people some cheap earbud type affair that I had picked up at Poundland and kept as spare.)
(One wonders if the lack of headphone jacks in many recent phones necessitating special or wireless headphones has contributed to this noise nuisance. Back in the day I occasionally found myself offering people some cheap earbud type affair that I had picked up at Poundland and kept as spare.)
Deepgreen
Established Member
There are a lot of criminals everywhere, every day, it's just that almost all get away with it.
fishwomp
Established Member
Is this true? The FAQ - which is not actually the text of the Communications Act - speaks of plugging into "mains". Depending on definitions here... I need to read the act but would be questioning..
A diesel or battery rail service, ship or aircraft with a power socket is not connecting to the grid - it does provide mains frequency and voltage - but is that "mains"? Is it battery operated (battery train), stretching further, is diesel a battery in that it is not connected to the grid.
Ditto for the 5V DC USB socket, that is not "mains" voltage (or frequency). Surely not mains.
And an electric train... Is that USB socket mains? .. I would say not.
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