WCML signalling

[The Planner]

in to P1 drops from 60 to 50 for this.
To do with P2 and existing flashers being 40mph so to mitigate and misread signals / routes.

Flashers on Hillmorton for half stations was always the reason I was told. Wrong decision when originally built in my view.

 

[Boodiggy]

Flashers on Hillmorton for half stations was always the reason I was told. Wrong decision when originally built in my view.

Agreed.

 

[jfollows]

Flashers on Hillmorton for half stations was always the reason I was told. Wrong decision when originally built in my view.

Would you mind elaborating a little please? I don’t understand what you’ve written! Thank you.

 

[The Planner]

Would you mind elaborating a little please? I don’t understand what you’ve written! Thank you.

Flashing Yellows were put in on the approach to Hillmorton Jn in the down direction so when half station blocks are taken for maintenance they get a quicker run through the up side of the station. This then left the run into P1 with a hideous release from red approach which was getting used once an hour on the Liverpool.

 

[jfollows]

Flashing Yellows were put in on the approach to Hillmorton Jn in the down direction so when half station blocks are taken for maintenance they get a quicker run through the up side of the station. This then left the run into P1 with a hideous release from red approach which was getting used once an hour on the Liverpool.

Thank you.
I agree that it does not appear sensible to speed up - slightly - trains routed around partial station blocks when the timetable includes significant extra recovery time in the schedules to allow for this whereas instead every down train stopping at platform 1 is delayed when no significant recovery time is included in the schedules.

 

[ac6000cw]

The WCML comprises a lot more than just London - Manchester. Most of the parts you've ignored were resignalled in the 1970s.

Quite - the 1960s resignalling also included Rugby to Stafford via Birmingham and Bescot, with major new 'panel' boxes at Coventry, New Street, Wolverhampton and Walsall.

 

[QueensCurve]

I’m not entirely sure where the first flashing aspects were but they became widespread in the 1980s. The WCML upgrade project of the early 2000s bought a good number to the WCML.

The first flashing yellows I recall seeing, around about 1984, where on the Down line on the approach to Weaver Junction.

 

[Railsigns]

The first flashing yellows I recall seeing, around about 1984, where on the Down line on the approach to Weaver Junction.

The first flashing yellows in the country were at Didcot in March 1979. I don't where they were first provided on the WCML, but Law Junction got them in April 1980.

 

[CW2]

Flashing Yellows were put in on the approach to Hillmorton Jn in the down direction so when half station blocks are taken for maintenance they get a quicker run through the up side of the station. This then left the run into P1 with a hideous release from red approach which was getting used once an hour on the Liverpool.

Surely the original plan was to use P1 at Rugby for trains towards the West Midlands, so the xx03 ex Euston. The xx33 Euston - Liverpool (peak hours only) used P2, and therefore benefited from the flashing yellow at Hilmorton?
It seems the subsequent rejigging of the timetable and stopping patterns in recent years resulted in a sub optimal solution.

 

[Elecman]

Aren't there also level crossings still at Meaford (Station Road), Church Lane (Redhill Road), Aston-by-Stone (Uttoxeter Road) and maybe one or two other level crossings or user worked gates as well?

Yes there are

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

Isn't Hest Bank now the first level crossing on the main line from Euston?
Generally from Weaver Jn northwards the signalling/layout dates from 1974 and is due for replacement (Carstairs-Glasgow already done).
This looks like being (with Crewe) the first deployment of ETCS on the WCML.
I note that ORR has moved some CP7 funding away from LNW(N) on the grounds the work can't be delivered in the time period (2024-29).

There is also Norton just south of Warrington

 

[The Planner]

Surely the original plan was to use P1 at Rugby for trains towards the West Midlands, so the xx03 ex Euston. The xx33 Euston - Liverpool (peak hours only) used P2, and therefore benefited from the flashing yellow at Hilmorton?
It seems the subsequent rejigging of the timetable and stopping patterns in recent years resulted in a sub optimal solution.

Yes, it was the 07 Liverpool that got knocked by the 03. Badly described by me.

 

[Ken H]

The 1980s were little changed from the 1960s, when the WCML was resignalled south-to-north until the budget was cut, at which point many LNWR and early BR signal boxes remained.
So from Euston it was:

• Euston
• Willesden Junction
• Watford Junction
• Bletchley
• Banbury Lane crossing
• Rugby
• Nuneaton

with the "new" stuff, but with 4 signal boxes in the Northampton area.
Then you had (to Manchester via Crewe) existing signal boxes repurposed with 4-aspect colour light signals but sometimes retaining mechanical points and ground signals:

• Atherstone
• Polesworth
• Tamworth
• Coton Crossing
• Hademore Crossing
• Lichfield
• Colwich Junction
• Stafford No. 4
• Stafford No. 5
• Norton Bridge (new signal box in the 1960s)
• Madeley
• Betley Road
• Basford Hall Junction
• Crewe South Junction
• Crewe Station A (some platforms only)
• Crewe North Junction
• Sandbach (new)
• Wilmslow (new)
• Cheadle Hulme
• Adswood Road Junction
• Edgeley Junction No. 1
• Edgeley Junction No. 2
• Stockport No. 1
• Stockport No. 2
• Heaton Norris Junction
• Manchester London Road (new)

via Stoke you had after Colwich Junction

• Meaford Crossing
• Stoke-on-Trent (new)
• Grange Junction
• Bradwell Sidings
• Kidsgrove
• Mow Cop
• Macclesfield

I may have missed one or two, but it's from when I used to use the line a lot, and it included a number of very small boxes such as Bradwell Sidings and Adswood Road.
Some gradual improvements abolished a number of these boxes - Atherstone, Adswood Road went quite early and Crewe was remodelled, for example.
It was all 4-aspect, including the Styal Line which has since - unfortunately - been resignalled as 3-aspect.
Now I lose track of which "regional operating centre" or whatnot controls which area, but the five Stockport boxes remain, following an aborted attempt to replace them a number of years ago. Manchester South replaces most others in my area, including Macclesfield most recently. Crewe remains as resignalled in the mid-1980s. But the WCML modernisation prior to the introduction of Pendolinos essentially swept away a lot of the old stuff, which had been only changed gradually and piecemeal prior to then.
The two Stafford signal boxes survived this, which is why the earlier post refers to their replacement as pretty much the most recent change.
Basford Hall Junction is the first “traditional” signal box you’ll see today on the route from London.

Atherstone went about 1990. Its control area transferred to Nuneaton. I think Polesworth lasted a little longer. The old relay room of the Atherstone signal box was retained. I think the route relay stuff in there was still in use.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is also Norton just south of Warrington

I think that was a bridle path that was given a subway for horses, but the foot crossing apparently remains.
The line speed is unaffected though (110/125EPS).

 

[jfollows]

Atherstone went about 1990. Its control area transferred to Nuneaton. I think Polesworth lasted a little longer. The old relay room of the Atherstone signal box was retained. I think the route relay stuff in there was still in use.

Many thanks - my notes only say that Atherstone was still a block post in April 1981 but with its pointwork removed - until then there were crossovers between running lines. As at Polesworth also which seemed to last longer indeed.

 

[CW2]

Yes, it was the 07 Liverpool that got knocked by the 03. Badly described by me.

Ah yes, that makes more sense. It has been interesting to see how the WCML timetable has evolved in recent years.

 

[Ken H]

Many thanks - my notes only say that Atherstone was still a block post in April 1981 but with its pointwork removed - until then there were crossovers between running lines. As at Polesworth also which seemed to last longer indeed.

WCML electrification was really done on the cheap. Boxes at Euston, Watford ? and Rugby and Nuneaton then mechanical interlocking Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth TV, Litchfield TV (Was there a box between for a level crossing or was it a gate box?), then a power installation at Rugeley, then mechanical through Stafford and Crewe except for a small panel at Norton Bridge. not sure about between Crewe and Weaver Jct, then into the 70's power boxes at Warrington, Preston and Carlisle.
And lets not forget Stockport!
They will have to replace Warrington, Preston and Carlisle soon. They are 50 years old now.

 

[The Planner]

They will have to replace Warrington, Preston and Carlisle soon. They are 50 years old now.

They are on the list to be replaced with ETCS.

 

[jfollows]

not sure about between Crewe and Weaver Jct,

North of Crewe is Coal Yard, Winsford, Hartford Junction (no longer), Weaver Junction (no longer), then Warrington PSB. Winsford took over the other two.
South of Crewe I already posted a fuller list earlier. You missed Willesden and Bletchley PSBs, for example. And there were two crossing block posts between Tamworth and Lichfield.

EDIT I think Crewe Coal Yard may have finally gone also, maybe in 2020, I haven’t been past since Covid. But it’s still in the Sectional Appendix and I found notes that its planned removal didn’t happen.

 

[40129]

AFAIK there is no underpass for horses (or anything else) at Norton Crossing which appears to be quite well used by locals. What will happen to its usage levels when all he proposed housing is built remains to be seen. I believe the road from Murdishaw to the crossing is to be retained as some form of green corridor in between two sizeable housing developments.

Coal Yard signal box is still in use

 

[jfollows]

AFAIK there is no underpass for horses (or anything else) at Norton Crossing which appears to be quite well used by locals. What will happen to its usage levels when all he proposed housing is built remains to be seen. I believe the road from Murdishaw to the crossing is to be retained as some form of green corridor in between two sizeable housing developments.

Coal Yard signal box is still in use

Norton Crossing - my memory aligns with yours (no underpass), I used to work in Daresbury Laboratory and occasionally walked there from Runcorn East which involved using Norton Crossing.
Coal Yard - thank you. I was confused by Open Train Times (https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/crewe) which ignores it but instead assigns its signals to Crewe (CE).

 

[DerekC]

A read of the report into the Colwich Junction accident (19th September 1986) will tell you a lot about flashing yellows, how they were applied and how that changed after the accident. Available on Railways Archive.

 

[jfollows]

A read of the report into the Colwich Junction accident (19th September 1986) will tell you a lot about flashing yellows, how they were applied and how that changed after the accident. Available on Railways Archive.

See also discussion here, for example https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/colwich-junction-in-the-1980s-vs-today

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are on the list to be replaced with ETCS.

Although Preston controls a long way, into Yorkshire at Todmorden.
Warrington controls the middle section of the Chat Moss line too (though not the CLC route in its backyard!).
ETCS transition could be a big job.

 

[Bald Rick]

WCML electrification was really done on the cheap. Boxes at Euston, Watford ? and Rugby and Nuneaton then mechanical interlocking Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth TV, Litchfield TV (Was there a box between for a level crossing or was it a gate box?), then a power installation at Rugeley, then mechanical through Stafford and Crewe except for a small panel at Norton Bridge. not sure about between Crewe and Weaver Jct, then into the 70's power boxes at Warrington, Preston and Carlisle.
And lets not forget Stockport!
They will have to replace Warrington, Preston and Carlisle soon. They are 50 years old now.

You missed Bletchley PSB.

 

[jfollows]

You missed Bletchley PSB.

and …? (hint - posted above!) (WN but not Wolverhampton)

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

They are on the list to be replaced with ETCS.

I read that dates were roughly:

2030 - Warrington
2032 - Preston
2035 - Carlisle

All connected to various CP7 works. Then later read that some of this work will moved to CP8. Will this affect those dates?

(Info was taken from articles in Rail Magazine over the last couple of months!)

 

[rower40]

The bi-di between Rugby and Lichfield is worth further scrutiny. To my knowledge, it’s the only bi-directional 4-track in the country. Elsewhere it’s assumed that during engineering work, all traffic can be accommodated by two of the 4 tracks in the normal direction.

Can anyone advise how often the bidi facility gets used?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

WCML electrification was really done on the cheap.

That was because there was a project review half-way through, which cut the budget and left manual boxes beyond Nuneaton.
By then miles of gantries and wires had been put up on the over-engineered sections around Manchester, Liverpool and Crewe which were hardly ever used.
Some of them are still there (devoid of wires) - eg at Edge Hill.
The DfT nearly cancelled the whole project at that point, but finally allowed it to complete with a revised spec.

I think that was also the point when ECML electrification, which had been mooted in the 1955 modernisation plan, was canned.
It wasn't the only post-war project which broke its budget and had to be cut back.

 

[The Planner]

I read that dates were roughly:

2030 - Warrington
2032 - Preston
2035 - Carlisle

All connected to various CP7 works. Then later read that some of this work will moved to CP8. Will this affect those dates?

(Info was taken from articles in Rail Magazine over the last couple of months!)

Considering 2030 is CP8, I expect they will shift a bit more.

 

[edwin_m]

The first flashing yellows in the country were at Didcot in March 1979. I don't where they were first provided on the WCML, but Law Junction got them in April 1980.

That late? I recall a Modern Railways article before HST introduction saying the better braking of HSTs meant they could slow down later for approach controlled signals and might therefore end up overspeeding at junctions (must have been keeping the junction signal at yellow so the driver was braking for the red beyond it). That would have been around 1975.

WCML electrification was really done on the cheap. Boxes at Euston, Watford ? and Rugby and Nuneaton then mechanical interlocking Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth TV, Litchfield TV (Was there a box between for a level crossing or was it a gate box?), then a power installation at Rugeley, then mechanical through Stafford and Crewe except for a small panel at Norton Bridge. not sure about between Crewe and Weaver Jct, then into the 70's power boxes at Warrington, Preston and Carlisle.
And lets not forget Stockport!
They will have to replace Warrington, Preston and Carlisle soon. They are 50 years old now.

I think it's more fair to say that for the original London-Manchester/Liverpool scheme, the electrification itself was done to a reasonable level, possibly with some over-engineering particularly on the early sections. It didn't use headspans and never suffered from the sort of problems the later schemes had on the MML and ECML. It was the re-signalling that got cut back when the money started to run out.