WCML Disruption 03/09

[RailwayRookie]

So how does this tally with "A fault on a train?" or " a train fault between Oxenholme and Lancaster." Are they admitting that their train pulled down the wires but managed to arrive in Oxenholme? This sort of mealy-mouthed/ evasive "explanation" just undermines what little credibility they have!

Because that was the best explanation they had at the time perhaps?

If the train stopped and they took the time to diagnose the issue before reporting anything im sure you would be complaining about the lack of timely information instead.

Not everything is a conspiracy chap.

 

[MCR247]

So how does this tally with "A fault on a train?" or " a train fault between Oxenholme and Lancaster." Are they admitting that their train pulled down the wires but managed to arrive in Oxenholme? This sort of mealy-mouthed/ evasive "explanation" just undermines what little credibility they have!

Maybe some tin foil hats got caught in the wires?

 

[MontyP]

Lack of information = conspiracy

It does feel at times that a pasenger with a passive or semi-active interest in how the rail network works and has access to Traksy, RTT, etc, is better able to understand what is going on than rail industry staff. I don't want to criticize but the Avanti staff at Glasgow C this afternoon were utterly clueless.

 

[RailwayRookie]

Lack of information = conspiracy

It does feel at times that a pasenger with a passive or semi-active interest in how the rail network works and has access to Traksy, RTT, etc, is better able to understand what is going on than rail industry staff. I don't want to criticize but the Avanti staff at Glasgow C this afternoon were utterly clueless.

Its been discussed greatly in a recent thread about "lack of communication" that it isnt as cut and dry as people seem to think getting information around to relevant stakeholders.

While your passenger with an interest may be correct in their assumptions, they can also be wildly wrong.

(Theres a great post somewhere of a guy discussing how an AWS fault shouldn't delay a train as much as it was until he was told that train then went on to hit someone on the track after being rectified)

The point im making here is that the staff may know more than they are saying, or they may not have received any information at all yet. But if they tell you something that the company isn't also backing officially, Joe passenger gets awfully upset about 'being lied to' when the official statement comes through.

Ironically for me, the amount of 'informed' members of the public has made me less likely to tell them anything i know that isnt already advertised elsewhere in the public domain.

 

[Foxcover]

Lack of information = conspiracy

It does feel at times that a pasenger with a passive or semi-active interest in how the rail network works and has access to Traksy, RTT, etc, is better able to understand what is going on than rail industry staff. I don't want to criticize but the Avanti staff at Glasgow C this afternoon were utterly clueless.

TPE were excellent - all the train crew of the cancelled 1611 were with the passengers giving advice. But then again, at least they had advice to give and had ticket acceptance to offer. Is the reason Avanti couldn‘t get acceptance because of the ownership, or because of the volumes?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2025 ==

It’s nice to call out when things are done well, so a shout out as well to CrossCountry and TPE control who made sure the Newcastle - Liverpool was held at Newcastle to let the slightly delayed XC through first, for a same-platform connection at Durham. The XC train managers came through the train to make sure people knew not to worry about the connection. A challenging set of circumstances managed through good communication on the east coast, less so I appreciate for others on the west coast.

 

[MontyP]

Its been discussed greatly in a recent thread about "lack of communication" that it isnt as cut and dry as people seem to think getting information around to relevant stakeholders.

While your passenger with an interest may be correct in their assumptions, they can also be wildly wrong.

(Theres a great post somewhere of a guy discussing how an AWS fault shouldn't delay a train as much as it was until he was told that train then went on to hit someone on the track after being rectified)

The point im making here is that the staff may know more than they are saying, or they may not have received any information at all yet. But if they tell you something that the company isn't also backing officially, Joe passenger gets awfully upset about 'being lied to' when the official statement comes through.

Ironically for me, the amount of 'informed' members of the public has made me less likely to tell them anything i know that isnt already advertised elsewhere in the public domain.

I definitely knew more than Railway staff at Glasgow around 5pm tonight - for example they were not aware that the 1830 Edinburgh to KX was cancelled even though they were directing London passengers to travel via Edinburgh. It was probably still the right move for anyone who needed to be in London tonight (albeit after 0100) but what is galling is that information that is in the public domain is not being passed on to staff on the frontline in a useable way.

 

[londonmidland]

1S25 Caledonian Sleeper sat in Euston Platform 1. Wonder how long it'll sit here for and how far north it'll get?

 

[SuspectUsual]

1S25 Caledonian Sleeper sat in Euston Platform 1. Wonder how long it'll sit here for and how far north it'll get?

1B01 is already nearly at Crianlarich - do they know it’ll be OK by the time they get there, or have they taken a chance on it?

 

[MontyP]

1B01 is already nearly at Crianlarich - do they know it’ll be OK by the time they get there, or have they taken a chance on it?

All sleepers cancelled tonight. Looks like they are letting passengers sleep on the trains at the origin station overnight and then catching early day trains.

 

[Tilting007]

Lack of information = conspiracy

It does feel at times that a pasenger with a passive or semi-active interest in how the rail network works and has access to Traksy, RTT, etc, is better able to understand what is going on than rail industry staff. I don't want to criticize but the Avanti staff at Glasgow C this afternoon were utterly clueless.

Absolute nonsence.

The control staff will absolutely know as will the responding staff.

Station staff will work off the info they are given as an incident evolves. It will be a very fluid situation and in a lot of cases they are dealing with people who angry and upset their journey is disrupted while working with ever changing situations. It must be one of the hardest jobs in the industry during disruption.

RTT etc just shows where trains are, they do not have any incident detail at all so anything you think you understand is just assumption.
In reality it is far more complex with several parts being worked through to get to a steady state.

 

[SuspectUsual]

All sleepers cancelled tonight. Looks like they are letting passengers sleep on the trains at the origin station overnight and then catching early day trains.

Presumably the Fort Bill is coming down to Edinburgh then so people can be on the first day train in the morning?

 

[thejuggler]

1S25 Caledonian Sleeper sat in Euston Platform 1. Wonder how long it'll sit here for and how far north it'll get?

It is going nowhere. Cabins will be a hotel for those who want/need it before onward travel tomorrow.

 

[MontyP]

Absolute nonsence.

The control staff will absolutely know as will the responding staff.

Station staff will work off the info they are given as an incident evolves. It will be a very fluid situation and in a lot of cases they are dealing with people who angry and upset their journey is disrupted while working with ever changing situations. It must be one of the hardest jobs in the industry during disruption.

RTT etc just shows where trains are, they do not have any incident detail at all so anything you think you understand is just assumption.
In reality it is far more complex with several parts being worked through to get to a steady state.

The staff at Glasgow thanked me for the info I gave them and said that I had more knowledge than they had, and passed it on to the supervisor. So I think it's you that is talking "absolute nonsense". Unless you were at GLC at 1700 tonight and know better?

And the info on the cancelled 1830 from Edinburgh was available on NRE so the platform staff should definitely have been aware of this.

 

[trainophile]

I was booked on the 16:48 Euston from Carlisle to Preston. When I saw things developing on the departures boards I asked an Avanti TM, who said to just get on anything as nobody knew what was happening. The very delayed 15:47 was standing in platform 3 so I got on that, thinking that they would let the earliest timed departures go first when things got moving again.

TM was updating us over a faulty (too quiet) PA at regular intervals, but mostly saying he had no more information. Eventually I walked down the platform and found a guy in an Avanti lanyard, who was off duty but said he’d just heard that the train was now cancelled. As was the 16:07 on P4.

People for London were told to head for Newcastle, which would have been fun on a 2-coach Northern, and everyone else to wait for further information, as they were not having any luck sourcing RRBs.

Everyone milled around on P4, and after a while we were told to queue for taxis to Preston, with London passengers given priority.

We shuffled forward and eventually were allocated taxis, which, in my case at least, did a sterling job in double quick time and awful road conditions with spray from the vehicles in front.

The queues at Preston for RRBs were massive, I was glad I was going to Blackpool as those weren’t affected.

I do think the rail staff on the ground did everything possible in a very confusing situation.

 

[sheff1]

And the info on the cancelled 1830 from Edinburgh was available on NRE so the platform staff should definitely have been aware of this.

Indeed. If you advising people to travel somewhere to catch a connecting train, surely you check that it is still scheduled to run before you give that advice

 

[800001]

Indeed. If you advising people to travel somewhere to catch a connecting train, surely you check that it is still scheduled to run before you give that advice

At what time was the 18:30 Edinburgh to Kings Cross amended to start from Newcastle?

Before the disruption in WCML started? Or after?

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed. If you advising people to travel somewhere to catch a connecting train, surely you check that it is still scheduled to run before you give that advice

which is what frustrates so many of us (ex) railway people here. It seems that an "enthusiast" (or even/especially an ex-employee) with a mobile phone is way ahead of station staff in both understanding what has actually happened and - even more damningly - making an educated guess at what the options are for journeys.

I strongly suspect that the Balkanisation of Franchises/TOCs and the loss off all-line travel concessions (together with the universal use of journeyplanner-type apps) have had a major negative impact on the staff's understanding of the network or national geography and potential alternative routings.
I was taught to use/read the all-line BR timetable with its National index map for public enquiries when I first started at Bristol in 1974 and it has stood me in very good stead ever since.

 

[37069]

Down line has reopened. 1S98 (1930 EUS-GLC) has left Preston 52 late. Quite a lot of people on the platform at Preston joining it - after a very last minute platform change from 3 to 6. First train through on the Down was 4S38 Seaforth-Mossend. Up line still blocked.

Euston at 1730 had very little information, even as the Avanti website had the "Do Not Travel" order prominently displayed. Even once the 1830 (1S95) was shown as cancelled, there was no information suggesting that north of Preston was shut, though staff for the delayed 1737 (9S97) clearly knew it would terminate at Preston.

 

[D1537]

At what time was the 18:30 Edinburgh to Kings Cross amended to start from Newcastle?

Before the disruption in WCML started? Or after?

Probably whatever time it was decided to terminate 1S17 at Newcastle, which I'd guess would have been around 1630-1700 while it was stuck south of Darlington.

 

[37069]

After a trip through the Down Windermere, 1S98 left Oxenholme 66 late.

 

[Tugzrule]

The original issue was with 9M56. It stopped a mile or so south of Oxenholme with reports of pantograph damage/half missing. It did eventually manage to proceed after plans were beginning to be arranged for train to train evacuation or utilisation of the Crewe based Thunderbird

TPEs 1M88 was terminated in the platform at Oxenholme to allow Avanti 1M14 to arrive. As the TPE left into the loop there was an almighty bang and flash from the overheads just beneath the bridge to the south of the station. The unit managed to continue into the loop where it still resides now - I believe without power still

Crew on site said about seven 7 droppers down at that location.
Information on the platforms was very thorough and honest with the situation regarding availability (or lack of) for buses and taxis instead

Carlisle was the same for information. Between 1730 and 1930 2 buses and a minibus were used and no others could be sourced. Most passengers sent in 4 seater taxis

 

[37069]

The original issue was with 9M56. It stopped a mile or so south of Oxenholme with reports of pantograph damage/half missing. It did eventually manage to proceed after plans were beginning to be arranged for train to train evacuation or utilisation of the Crewe based Thunderbird

TPEs 1M88 was terminated in the platform at Oxenholme to allow Avanti 1M14 to arrive. As the TPE left into the loop there was an almighty bang and flash from the overheads just beneath the bridge to the south of the station. The unit managed to continue into the loop where it still resides now - I believe without power still

Crew on site said about seven 7 droppers down at that location.
Information on the platforms was very thorough and honest with the situation regarding availability (or lack of) for buses and taxis instead

Carlisle was the same for information. Between 1730 and 1930 2 buses and a minibus were used and no others could be sourced. Most passengers sent in 4 seater taxis

Unit off 1M88 in the Up loop at Oxenholme. Tail lights lit but nothing else.

1M14 in the Up platform, shut down.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I was booked on the 16:48 Euston from Carlisle to Preston. When I saw things developing on the departures boards I asked an Avanti TM, who said to just get on anything as nobody knew what was happening. The very delayed 15:47 was standing in platform 3 so I got on that, thinking that they would let the earliest timed departures go first when things got moving again.

TM was updating us over a faulty (too quiet) PA at regular intervals, but mostly saying he had no more information. Eventually I walked down the platform and found a guy in an Avanti lanyard, who was off duty but said he’d just heard that the train was now cancelled. As was the 16:07 on P4.

People for London were told to head for Newcastle, which would have been fun on a 2-coach Northern, and everyone else to wait for further information, as they were not having any luck sourcing RRBs.

Everyone milled around on P4, and after a while we were told to queue for taxis to Preston, with London passengers given priority.

We shuffled forward and eventually were allocated taxis, which, in my case at least, did a sterling job in double quick time and awful road conditions with spray from the vehicles in front.

The queues at Preston for RRBs were massive, I was glad I was going to Blackpool as those weren’t affected.

I do think the rail staff on the ground did everything possible in a very confusing situation.

I was there as well, I was booked on the 16:07 to Euston (ex-EDB) as far as Crewe, having arrived from Leeds to find your train in P3 and a TPE being terminated in P4. There was one member of platform staff on her phone just answering "I don't know" to everyone and one harassed older member of Avanti staff doing his best to communicate and shepherd people, and doing a decent job with no information. After a long wait at Lockerbie, my train did arrive about 50 late, and I boarded it partly to see what the TM would announce.

The information on the train was much more informed/honest than that on the platform, stating there was overhead wire damage and we were unlikely to move "for a long time" (I had gathered that from NRE which was being updated frequently), and as you said suggesting anyone for London gets the 17:24 Northern service to Newcastle.

I did take that option as it was practically my last chance to get home if abandoning. It was full and standing but not crush loaded, and I changed onto the LNER Aberdeen to Kings Cross at Newcastle.

I considered getting off at Doncaster to travel via Stockport and then Crewe but decided to abandon the journey and proceeded to Stevenage and home.

I had been mentally rehearsing my "adandoned journey" spiel but my ticket wasn't checked again, and my home station is unbarriered anyway. Plus I wasn't sure what a TPE guard would make of me boarding at Doncaster heading for Stockport, with a Leeds to Penrith and Penrith to Crewe split from many hours earlier...!

 

[Howardh]

I had been mentally rehearsing my "adandoned journey" spiel but my ticket wasn't checked again, and my home station is unbarriered anyway. Plus I wasn't sure what a TPE guard would make of me boarding at Doncaster heading for Stockport, with a Leeds to Penrith and Penrith to Crewe split from many hours earlier...!

Surely in such a situation as yesterday common sense prevails, allowing a pax to get to where s/he needs to be, or any alternative destination on the original ticket by any route or TOC?

In times if severe disruption has anyone been fined or prosecuted simply because they were finding alternative routes?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Surely in such a situation as yesterday common sense prevails, allowing a pax to get to where s/he needs to be, or any alternative destination on the original ticket by any route or TOC?

In times if severe disruption has anyone been fined or prosecuted simply because they were finding alternative routes?

I would hope so and expect it would have been fine, but the NRE page didnt explicitly say "any reasonable route" under the Avanti guidance, so I didn't feel I had anything to point to if challenged, as a fallback.

 

[trainophile]

Does anyone know how things are going today? I see a few early Avantis cancelled/delayed but they not giving much information beyond a couple of hours ahead.

I’m heading back home from Blackpool via Brum this morning, I was originally having a little trip to Morecambe and going home tomorrow, but in view of the weather decided yesterday to cut my break short. I already have a ticket to Lancaster, so without thinking it through I booked a train home from there, forgetting that I’d be doubling back PRE-LAN and immediately LAN-BHM via PRE!

I should have 7 minutes cross bridge connection at LAN, but in view of possible ongoing delays I’m thinking of hanging around at PRE until my southbound train comes through, and boarding there. I know that’s against the rules for Advances (I remember a case involving those very stations where a guy finished short at Preston many years ago and was prosecuted), but might it be acceptable today given the circumstances and uncertainty?

 

[tram21]

I should have 7 minutes cross bridge connection at LAN, but in view of possible ongoing delays I’m thinking of hanging around at PRE until my southbound train comes through, and boarding there. I know that’s against the rules for Advances (I remember a case involving those very stations where a guy finished short at Preston many years ago and was prosecuted), but might it be acceptable today given the circumstances and uncertainty?

That would never really cause an issue. Internal industry guidance says to do nothing about boarding/alighting short on Advance tickets, and it would be very unlikely to be ever found out anyway.

 

[185143]

Surely in such a situation as yesterday common sense prevails, allowing a pax to get to where s/he needs to be, or any alternative destination on the original ticket by any route or TOC?

In times if severe disruption has anyone been fined or prosecuted simply because they were finding alternative routes?

I've certainly experienced this on Northern in similar circumstances.

I was heading to Glasgow but got spun at Lockerbie and returned to Carlisle due to a landslip. The volume of people on the platform for the Newcastle train was unreal and there was still an Avanti train to return before that service would depart.

So I did the sensible thing and sacked off any hope of travelling anywhere for the time being and went to the pub. Got back to the station to travel back to Cheshire at a similar ish time than I would have left Glasgow, in order to catch the last Leeds train. Anyone and everyone was on that train, the guard was an absolute credit to the industry. He came through checking tickets but it was clearly more of a "anyone need any assistance" check. Anything even remotely reasonable was being accepted, and rightly so.

So I'd like to think that wasn't a one off, and it would be replicated elsewhere. I'm pretty sure I have read of a thread in the D&P section where someone has been done by revenue staff somewhere after a cancellation though!

 

[trainophile]

That would never really cause an issue. Internal industry guidance says to do nothing about boarding/alighting short on Advance tickets, and it would be very unlikely to be ever found out anyway.

Thanks, also I just thought that there’s usually a crew change at Preston so I doubt it would even be noticed.

 

[thejuggler]

It is going nowhere. Cabins will be a hotel for those who want/need it before onward travel tomorrow.

By way of update. I knew the status because we were due to travel and found out 5 minutes before boarding of the cancellation. I had read about the disruption at about 7pm, but understanding at that time was the service would operate as the repairs would have been completed before we reached the affected stretch.

This didn't happen so the sleeper rolled into Euston about 8.15pm and was cancelled 10 minutes later.

CS did arrange ticket acceptance, but the option of sleeping on the train and using an LNER to Edinburgh this morning didn't work as we needed to be in Fort William for 10am.

Sacked it and took a service home.

CS staff have been excellent, refund arranged for both the sleeper and the costs of the tickets home.

Just need to try and see if I can get a refund on our tickets from Oban back home for tomorrow, which are split tickets with a complicated mix of advanced and open singles!