Waterloo to be new Sleeper train hub?

[ValleyLines142]

Not quite true, the sleeper would turn off before it got to Clapham. Its route doesn't meet the Victoria–Clapham tracks at any point (although it dives under them). So it's only Waterloo services you need to path it around.

Ah I see; still, there's billions of trains to Waterloo. Good move if it can find a path though!

The Victoria lines and platforms at CLJ are totally separate from where the WLL joins heading to Waterloo, it is impossible for them to conflict each other.

Fair enough.

 

[Eagle]

Ah I see; still, there's billions of trains to Waterloo.

Not at 10pm! Not on an eight-track line!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Ah I see; still, there's billions of trains to Waterloo. Good move if it can find a path.

Billions? Are you serious?! Good lord.

At about 2300 there may be 20 trains leaving before 0000, of which maybe 6 maximum will use the Down Windsor Fast or Windsor Reversible that the Sleeper will need to traverse.

 

[MCR247]

Although the mornings could be a problem, you could simply retime the sleepers to leave earlier, and then just have them arrive before the am peak begins at around 5-6am, therefore you are achieving the goal of having them leave at a reasonable hour

 

[marks87]

Although the mornings could be a problem, you could simply retime the sleepers to leave earlier, and then just have them arrive before the am peak begins at around 5-6am, therefore you are achieving the goal of having them leave at a reasonable hour

And then, of course, if they're arriving at a dedicated sleeper terminal, there's no rush to move them so people can continue to sleep until 7/8am.

Although, it's probably not so good for people only going to Watford.

 

[Furrball]

Although the mornings could be a problem, you could simply retime the sleepers to leave earlier, and then just have them arrive before the am peak begins at around 5-6am, therefore you are achieving the goal of having them leave at a reasonable hour

Do not think that earlier departures southbound would be appreciated. Current departures are:

Aberdeen @ 21.42
Inverness @ 20:47
Fort William @ 19:50

I certainly would not want to be looking leaving Aberdeen at 8pm.

 

[Intercity]

dan the train man has trolled this thread good and proper.

i wish you'd all stop biting

 

[jon0844]

Are you implying that there's no trains in the night? Because that isn't the case. London has a 24-hour service on First Capital Connect and Southern routes, and South West Trains run a near 24-hour service too, albeit not as frequent as the day, but even so.

FCC TL has trains through the night, but they're hardly every few minutes. Nearer once an hour, so not likely to cause a major problem as the trains only go as bar as Bedford (and of course, in this case, on a different line anyway!).

The network is pretty empty and it's more likely engineering work than freight or passenger trains that will slow things down - hence the many possible diversions. With so much padding and recovery time, and people wanting to sleep and relax, a slow train is NOT a problem until the train becomes late - and that would need a lot to go wrong it seems.

Well regardless of how many trains there are (of which I don't care), then as I said if it can find a path then good.

You admitted you didn't know what padding meant. Do you know what a path is?!

 

[DarkestDreams]

Don't feed the trolls.

Personally, I could see Paddington working well as a sleeper terminal, but only after Crossrail is complete. Is there scope at Paddington to build dedicated lounges for sleeper passengers? Waterloo could always be used as a stopgap while Euston is rebuilt though - after the rebuild, the platforms would then become available for SWT.

 

[Essexman]

I wouldn't like to see the sleepers arrive any earlier.
Once it's stopped and people up & about, doors slamming etc, it's not really possible to sleep.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Are you implying that there's no trains in the night? Because that isn't the case. London has a 24-hour service on First Capital Connect and Southern routes, and South West Trains run a near 24-hour service too, albeit not as frequent as the day, but even so.

There are no SWT services departing Waterloo from 0139 to 0453. There will be some ECS services but there is nowhere near a 24-hour service!

 

[Zoe]

I believe Waterloo station is actually closed overnight for passengers unlike some other major London stations that stay open through the night.

 

[jon0844]

King's Cross closes for a short time, where I think they try and kick you out. St Pancras, however, remains open with a couple of 24 hour coffee shops (Starbucks may still be closed for refurb though). Not a great place to try and kip down at though!

 

[Rational Plan]

I believe Waterloo station is actually closed overnight for passengers unlike some other major London stations that stay open through the night.

SWT is the worst for late services. Currently I live in the Great Western and if you want to stay late in London then you can catch a train to my local station at 00.34 or if I catch a train to slough and then a mini cab home I can get a 1.30 0r 3.30 train.

When I used to catch trains on the Windsor line the last one is at 23.13. Once you factor in half an hour from you last venue to tube and to the Station you then start thinking about finishing your evening at 22.30! I remember once having to leave the encore at the theatre and literally sprinting to the tube, just making the tube and sprinting to platform 19 to just catching the last train home.

If they just ran last services after midnight it would make big difference.

 

[DarkestDreams]

King's Cross closes for a short time, where I think they try and kick you out. St Pancras, however, remains open with a couple of 24 hour coffee shops (Starbucks may still be closed for refurb though). Not a great place to try and kip down at though!

Starbucks has just reopened with new glass walls to keep out the cold, but they've taken away the comfy seats. Costa closed today for a refurb though.

 

[telstarbox]

Are you implying that there's no trains in the night? Because that isn't the case. London has a 24-hour service on First Capital Connect and Southern routes, and South West Trains run a near 24-hour service too, albeit not as frequent as the day, but even so.

Jesus wept...

 

[Aictos]

That's why I said platform the Highland as 2 portions, once boarding is complete draw the single 6 car EMU forward and reverse it onto the other 2 6 car EMUs. Then set off as an 18 car formation.

Not viable, due to signal sighting as the driver would pretty much be stopped just short of the tunnel and blocking the throat of Kings Cross.

 

[marks87]

How feasible would it be to start as two portions with one departing slightly ahead of the other, and joining at somewhere like Finsbury Park?

 

[DownSouth]

Not viable, due to signal sighting as the driver would pretty much be stopped just short of the tunnel and blocking the throat of Kings Cross.

On the contrary, quite viable. If it was decided that the best option for at least one of the sleepers was to have them departing from Kings Cross with split trains boarding at multiple platforms, a solution to make it work would be found. Other nations all over the world manage to handle long trains having boarding split over multiple platforms or the addition of car carriers. Surely the mighty railway system of Britain would be capable of sending some of their top brains on a research trip to find out how everybody else manages it. As they say, where there's a will there's a way.

If the two portions were both EMUs, the front portion could proceed to a point where the rear vehicle was clear of the points leading to the other platform, after which the other portion drives forward to couple. Scharfenberg couplings would make the process quick enough that it would only be a difference of a minute or two compared to having consecutive departures of two shorter trains. If they were coaches then it would be almost the same, with the loco which hauled the rear portion into the station pushing the coaches out to couple with the front portion, a process that could be even easier if the sleeper coaches were set up for push-pull with a cab at each end of the rake.

All of it would be done using the two platforms farthest across to one side of the station, and the corresponding track, so that only part of the station (one track in and only a couple of platforms other than those in use by the sleeper) is blocked and only for about five minutes.

How feasible would it be to start as two portions with one departing slightly ahead of the other, and joining at somewhere like Finsbury Park?

This is the point where it would start to become impractical. If you did it just outside the station it would be a significantly more efficient process because it's just shunting moves controlled locally. If you did it at some station further down the line you've got to have headway between the two trains and then the process of coupling the two portions.

If they were that bothered about problems in London they'd terminate it at Watford (which is clearly a silly idea).

If they were that bothered about problems in London they would hopefully get their s**t together and sort things out so all the other non-sleeper trains can run properly too!

 

[bluenoxid]

The problem is that some poor sods are facing a long walk when their service gets dumped on top of the sleeper at Waterloo. Getting dropped off a little out of London is not as much of a problem as getting picked up closer to London. Would a purpose built dropping off facility in a reasonably well accessible west London location be more preferable.

 

[marks87]

This is the point where it would start to become impractical. If you did it just outside the station it would be a significantly more efficient process because it's just shunting moves controlled locally. If you did it at some station further down the line you've got to have headway between the two trains and then the process of coupling the two portions.

But it could surely be done in Finsbury Park station. And that way, you avoid the need to reverse the first unit.

The only question would be the waiting time. What would be the minimum gap required between the departures from KGX?

 

[DownSouth]

But it could surely be done in Finsbury Park station. And that way, you avoid the need to reverse the first unit.

The only question would be the waiting time. What would be the minimum gap required between the departures from KGX?

There's no need to do it at Finsbury Park, if you do that you may as well have both units run separately the whole way. I reckon it would be faster overall if you did it just outside King's Cross like this...

The advantages of doing it just outside King's Cross compared to Finsbury Park is that the whole process would be done in one location without reversing moves, it could be done with a shunter propelling the second portion if they were coaches, and once coupled the full train can go through Finsbury Park at speed rather than coming to a halt to do the coupling.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Did Eurostar share tracks with SWT? Or more likely, what actually happened? It could be possible, at night, maybe for services to make calls at Clapham Junction or Wimbledon, another possibility may be to build new tracks via Croydon and head back up via Blackfriars, City Thameslink and St Pancras? Or would that be too impractical?

 

[amcluesent]

Rather than have abnormally long trains, maybe the capacity of Caledonian sleepers can be increased. Instead of having the separate cabins, use the model of airline FC cabins with 'sleeperette' seating like this from Singapore Airlines -

N.B. Just replace the trolley-dolly with Big Tam from Auchtermuchty

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Did Eurostar share tracks with SWT? Or more likely, what actually happened? It could be possible, at night, maybe for services to make calls at Clapham Junction or Wimbledon, another possibility may be to build new tracks via Croydon and head back up via Blackfriars, City Thameslink and St Pancras? Or would that be too impractical?

Yes, standard NR services and E* shared tracks until well into Kent after Farningham Road (I think) - SWT until just out of Waterloo, then SN (I think) and SE in South London, and SE into Kent. I doubt a call that close to London would be needed, certainly not Wimbledon. Via TL would be very impractical, especially at night. Further, you wouldn't have anywhere to 'wait' in the morning - everyone would literally have to be ready to get off at each station, even if it was 0600!

 

[LE Greys]

There's no need to do it at Finsbury Park, if you do that you may as well have both units run separately the whole way. I reckon it would be faster overall if you did it just outside King's Cross like this...

The advantages of doing it just outside King's Cross compared to Finsbury Park is that the whole process would be done in one location without reversing moves, it could be done with a shunter propelling the second portion if they were coaches, and once coupled the full train can go through Finsbury Park at speed rather than coming to a halt to do the coupling.

View attachment 9905

Something similar used to happen at King's Cross quite a lot. The Anglo-Scottish Car Carrier in particular used to start with an A4 coupling to the Motorail vans, then drawing forward into Gasworks Tunnel and backing down onto the passenger coaches, then starting from a good few coach lengths beyond the signal. One evacuation train did something similar with twenty-four coaches, which ended up with the loco actually inside the tunnel for starting.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Yes, SWT and E* shared tracks until well into Kent after Farningham Road (I think). I doubt a call that close to London would be needed, certainly not Wimbledon. Via TL would be very impractical, especially at night. Further, you wouldn't have anywhere to 'wait' in the morning - everyone would literally have to be ready to get off at each station, even if it was 0600!

You have a very good point. Clapham Junction has 17 or so platforms so there's ways around it, but anywhere else no, sadly, it seems. Where could the service go apart from via Watford at the moment?

 

[NSE]

Yes, SWT and E* shared tracks until well into Kent after Farningham Road (I think). I doubt a call that close to London would be needed, certainly not Wimbledon. Via TL would be very impractical, especially at night. Further, you wouldn't have anywhere to 'wait' in the morning - everyone would literally have to be ready to get off at each station, even if it was 0600!

Actually, just to be pedantic SWT only shared with E* up till the flyover just south of Vauxhall, then it was shared with SET to the Farningham Road area.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Jesus wept...

Is there a problem?

 

[Eagle]

Would a purpose built dropping off facility in a reasonably well accessible west London location be more preferable.

Kensington Olympia, perchance? It worked for Motorail! (Might be a little different being as passenger services through the WLL only restarted after Motorail had left...)