Water Troughs

[grumpyxch]

Not sure which section this post should be in, but as water troughs are ancient history now, I will try this one.

A few weeks ago I was reading one of the various railway magazines thast are on the market, and it had an article about water troughs. There was little technical information on them apart from being located on level straightish sections of track, and it mentioned having water tanks to refill them. What I wondered about was what happened if things went wrong and the loco didn't get the scoop up in time? Did it smash the end of the trough off? Was the end spring-loaded so the end was pushed down by the scoop but then sprang back to seal the trough? Did the local platelayers have a supply of bits of trough to repair any damage? Was the trough designed so that that the end would gradually push the scoop up so that the scoop just flipped off the end of the trough - the trough wasn't damaged and the loco had more time to raise the scoop? If the scoop was still down when the loco got to some points, did the points damage the scoop, or were the troughs set above track level so a lowered scoop would miss any rails?

Thanks for any help

 

[John Webb]

The ends of the trough had the base slowly rising upwards to contain the water and presumably also push the scoop up.
But Brian Hollingsworth's book "How to Drive a Steam Locomotive" (1979, Astragal Book) says the scoop was lowered and raised by a screwthread mechanism and the fireman had to be careful in when he lowered the scoop and be prompt to raise it up.
The BR book from 1957 "Handbook for Railway Steam Locomotive Enginemen" stresses the need that during the preparation check before moving the loco off shed, the scoop was fully up and the operating handle firmly clipped or chained in position to prevent the scoop dropping down and catching on pointwork etc.

 

[52290]

If you had your head stuck out of the window of the carriage next to the loco ,as I did once, and the fireman didn't pull the scoop up in time, then you would get a free cold shower.

 

[grumpyxch]

Thankyou John. One of my theories seems to agree with you. I suppose the screwthread wouldn't attach to the scoop but would have a small platform that would be raised or lowered along the screwthread. This platform would be under a flat ledge on the scoop so would able to lift the scoop - that way the sloping trough floor could push the scoop up because the screwthread didn't hold the scoop down, and this screwthread wouldn't reach down to rail top so it wouldn't catch rails.

Sorry, its a bit difficult to describe the design I'm thinking of - a drawing would be better, but I haven't got the software to do that. Whatever, the system worked reasonably reliably so they must have known what they were doing

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

If you had your head stuck out of the window of the carriage next to the loco ,as I did once, and the fireman didn't pull the scoop up in time, then you would get a free cold shower.

Yes there are many photos of the first carriage getting an early bath. I've never seen a photo of any of the passengers afterwards. Perhaps you missed a historic photo then. Ian Allen would have been pleased - sorry, my sense of humour out of control. The only thing I ever got from having my head out of the window was a small piece of clinker stuck in my left iris - that required a visit to hospital for them to dig it out with a needle

 

[Merle Haggard]

The ends of the trough had the base slowly rising upwards to contain the water and presumably also push the scoop up.
But Brian Hollingsworth's book "How to Drive a Steam Locomotive" (1979, Astragal Book) says the scoop was lowered and raised by a screwthread mechanism and the fireman had to be careful in when he lowered the scoop and be prompt to raise it up.
The BR book from 1957 "Handbook for Railway Steam Locomotive Enginemen" stresses the need that during the preparation check before moving the loco off shed, the scoop was fully up and the operating handle firmly clipped or chained in position to prevent the scoop dropping down and catching on pointwork etc.

The trough had the base rising at the ends, as you say, but this was only to contain the water. The scoop never made contact with the trough even if the fireman didn't raise the scoop, because the track also dipped slightly over the troughs.
A scoop still in the lowered position would clear the end of the trough but would strike, for instance, wooden foot crossings that were slightly above rail level.This was the reason for making sure the scoop was raised leaving the shed.
Ramsbottom of the LNWR patented the water trough. The LNWR allowed the GWR to use the patent in exchange for the use of a GWR patent but, curiously, although the concept was, eventually, used by all except the Southern the dimensions of the trough and scoop were not, at least to start with, standardised. I might be wrong, but I think this may have caused some problems in the GWR/LNWR loco exchanges.

 

[LYradial]

Water troughs: Simple, revolutionary invention for long-distance rail travel | The Railway Magazine

It was a relatively simple invention yet it revolutionised long-distance train travel for more than a century.

www.railwaymagazine.co.uk

this article from the railway magazine should help, it is a fairly detailed history of the operation including a couple of drawings and explaination of how the engine crew used them.

 

[pdeaves]

Some additional information including rule book extracts here.

Water troughs

Railway national network water trough locations with lengths and mileages

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

 

[Merle Haggard]

Just to add that water troughs weren't only used by steam locos; I remember, on a school trip to Chester changing at Crewe in 1961 the EE4's second man used the scoop at Hademoor. Probably to avoid the acrobatics needed to use the bodyside filler.
Not sure if all the EE4s had scoops, or whether other classes did.

 

[WesternLancer]

Water troughs: Simple, revolutionary invention for long-distance rail travel | The Railway Magazine

It was a relatively simple invention yet it revolutionised long-distance train travel for more than a century.

www.railwaymagazine.co.uk

this article from the railway magazine should help, it is a fairly detailed history of the operation including a couple of drawings and explaination of how the engine crew used them.

That's a great article linked there - including a good few dramatic pics of overflows plus what is perhaps an unusual photo of a EE Type 4 (Class 40) diesel taking water, as referred to by @Merle Haggard in post #8

Useful list of all the troughs too at the end.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That's a great article linked there - including a good few dramatic pics of overflows plus what is perhaps an unusual photo of a EE Type 4 (Class 40) diesel taking water, as referred to by @Merle Haggard in post #8

Useful list of all the troughs too at the end.

I think that EE4s taking water at troughs was not unusual; I think that the boiler tank filler was at the top of the bodyside, reached by steps inset into the body which you had to climb carrying the 'bag' as well. Obviously other dangers as the OLE spread South. I hadn't looked at the article when I posted.
I also remember 8Fs on coal trains taking water* at troughs presumably for similar labour-saving reasons

The recently-late Tommy Tomalin took a large number of photos at Castlethorpe troughs, sometimes standing between the Up Fast and Down Slow - knowing the signalman helped him, but I wouldn't fancy jumping over a trough to avoid being soaked. He also took photos from the top of the descaling towers which make me dizzy just looking at them! They were all available on the Colour-rail BRM series.

*at about 25 mph, so not sure how much got picked up.

 

[High Dyke]

Whilst it doesn’t explain what would happen should a locomotive fail to have its scoop retracted in time, this video does mention the downside of the replenished water tank overflowing.

Video explaining about steam locomotive water troughs.

 

[grumpyxch]

Water troughs: Simple, revolutionary invention for long-distance rail travel | The Railway Magazine

It was a relatively simple invention yet it revolutionised long-distance train travel for more than a century.

www.railwaymagazine.co.uk

this article from the railway magazine should help, it is a fairly detailed history of the operation including a couple of drawings and explaination of how the engine crew used them.

That was brilliant. It answered everything. Thankyou

 

[Merle Haggard]

Whilst it doesn’t explain what would happen should a locomotive fail to have its scoop retracted in time, this video does mention the downside of the replenished water tank overflowing.

Video explaining about steam locomotive water troughs.

The GWR built some tank locos (obviously with comparatively limited water space in the tanks) and what turned out to be undersized vents. The early result was not what you illustrate, but the expansion of the tank sides. It is 'God's Wonderful' - are we allowed to laugh?

 

[High Dyke]

The GWR built some tank locos (obviously with comparatively limited water space in the tanks) and what turned out to be undersized vents. The early result was not what you illustrate, but the expansion of the tank sides. It is 'God's Wonderful' - are we allowed to laugh?

Permission to laugh granted. Carry on.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think that EE4s taking water at troughs was not unusual; I think that the boiler tank filler was at the top of the bodyside, reached by steps inset into the body which you had to climb carrying the 'bag' as well. Obviously other dangers as the OLE spread South. I hadn't looked at the article when I posted.
I also remember 8Fs on coal trains taking water* at troughs presumably for similar labour-saving reasons

The recently-late Tommy Tomalin took a large number of photos at Castlethorpe troughs, sometimes standing between the Up Fast and Down Slow - knowing the signalman helped him, but I wouldn't fancy jumping over a trough to avoid being soaked. He also took photos from the top of the descaling towers which make me dizzy just looking at them! They were all available on the Colour-rail BRM series.

*at about 25 mph, so not sure how much got picked up.

Thanks for that - notable to think that not as unusual as i thought then, for the very logical points you make.

Occurs to wonder if troughs then survived beyond the end of steam for diesels to use like this then? Or were staff then expected to use the more awkward bodyside method outlined?

I just did a brief search on colour rail for Castlethorpe troughs and a good few images come up, some of which might possibly be from the tower but it's not immediately clear if they are or not.

 

[Rescars]

To avoid unhappy diners and premature washing up, IIRC there was a specific instruction for restaurant car stewards to close all windows when the train was approaching troughs if the restaurant car was coupled next to the loco.

Presumably on the GWR, a low-hanging scoop would wreck havoc with any ATC ramps it encountered.

 

[Merle Haggard]

To avoid unhappy diners and premature washing up, IIRC there was a specific instruction for restaurant car stewards to close all windows when the train was approaching troughs if the restaurant car was coupled next to the loco.

Presumably on the GWR, a low-hanging scoop would wreck havoc with any ATC ramps it encountered.

Slightly off topic I realise but the London (Western) Division of the LMR had received new the last few Sulzer 2s to be built - D7667 omwards from memory). These looked very snazzy - blue with full yellow fronts and yellow miniature snow ploughs. The last named were useful (??) in locating barrow and foot crossings where the woodwork in the 4 foot was a little high...

 

[Taunton]

I think the last diesel class to use troughs were the Deltics, for even after air-con stock came to the ECML the overnight services, which always needed more heating attention than the daytime services, continued to be steam heated (and mark 1 seated carriages), right up to the Mark 3 sleepers coming in). The scoops were powered by a compressed air mechanism. Apparently the boilers in the Deltics were not as good as in the later Class 47, and needed to be run flat out all night. After the end of steam locos the ECML troughs were set at a lower water level by adjusting the ball cock in the supply pipe, as just the heating did not need the full amount, something which then nearly wrecked a non-stop attempt by Flying Scotsman to Edinburgh.

If really cold, though, the troughs would of course freeze. The Cornish Riviera, in steam days, would stop for water in Taunton station if the troughs at Creech, just to the east, were frozen. A special sign was hung outside a given signalbox to advise drivers.

 

[Ashley Hill]

ISTR reading in one of those footplate reminiscences books that a solid block was fitted in the 4ft just after the end of a trough. It’s purpose was to smash off a scoop that hadn’t been raised, therefore preventing damage to pointwork, crossings etc. ahead.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The Deltics were the last diesels to use troughs, the last in use being Wiske Moor. The Deltics were built with scoops in mind so their boiler water capacity was relatively limited. It wasn’t anything to do with the Spanner 2 vs Spanner 3 situation although the Spanner 3 was undoubtably a better boiler for long trains on the ECML.

The use of troughs and scoops ended in 1970 when the additional water capacity mod on the Deltics was completed. That was the year before the Air Con stock was introduced but the mod ensured that a Deltic could work a Scottish sleeper without having to replenish or be replaced en route.

The scoops used to get quite a bit of hammer and any defects were treated as a priority for repair.

 

[AndrewE]

For some reason Youtueb just suggested this to me:

see 2 mins onwards...

 

[Flying Phil]

When I looked at "City of Birmingham," in the museum at Birmingham, I noticed that the actual scoop part was made of thick tough leather so presumeably not to cause possible damage to the trough end?

 

[DelW]

When I looked at "City of Birmingham," in the museum at Birmingham, I noticed that the actual scoop part was made of thick tough leather so presumeably not to cause possible damage to the trough end?

I would think that using a scoop with a little flexibility would also help with keeping it in contact with the trough. Even if the level of the trough itself was kept accurate, there would be an element of variation of the scoop's position, from the springing of the tender.

A rigid steel scoop might need to have a minimum clearance from the trough which would reduce its effectiveness. The water flow would tend to push leather against the sides and floor of the trough, maximising the scoop's flow rate.

 

[Gloster]

A bit of searching around found an article that said that the front of the scoop had a thin steel cutting edge that could be easily replaced. This suggests that the end of the troughs were designed to push the scoop up if the crew had failed to raise it manually. It would presumably then be much easier to raise the scoop without the pressure of water holding it down. One assumes that there was nothing in the four foot immediately after the troughs.

 

[contrex]

Yes there are many photos of the first carriage getting an early bath. I've never seen a photo of any of the passengers afterwards. Perhaps you missed a historic photo then. Ian Allen would have been pleased - sorry, my sense of humour out of control. The only thing I ever got from having my head out of the window was a small piece of clinker stuck in my left iris - that required a visit to hospital for them to dig it out with a needle

I seem to remember a senior (real) LNER engineer died in 1938 approx after he was riding on the footplate of a loco which, at speed, passed another, also at speed, coming the other way, which was filling from a trough. The water overflowed in a deluge which struck his loco, smashing the cab spectacle glass and driving a splinter of it through an eye and into his brain.

 

[Taunton]

This suggests that the end of the troughs were designed to push the scoop up if the crew had failed to raise it manually. It would presumably then be much easier to raise the scoop without the pressure of water holding it down. One assumes that there was nothing in the four foot immediately after the troughs.

It was. I used to look at the detail of the Creech troughs on the other tracks when approaching Taunton, there was a long dry bit at both ends where it presumably rose a bit above water level, though on the old GWR you also had to keep clear of the ATC/AWS equipment on locos. The dry part seemed to extend several hundred yards. It must have been a real challenge to find sections completely level, and well clear of ATC ramps, occupation crossings, pointwork, and such like. Creech was an ideal location, running alongside the canal so level by definition, a ready water supply, and the canal actually owned by the railway (bought in earlier Victorian times) so no charge for it.

I wonder if any significant civils had to be done initially to make troughs sections perfectly level.

 

[Gonzoiku]

If interested, you may like to track down the October 2025 edition of Steam World which has several pages of good photos of LMS troughs and some words too.

GZ

 

[EbbwJunction1]

There's a display on water troughs, including an example of the actual scoop, at Didcot Railway Centre. It's not really obvious, but can be found outside the Signalling Centre near to the Museum.

 

[Skipness]

I can recall many journeys over the Wiske Moor troughs south of Darlington.
There was a line off “sludge carriers”, mostly made up of redundant tenders adjacent. Now, this may be a misplaced memory, but although most of these tenders were black, and perhaps the occasional green, I have a misplaced memory that one of them was garter blue. Am I delusional?