Water Shortages / Drought

[dakta]

we would do better if we didn't waste water and allow so much to leak away!

Indeed. I have a known leak on our property detected over 12 months ago, Yorkshire water initially claimed there wasn't one then after what seems like a chance finding after working on a neighbour's property changed their mind and started threatening us that it had to be fixed (chargeable). It's only a minor leak on the supply pipe.

We've now had nearing ten appointments, several missed, several sent with wrong crew, some sent to examine rather than repair, others claim to be the wrong team and some arriving not knowing what the job actually is or bringing wrong gear. Each time repair hadn't been carried out you have to rebook which can be 2 weeks to a month and after the sixth or seven visit they also damaged a nearby pipe.

Each attempted visit has logged a complaint and we're now Going through the ombudsman as we've had a hole in the garden for months over a few hundred pounds worth of work and the whole saga now exceeds a year.

How dare we use a hosepipe, my current joke at the moment is telling people there's no drought youl actually find the contents of Digley reservoir in my foundations...

 

[Magdalia]

Privatisation was supposed to result in more investment, but that's not what has happened. The water companies do the minimum that they can get away with to reduce leaks, and there has been almost no investment in new capacity. I think that there have been no new reservoirs since Carsington was opened in 1992. We have no equivalent of the National Grid for water, and discussions about moving water from the Severn basin to the Thames basin, or from the Trent basin to the Ouse basin have not progressed very far.

I have been banging on about water shortages for a while now, but nobody listens. Here in the East of England water supply is the biggest constraint on economic development, but nothing will happen until the taps run dry.

I don't normally drink bottled water, but I do have an emergency supply, just in case.

 

[Ted633]

I had a water meter fitted in Autumn 2019, but as people have said on here, readings aren't very frequent. I think is annual! Because of this, I was paying an 'estimated' rate over my first year which I think was £35 a month. I live on my own, so don't use that much. Imagine my surprise a year later when my statement comes through saying that for the next 12 months I'll only be paying £4 a month! (Due to being in credit). It now seems to have settled down and I pay just over 20 per month now.

 

[TheBigD]

Privatisation was supposed to result in more investment, but that's not what has happened. The water companies do the minimum that they can get away with to reduce leaks, and there has been almost no investment in new capacity. I think that there have been no new reservoirs since Carsington was opened in 1992. We have no equivalent of the National Grid for water, and discussions about moving water from the Severn basin to the Thames basin, or from the Trent basin to the Ouse basin have not progressed very far.

I have been banging on about water shortages for a while now, but nobody listens. Here in the East of England water supply is the biggest constraint on economic development, but nothing will happen until the taps run dry.

I don't normally drink bottled water, but I do have an emergency supply, just in case.

Water companies have proposed new reservoirs but local opposition has seen proposals go unfulfilled.
Unherd.com recently did an article about Lib Dem Layla Moran and her opposition to a new oxfordshire Thames Water reservoir.

 

[Magdalia]

Water companies have proposed new reservoirs but local opposition has seen proposals go unfulfilled.
Unherd.com recently did an article about Lib Dem Layla Moran and her opposition to a new oxfordshire Thames Water reservoir.

Thanks. I suspected that might be the case but didn't know any specific examples.

But it is fantasy to think that privatised companies will somehow be better than a publicly owned industry at overcoming NIMBY opposition.

 

[eMeS]

Thanks. I suspected that might be the case but didn't know any specific examples.

But it is fantasy to think that privatised companies will somehow be better than a publicly owned industry at overcoming NIMBY opposition.

From the period, I think the argument was that it was impossible to sue the water companies prior to privatisation because they were part of the "Crown Estate" or some such, and impossible to sue. I think the real problem has been the weakness of OFWAT policing and the lack of a "Golden Share" to prevent foreign ownership.

 

[JamesT]

Privatisation was supposed to result in more investment, but that's not what has happened. The water companies do the minimum that they can get away with to reduce leaks, and there has been almost no investment in new capacity. I think that there have been no new reservoirs since Carsington was opened in 1992. We have no equivalent of the National Grid for water, and discussions about moving water from the Severn basin to the Thames basin, or from the Trent basin to the Ouse basin have not progressed very far.

I have been banging on about water shortages for a while now, but nobody listens. Here in the East of England water supply is the biggest constraint on economic development, but nothing will happen until the taps run dry.

I don't normally drink bottled water, but I do have an emergency supply, just in case.

There has been more investment since privatisation. Before privatisation it was around £2bn/year, since then there has been £160bn invested i.e. £5bn/year. The quality of water has improved hugely in that time too, it used to be a common joke that all of Britain's beaches were filthy whereas now 2/3rds are graded as excellent.
As @TheBigD notes, water companies have tried to build more capacity and been rebuffed. The Thames Water plans for one near Abingdon date back over 15 years. Rejected in 2007 by the Environment Agency as there was "no need" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/6233287.stm . Rejected again in 2011 as "no immediate need" and told to consider a smaller one - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-12651131 . The local NIMBYs campaigning against the reservoir claiming there are many alternatives and it's not needed - https://www.abingdonreservoir.org.uk/

 

[eMeS]

... The Thames Water plans for one near Abingdon date back over 15 years. ...

Is one of the problems that water companies have to be strict about pollution (e.g. from petrol powered boats etc.) and thus reservoirs can't be used for waterskiing?

 

[JamesT]

Is one of the problems that water companies have to be strict about pollution (e.g. from petrol powered boats etc.) and thus reservoirs can't be used for waterskiing?

I wasn't aware there was anything preventing reservoirs being used for watersports, the filtering etc. is done downstream. A quick google finds instances such as http://covenhamwaterskiclub.co.uk/ of waterskiing happening on reservoirs.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are reservoirs used by powered boats widely used for domestic drinking water supply, or are they primarily just for compensation water / canal top up purposes?

 

[Magdalia]

There has been more investment since privatisation. Before privatisation it was around £2bn/year, since then there has been £160bn invested i.e. £5bn/year. The quality of water has improved hugely in that time too, it used to be a common joke that all of Britain's beaches were filthy whereas now 2/3rds are graded as excellent.
As @TheBigD notes, water companies have tried to build more capacity and been rebuffed. The Thames Water plans for one near Abingdon date back over 15 years. Rejected in 2007 by the Environment Agency as there was "no need" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/6233287.stm . Rejected again in 2011 as "no immediate need" and told to consider a smaller one - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-12651131 . The local NIMBYs campaigning against the reservoir claiming there are many alternatives and it's not needed - https://www.abingdonreservoir.org.uk/

Thanks again. I've already been reading about Abingdon this morning.

The beaches of East Sussex are filthy this morning and have been closed because of raw sewage discharges.

Sewage: Sussex beaches closed after wastewater discharge

Southern Water says it is investigating the cause of a power outage which caused the release.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[XAM2175]

When i had a meter installed in my old flat, the guy who installed it said I wouldn't need to send readings because it was read automatically by a device attached to the bin lorry. Did he make that up?

The bin lorry bit is probably tosh, but it's entirely possible that it's fitted with Automatic Meter Reading (AMR) equipment, which was the forerunner to the sort of smart kit used for electricity and gas today. Some AMR providers used radio-frequency connections (a bit like secret WiFi) that allowed them to drive around with a transceiver in the back of a van, while the other common set-up was to use a cellular data connection like GPRS. Newer ones working on that principle will of course have transitioned to 3G or 4G connections.

 

[bavvo]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the water companies, but one small factor in their defence, is a lot of the leaking pipes are at least in part caused by more and more heavier lorries on our roads, which slowly pound them every day. Each time the weight limit for lorries goes up the problem gets worse.

 

[TheBigD]

New reservoir planned for Cambridgeshire...

New £1bn Anglian Water reservoir planned for Cambridgeshire fens

The planned Cambridgeshire site will combine with a facility in Lincolnshire to provide enough water for 750,000 homes

www.cambridge-news.co.uk

 

[Cdd89]

I think there’s an argument that water metres should be mandatory everywhere.

By definition, the only people on fixed tariffs are either:

1. Uninformed, and would benefit from a water meter
2. Using absolutely huge amounts for it to be worth them being on that high rate

 

[DelayRepay]

I think there’s an argument that water metres should be mandatory everywhere.

By definition, the only people on fixed tariffs are either:

1. Uninformed, and would benefit from a water meter
2. Using absolutely huge amounts for it to be worth them being on that high rate

And 3. People whose property isn't suitable

But I agree with the principle. It's not fair that some people have to pay for what they use, whereas others can use as much as they like without a care in the world.

 

[eMeS]

...
But I agree with the principle. It's not fair that some people have to pay for what they use, whereas others can use as much as they like without a care in the world.

I'm in total agreement: I'm guessing that this goes back to when water was charged as a ratio of the old "Rateable Value" of properties, and charges were levied via the rates or similar.

But what do we do about ever increasing lorry axle loadings, and leaks caused by them? Before Brexit, maximum axle loadings were imposed, I believe, from Brussels. Have Continental towns suffered to the same extent as ours? Or, did two world wars fought over their territory ensure that their infra-structure is modern and more fit for purpose?

 

[sor]

I suggest the public stop voting for shysters.

In fairness, a majority of the public don't vote for the present lot. They only got 43% of the vote. If not for FPTP they'd have to be compromising with Labour or the Lib Dems on everything instead of deciding that their vision is the most true and pure & being able to implement it without any real scrutiny.

Prompted by this discussion, I logged into my water account. I've had meter readings, but the last one was in April 2021. The ones since then have been estimated but the estimation appears reasonable based on previous usage.

I don't remember the meter ever being read so it must be publicly accessible.

When i had a meter installed in my old flat, the guy who installed it said I wouldn't need to send readings because it was read automatically by a device attached to the bin lorry. Did he make that up?

Not idea if it's the bin lorry, that seems unlikely, but there's no reason why AW couldn't drive their own van around to collect readings. Certainly someone does it here - I don't know where my meter is (well it's in the ground, but which one) and it's read prior to the annual bill being made up.

And 3. People whose property isn't suitable

But I agree with the principle. It's not fair that some people have to pay for what they use, whereas others can use as much as they like without a care in the world.

If you're in an unmetered property you're probably paying a lot more for that privilege though - and if there's a hosepipe ban it doesn't matter anyway

 

[DelayRepay]

Not idea if it's the bin lorry, that seems unlikely, but there's no reason why AW couldn't drive their own van around to collect readings. Certainly someone does it here - I don't know where my meter is (well it's in the ground, but which one) and it's read prior to the annual bill being made up.

So out of curiosity I started typing 'Do bin lorries' into Google and one of the suggested searches was 'Do bin lorries read water meters'. So clearly I'm not the first to ask this.

And it turns out they do:

https://www.south-staffs-water.co.uk/news/has-your-water-meter-bin-read

People in five Staffordshire villages are having their water meters read when they have their bins emptied, in a unique partnership between South Staffs Water and Lichfield District Council.

The water meters are read using wireless technology, with readings being taken as the lorry passes each home every fortnight.

The new technology is being trialled in five villages: Clifton Campville, Edingale, Haunton, Elford and Harlaston. The meter readings mean that leaks can be identified quickly, while also reducing the chance of customers receiving estimated bills.

Not my water supplier, but there were a few similar articles mentioning other suppliers.

 

[Gloster]

I think that Southern Water has passed the work on to one of the data service companies. At one time I think it was Morrison’s (nothing to do with the supermarket, I think), but I am not sure if it is still them. You can usually tell when they have been as plenty of the covers aren’t properly replaced: the rubber seals are often sticking out.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

ut it is fantasy to think that privatised companies will somehow be better than a publicly owned industry at overcoming NIMBY opposition.

Yes that is true, privatised companies are unlikely to be more successful than publicly owned ones at overcoming NIMBY opposition.

But the flip side of that is that if the privatised companies have tried to build new reservoirs and been prevented from doing so by local opposition, then it's not really fair to blame the privatised companies for not building more reservoirs!

 

[brad465]

Even Camilla Cavendish, who previously worked with David Cameron when PM, has come out this week and called privatising water companies a mistake. The privatisation model only really works when there is genuine competition, not a geographical monopoly like we have at the moment.

 

[cornishjohn]

... The Thames Water plans for one near Abingdon date back over 15 years.

Ermm, just like to say I saw plans for a new reservoir at Abingdon while at a village fete in the area in 1987! This has been well and truly nimbyd.

 

[DelW]

But what do we do about ever increasing lorry axle loadings, and leaks caused by them? Before Brexit, maximum axle loadings were imposed, I believe, from Brussels. Have Continental towns suffered to the same extent as ours? Or, did two world wars fought over their territory ensure that their infra-structure is modern and more fit for purpose?

I posted this link earlier which shows European comparisons from 2017:

Reality Check: Have water companies cut leaks by a third?

Consumers are being asked not to waste water, but how much do water companies waste through leakage?

www.bbc.co.uk

The table part way down shows that UK at 23% is slightly worse than European median, while England and Wales alone at 20% is just about on the median. That also suggests that the non-privatised suppliers in Scotland and NI are worse than England and Wales.

I think that Southern Water has passed the work on to one of the data service companies. At one time I think it was Morrison’s (nothing to do with the supermarket, I think), but I am not sure if it is still them. You can usually tell when they have been as plenty of the covers aren’t properly replaced: the rubber seals are often sticking out.

Morrison Data Services - I think they were an offshoot of Morrison Construction, but if so there doesn't appear to be any connection now.

 

[Sm5]

My father steadfastly refused a water meter for years, he was paying around £50 a month.
When he passed, I learned this and discussed with my mother.
In London we used to pay around £37 a month, for a full family, inc kids who use water like ..well water…

We encouraged her to get a water meter and now shes on around £15.

 

[TPO]

I was wondering about the following, in view of the recent extreme hot weather and now possible water shortages / drought etc.

Apparently, there is a spring that discharges loads of fresh water into the Severn Railway Tunnel, that is then just pumped out into the River. It is a shame that is can not be channelled into pipelines around that area and onwards to various storage reservoirs which could supply places like Bristol, Cardiff and even a bit further afield, such as Cheltenham, Gloucester and Birmingham etc.

That water has been used in the past, indeed I think that there were some factories in Sudbrook (near the west end of the tunnel) which were located there specifically to take advantage of the water supply.

However I don't know whether any use is made of the water now.

P.S. No need for a Minister of Drought, just schedule more Test Matches in south east England. No play at Lords from 2:15 because of torrential rain - in fact play now abandoned for the day at 4:30.
(I know we need sustained rain for a period to actually alleviate the drought).

Water from the Great Spring was and maybe still is used by the Cattybrook Brick Co (now part of Ibstock). I understand it also supplied a paper works too.

Whilst it's true that the water pumped from the Great Spring in the Severn Tunnel was used to supply houses and businesses in Sudbrook, I believe that this is no longer the case.

In around 2010/11ish (as I recall) Network Rail paid for those properties to be connected to the mains, because NR was being charged for an abstraction licence if they supplied the pumped out water to users, but not if they put the water into the river. The cost of the abstraction licence was apparently so high (and perhaps also conditions of being a water supplier so onerous) that it made economic sense to pay to connect users of Great Spring water to the mains.


TPO

 

[Ashley Hill]

Whilst it's true that the water pumped from the Great Spring in the Severn Tunnel was used to supply houses and businesses in Sudbrook, I believe that this is no longer the case.

In around 2010/11ish (as I recall) Network Rail paid for those properties to be connected to the mains, because NR was being charged for an abstraction licence if they supplied the pumped out water to users, but not if they put the water into the river. The cost of the abstraction licence was apparently so high (and perhaps also conditions of being a water supplier so onerous) that it made economic sense to pay to connect users of Great Spring water to the mains.


TPO

What a bizarre world we live in.

 

[Magdalia]

New reservoir planned for Cambridgeshire...

More details announced today. It was lead story on Look East this evening.

Cambridgeshire: Anglian Water company announces plans for new reservoir

Anglian Water says the site in the Fens would supply about 250,000 homes.

www.bbc.co.uk

A proposed location for a new reservoir in the Cambridgeshire Fens has been announced.
Anglian Water said the facility, situated east of the A141 between Chatteris and Doddington, would supply water for about 250,000 homes.
A spokesman said it had found "the best-performing location" after a "thorough" selection process.

 

[philjo]

I think there’s an argument that water metres should be mandatory everywhere.

By definition, the only people on fixed tariffs are either:

1. Uninformed, and would benefit from a water meter
2. Using absolutely huge amounts for it to be worth them being on that high rate

Our semi-detached house cannot be fitted with a water meter. There is a shared mains supply with next door. The supply goes under next door’s kitchen then goes into our kitchen. The stop valve in the street shuts off both houses. So a meter installed at that position would be showing the combined usage of both houses.

The water company investigated a few years ago. It concluded it would cost them too much to put a separate supply to our house as they would have to dig up the road to get to the water main then feed the new supply under our drive. So both houses cannot use a meter.

 

[eMeS]

More details announced today. It was lead story on Look East this evening.

Cambridgeshire: Anglian Water company announces plans for new reservoir

Anglian Water says the site in the Fens would supply about 250,000 homes.

www.bbc.co.uk

Considering that "experts" have been saying that East Anglia has less rain than the Sahara for many years, I'm surprised the announcement has taken so long. I wonder what they will do with the earth removed? How about making a hill in East Anglia!