Was British Rail that bad?

[Lawman]

Folks,
Looking for your opinions on British Rail services before the Virgin,GNER,National Express days etc.I keep hearing nightmare stories re services and general poor state of rolling stock Was it THAT bad?:roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... and general poor state of rolling stoke.Was it THAT bad?:roll:

Stoke is quite bad

 

[Lawman]

Stoke is quite bad

speeelin wass niver ma srong point

 

[Essexman]

It was getting better and just prior to privitisation was not nearly as bad as the general public (and media) like to think.

 

[Oswyntail]

Much in the way of improvement had been put in place - Sprinters, Pacers(!), Electrification, Thameslink, Networkers - and profitability was rising. There were still poor spots, with much antique stock still being used. But nowhere near as bad as used to justify privatisation or excuse its performance

 

[NSEFAN]

A lack of money never did BR any favours. It was a case of "Do it cheaply or not at all", which would explain the fragile ECML wiring and stock being introduced in small batches. The current system isn't perfect (it costs far too much, and is micro managed by the government in a petty fasion), but at least the TOCs have some incentive to run a decent service.

 

[Oswyntail]

A lack of money never did BR any favours. It was a case of "Do it cheaply or not at all", which would explain the fragile ECML wiring and stock being introduced in small batches. The current system isn't perfect (it costs far too much, and is micro managed by the government in a petty fasion), but at least the TOCs have some incentive to run a decent service.

But at least they did things. I wouldn't call the restocking of much of NSE, or RR small batches! And could you explain what you mean by a "decent service" that BR didn't run but TOCs do?

 

[nedchester]

Simple answer is NO.

Certainly compared to the money pit of today's set up. And there was me thinking that privatising the railway was set up to save money........

 

[northwichcat]

When comparing punctuality figures between BR and current operators it's important to remember that BR didn't add 5-10 minutes of unnecessary recovery time between the final two stations on a service.

 

[telstarbox]

Currently we have a system where there are bargain advance fares available but very expensive walk-up fares (thinking of Manchester - London in particular). How does this compare to BR fares?

 

[Zoe]

The hon. Gentleman is right that British Rail operated the railway on a shoestring at relatively low cost, but in doing so it built up a tremendous legacy of under-investment and disregard for safety risk, the terrible consequences of which we saw only too clearly in the late 1990s and the early years of this century.

That's the first time I've heard anyone blame BR for the rail disasters of that period but they are the words of Philip Hammond.

 

[Essexman]

British Rail ran hundreds of restaurant cars open to first and standard class.
Now we have four open to all and six in total.

 

[NSEFAN]

In response to Oswyntail, I'm not denying that things were done under BR, but if there had not been persistent cash problems, then many projects would have been done properly and we wouldn't be paying more for it today.

When refering to the service, I meant that private companies make their money by effectively doing a good job. By improving the service, they can attract new customers and make more money. That kind of incentive doesn't exist under a totally public-owned system because the funding will be covered anyway. Certainly this seems how BR was in the 1970s and 80s, especially when you compare timetables with today. Sectorisation did bring a lot of good changes (new trains, improved reliability, etc), but by that time the negative image of BR was already well established in the public's mind.

 

[yorksrob]

That's the first time I've heard anyone blame BR for the rail disasters of that period but they are the words of Philip Hammond.

Hammond's lot were holding the purse strings so I'd say he doesn't have much room to complain.

 

[Wyvern]

That's the first time I've heard anyone blame BR for the rail disasters of that period but they are the words of Philip Hammond.

It just shows how much Hammond knows about transport. He's just told what to say and out it comes.

In regard to another point British Rail saw itself as being in competition with other transport, though mainly air transport, and set out to do so.

 

[WatcherZero]

Currently we have a system where there are bargain advance fares available but very expensive walk-up fares (thinking of Manchester - London in particular). How does this compare to BR fares?

RAIL did an article on it for their 30th anniversary, 30 year price comparison. As I remember in general they had gone up above inflation but not hugely (except for intercity which had gone up massivley over last 10 years) and some fares had barely changed however advance fares were something like 30% cheaper today.

 

[Welshman]

Much in the way of improvement had been put in place - Sprinters, Pacers(!), Electrification, Thameslink, Networkers - and profitability was rising. There were still poor spots, with much antique stock still being used. But nowhere near as bad as used to justify privatisation or excuse its performance

I was reading somewhere that not only was the "Inter-City" brand name copied by other systems in Europe, but also it was quite profittable here when it was disbanded.

 

[Jeff Worsnop]

When comparing punctuality figures between BR and current operators it's important to remember that BR didn't add 5-10 minutes of unnecessary recovery time between the final two stations on a service.

O yes they did. 20 minutes from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central on the train from London as an example.

 

[Greenback]

IC did make a profit before privatisation. As to the fares rise in 30 years, the problem with generalising about fares is that it covers up a lot of the problem.

An Advance fare may well be cheaper now in real terms than a Monthly Return was in 1979, but an Anytime Return may be very, very much more expensive - far in excess of the rate of inflation over the last 32 years!

The system is far more complicated now, it is very difficult to compare fares in any meaningful way. I don't recall any restrictions from South Wales in the early 1980's before the introduction fo Saver tickets. For my first long distance solo journey in 1983 there was a Weekend Return, a Monthly Return, or an Ordinary Return (vlaid 3 months).

 

[Masbroughlad]

IMO There is no question, BR was much better. If we'd kept it and ploughed in the same investment (not to fat cat profits), we'd have one of the best railways in the world (still)-not a fragmented, profit-driven railway.

 

[ungreat]

IMO There is no question, BR was much better. If we'd kept it and ploughed in the same investment (not to fat cat profits), we'd have one of the best railways in the world (still)-not a fragmented, profit-driven railway.

Absoluely correct.
You can't run a public service as a profit making company.It doesn't work,and never will.Too much fragmentation and far too much shareholder focus has ruined the railways

 

[RichmondCommu]

Both my dad and grandfather were both career railway men so i definitely have an allegiance to British Rail (and the LMS). However, customer service has become a damn sight better following privatisation. In many instances the same staff are still there but the focus on the customer has changed for the better.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

British Railways offered much in the way of excursion train facilities that were competitively priced for families on limited means to use, especially to the seaside resorts. No-one commented much about the quality of the coaches that were used, as they were seen as acceptable in those days.

In the Manchester area, they set up and ran The Manchester Rail Travel Club with a co-ordinated membership system, which had a properly set up and pre-advertised list of forward excursions from different areas of Greater Manchester and each destination offered had a list of stations (and times) as departure points, in their monthly mailings and newsletter. They gave free key rings with the club name included to all members and a special membership card that could have vailidated year stamps entered inside.

My family used these special trains to go to places such as Paignton, Southend, Bournemouth and Folkestone, which were very competitively priced with very special cheap prices for children. They even offered MYSTERY TOURS and whilst our family only used one of these, we would never have been to LARGS otherwise!!!

 

[NightatLaira]

Privatisation sovled one problem but created another. BR focussed too much on avoiding losses, its replacement focussed too much on achieving profits. What we need IMO is longer contracts, the SRA focussing on overall commitment to quality rather than micro-managing, probably a return to the big 4, and XC services co-run between these four companies.

 

[Greenback]

Both my dad and grandfather were both career railway men so i definitely have an allegiance to British Rail (and the LMS). However, customer service has become a damn sight better following privatisation. In many instances the same staff are still there but the focus on the customer has changed for the better.

It may have become better under BR, given the chance. Customer service has improved in all aspects of life in the last twenty years. Hotels, restaurants and shops have all upped their game in this area as well.

 

[OuterDistant]

Probably a slightly nostalgic view, but under BR our local line had staffed stations and 2/3 car Sprinters. Nowadays we've got one dogbox per hour serving unstaffed halts, and they still can't figure out why everyone wants to drive instead.

 

[northwichcat]

O yes they did. 20 minutes from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central on the train from London as an example.

Well it wasn't as bad on local services as First North Western added 5 minutes between the last two stations on most of their routes mid-way through their franchise and Northern have added a couple of extra minutes on some lines since then.

 

[Redviper]

I think that its a shame, that something that was, and could have been - the envy of the world was starved of cash, and then disposed of by the conservative goverment and is now in a effect a wasteful resource in itself run for the pleasure of the greedy foriegn fat cats that profit in it.

 

[LE Greys]

Absoluely correct.
You can't run a public service as a profit making company.It doesn't work,and never will.Too much fragmentation and far too much shareholder focus has ruined the railways

You can. The GWR managed it for 113 years. Thing was, the GWR was a completely self-sufficient company that not only built its own stock, it even had its own foundry at Swindon, so iron ore, copper ore and coal came in one end, complete locomotives came out the other.

Sir Felix Pole would turn in his grave if he knew what FGW was like today.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think it needs to be remembered that we live in a different world now what we did back in BR days. As has already been said, attitudes to customer service have changed dramatically across the board. The same can be said for safety, comfort, speed, convienience, price etc. Take safety, the big safety improvement since privatisation was TPWS. TPWS was a government requirement due to a number of accidents caused by SPADs, and would have been fitted just the same by BR, infact BR was developing ATP at the time of privatisation. Arguably the only issue in that sence had privatisation not occured would have been that instead we might have had more limited ATP coverage (mainlines) rarther than widespread TPWS, the latter being safer due to the circumstances of most SPADs (most occur at low speeds where TPWS is totally effective, yet where ATP might not be fitted). Perhaps though we'd have gone the full way and had ATP on the mainlines and TPWS everywhere else. Another "safety" (plus "comfort", "quality" etc) think was the mass replacement of Mk1 stock with new trains. Again the TOCs did not choose to do this (any more than BR would have carried on eating away at the older SR slammers with more Networkers) but the government used legislation to force it on them, and could have done the same with BR.