Wales RUS consultation published

[trainophile]

I'm on a packed 2-car ATW 175 now, just approaching Crewe (ex-MAN) I hope a few get off or the getter-ons will be standing!

 

[Llanigraham]

you have more of a problem on the North Wales coast so why only just as far of Shrewsbury?

Because he thinks the (railway) world is centered on Shrewsbury, to the detriment of all other places!
From my experience of signalling on the Marches line there are plenty of 3 car units used.

 

[trainophile]

They don't seem to consider two cars instead of three as worthy of including in their Train Formation Updates on their journey checker. This presumably is to infer that two coaches are perfectly adequate on the services concerned.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yesterdays 1530ish was a three car Cardiff to Holyhead,I met it in Wrexham at 1800,well loaded around 70/80 got off,similar large number waiting to board

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If the standard pattern TT did not extend from Manchester - West Wales (and I am Welsh so no flaming please) - there might be a better chance of recycling the 3 car 175 sets to the busiest sections (which are - really Carmarthen /Swansea - Manchester) - not forgetting the North Wales coast. I am sure ATW do the very best on juggling train formations with what they have - and what the timetable structure is.

lronically - the heaviest trafficked sections are those to / from England - emulating Scotrail would not be sensible in my view.

 

[PHILIPE]

They don't seem to consider two cars instead of three as worthy of including in their Train Formation Updates on their journey checker. This presumably is to infer that two coaches are perfectly adequate on the services concerned.

Journey Check often reports 2 vice 3 cars when appropriate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the standard pattern TT did not extend from Manchester - West Wales (and I am Welsh so no flaming please) - there might be a better chance of recycling the 3 car 175 sets to the busiest sections (which are - really Carmarthen /Swansea - Manchester) - not forgetting the North Wales coast. I am sure ATW do the very best on juggling train formations with what they have - and what the timetable structure is.

lronically - the heaviest trafficked sections are those to / from England - emulating Scotrail would not be sensible in my view.

ATW have to try and juggle where to place the 2 car and 3 car, not an easy job. There is a standard pattern, i.e. alternate Manchesters going to Milford Haven. Another problem is the fact they are fairly long distance trains so might be busy (peaktime) at the Manchester and quiet at the West Wales end being in a different time zone. The middle bit does seem to be the busiest

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Journey Check often reports 2 vice 3 cars when appropriate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW have to try and juggle where to place the 2 car and 3 car, not an easy job. There is a standard pattern, i.e. alternate Manchesters going to Milford Haven. Another problem is the fact they are fairly long distance trains so might be busy (peaktime) at the Manchester and quiet at the West Wales end being in a different time zone. The middle bit does seem to be the busiest

Exactly - you deal the pack to the best of the ability. (bit like Cross Country where the extremities are often thin / lightly loaded and the end to end journey time can be more than 8 hours in reality. I bow my ex gold braided cap to you.

 

[Olaf]

Journey Check often reports 2 vice 3 cars when appropriate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW have to try and juggle where to place the 2 car and 3 car, not an easy job. There is a standard pattern, i.e. alternate Manchesters going to Milford Haven. Another problem is the fact they are fairly long distance trains so might be busy (peaktime) at the Manchester and quiet at the West Wales end being in a different time zone. The middle bit does seem to be the busiest

Would the coupling of two units at the busy end of the route with a decoupling at say Cardiff address this kind of issue? The set removed from the service could then be coupled to a return service or continue to another destination. A lot of practical considerations around availability, paths, etc, etc, but this type of approach does not seem to get considered as a solution. Is there an intrinisic problem with this type of approach that hinders it's wider adoption?

 

[merlodlliw]

Would the coupling of two units at the busy end of the route with a decoupling at say Cardiff address this kind of issue? The set removed from the service could then be coupled to a return service or continue to another destination. A lot of practical considerations around availability, paths, etc, etc, but this type of approach does not seem to get considered as a solution. Is there an intrinisic problem with this type of approach that hinders it's wider adoption?

Two guards required?

 

[PHILIPE]

Would the coupling of two units at the busy end of the route with a decoupling at say Cardiff address this kind of issue? The set removed from the service could then be coupled to a return service or continue to another destination. A lot of practical considerations around availability, paths, etc, etc, but this type of approach does not seem to get considered as a solution. Is there an intrinisic problem with this type of approach that hinders it's wider adoption?

Where would the units come from ? Also 175s can only couple to one another.

 

[Greenback]

There aren't enough units.

As much as I love the 175's, they do have a major drawback in being coupled together, and that's the lack of corridor connections.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There aren't enough units.

As much as I love the 175's, they do have a major drawback in being coupled together, and that's the lack of corridor connections.

For all the spin that the growth on the railways is down to the wonders of franchising when you think about the rolling stock that was privately ordered and specified ie. 170,175 & Voyagers they hardly appear to have been designed with expanding passenger numbers in mind do they?

 

[8H]

Yes you are quite right, the wonders of franchising are largely imaginary and certainly subordinate to the more substantive changes in the economy overall and the increase in road congestion nationwide, and in the South East especially. BR would have done just as well, and at less cost to the nation, and probably got new units out of the works a bit quicker.

 

[bramling]

For all the spin that the growth on the railways is down to the wonders of franchising when you think about the rolling stock that was privately ordered and specified ie. 170,175 & Voyagers they hardly appear to have been designed with expanding passenger numbers in mind do they?

The above is so true. For almost every fleet, especially diesels, not enough built and formations too short.

Perhaps with hindsight benefit, but today it seems unbelievable that the likes of MML or Southern ever specified 2-car trains.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not just quantity off but ability to join up with other stock seems to have not been a consideration.

 

[PHILIPE]

Not just quantity off but ability to join up with other stock seems to have not been a consideration.

Everybody started doing their own things post privatisation

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

For all the spin that the growth on the railways is down to the wonders of franchising when you think about the rolling stock that was privately ordered and specified ie. 170,175 & Voyagers they hardly appear to have been designed with expanding passenger numbers in mind do they?

I'm not sure that I've read that in any of the Privatisation v Nationalisation threads, but it is a really valid point 9to me, anyway!)

 

[fflint]

Hi, I don't know if it's been done before but wouldn't it be cheaper to build unpowered carriages and tow them with a locomotive, which could, when not pulling the carriages could be used to pull goods wagons. You could then add or subtract passenger carriages depending on the expected level of passengers

Fflint

 

[CapitalStar378]

Why is there not a plan to increase mainline speeds in south Wales? The maximum speed is 95mph between Cardiff and the Severn Tunnel. Electrification will only bring journey times near to those of the late 70's, there must be room for further improvement.

 

[PHILIPE]

Hi, I don't know if it's been done before but wouldn't it be cheaper to build unpowered carriages and tow them with a locomotive, which could, when not pulling the carriages could be used to pull goods wagons. You could then add or subtract passenger carriages depending on the expected level of passengers

Fflint

Completely impracticable. For one thing who would own/lease the locos. There are Passenger TOCs and there are several Freight companies.

 

[Llanigraham]

Completely impracticable. For one thing who would own/lease the locos. There are Passenger TOCs and there are several Freight companies.

I think (hope) Fflint was being ironic!

 

[HowardGWR]

For all the spin that the growth on the railways is down to the wonders of franchising when you think about the rolling stock that was privately ordered and specified ie. 170,175 & Voyagers they hardly appear to have been designed with expanding passenger numbers in mind do they?

Are these trains easily expanded with a coach in the middle? Does it need to be powered, or can the existing engines do the job?

 

[Envoy]

It seems to me that the capacity crises that the railways are in today is because the electrification programme that is currently taking place, should have been done at least 10 years ago.

It is quite clear that the 2 & 3 car Coradias (175's) on the Marches cannot cope with demand. According to the Network Rail report, they would like to see the introduction of the European Signalling System on the Marches to increase the number of trains as well as lengthening passing loops for holding freights along with the introduction of a new loop in the southern part of the route - northbound. That would hopefully mean that say 3 car Coradias could form limited stop services with other trains being stoppers. Alternatively, you keep the same number of services but have longer trains - but that can only happen when diesels on other routes have been replaced by electrics.

PS. 'X-Ray' on BBC 1 Wales on Friday 20 March at 19.30 is going to have a feature about the service provided by ATW in the south Wales valleys. (This programme is available nationwide via Sky & Freesat).

 

[swcovas]

PS. 'X-Ray' on BBC 1 Wales on Monday 16 March is going to have a feature about the service provided by ATW in the south Wales valleys. (This programme is available nationwide via Sky & Freesat).

I generally quite like this programme but I fear for what sort of bias it's going to throw up on Monday!

By the way is it just me or does anyone else think that the 111 pages of the RUS could hav been written in about 40?!!??

 

[Gareth Marston]

I generally quite like this programme but I fear for what sort of bias it's going to throw up on Monday!

By the way is it just me or does anyone else think that the 111 pages of the RUS could hav been written in about 40?!!??

Less than 40 surely, it's though there frightened not to make it a big document, which when you look at it actually says it is!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I did a chunk of stuff for the first RUS - but have not been able (time !) to read the new one.

The issue on 2 / 3 car capacity is an UK thing - remember - the ethos of privatisation was to deal with what was perceived as a declining railway - not the booming one we have now in terms of passenger use.

Can someone out a link over about this Monday "exposure" on the Valleys line - for what it is worth - they (ATW) seem to run a fair ship .....considering the constraints and the 14x fleet....

 

[craigybagel]

Not just quantity but ability to join up with other stock seems to have not been a consideration.

To be fair, the 170s were made compatible, so it shows that it could have been done. That the 175s
were designed at a similar time yet made non compatible (different couplers, and also controls) does seem almost perverse.

Two guards required?

Not actually a rule. 175s do run in multiple on occasion, usually with the rear set locked out, but not always. Normally there is still only one guard on.
Multiple working for non corridor stock is normal on the valleys, with only one guard.

One issue though on the marches line is platform length. Multiple 175s means at least 4 cars, and that means no more Wem, or on the up at Whitchurch. Go beyond 4 and you also have problems at Leominster, and on the down at Abergavenny. 175s don't have SDO, they only have the ability to lock.out the rear unit.

 

[merlodlliw]

To be fair, the 170s were made compatible, so it shows that it could have been done. That the 175s
were designed at a similar time yet made non compatible (different couplers, and also controls) does seem almost perverse.


Not actually a rule. 175s do run in multiple on occasion, usually with the rear set locked out, but not always. Normally there is still only one guard on.
Multiple working for non corridor stock is normal on the valleys, with only one guard.

One issue though on the marches line is platform length. Multiple 175s means at least 4 cars, and that means no more Wem, or on the up at Whitchurch. Go beyond 4 and you also have problems at Leominster, and on the down at Abergavenny. 175s don't have SDO, they only have the ability to lock.out the rear unit.

The 175s were designed for North Western Trains(part of the franchise requirment if I recall)) , with nothing then due to go further south than Wrexham/Bidston under that franchise.
I agree no thought was given to Wales & Borders(dogs dinner) which Arriva took over. Has for the RUS document, finished off by consultants,the more pages, the more money written in , so it would seem.

It may be that The Wems and and others may just be served by locals if the platforms are not long enough,change at Salop hub,who knows.

 

[Envoy]

I did a chunk of stuff for the first RUS - but have not been able (time !) to read the new one.

Can someone out a link over about this Monday "exposure" on the Valleys line - for what it is worth - they (ATW) seem to run a fair ship .....considering the constraints and the 14x fleet....

The X-Ray programme (featuring ATW) has been moved from its normal Monday slot next week - due to soccer. It will be broadcast on Friday 20 March 2015 at 7.30pm. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05n7skj

Unfortunately, the general public think that it is all the fault of the TOC's when they have old overcrowded trains. Presumably, should the Welsh Government set up an 'arms length' company to take over the running of what is not the ATW franchise, electrification will then take place and the general public will think "what a difference it has made getting rid of ATW & having the Welsh Government ultimately in control". On the other hand, if it does happen, it could be a total disaster - especially if the UK government refuses permission for 'Welsh' trains to operate on 'English' tracks. Perhaps we will all have to change at the border crossings such as Chepstow? (Note that over 60's cannot even use their bus passes in each others* 'countries' - goodness knows why they can't have a reciprocal arrangement)? * Apart from limited cross border trips.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

he 175s were designed for North Western Trains(part of the franchise requirment if I recall)) , with nothing then due to go further south than Wrexham/Bidston under that franchise.

Little known fact - FNW had "rights" to run 4 tpd per day from Holyhead to Euston - never materialised of course - and the "175" sets were originally intended to be 125 mph to cope with this and other aspirations. Their ill fated attempts to deliver a London service from Blackpool / Rochdale and Manchester Airport with 158 / 322 sets were a sort of compromise on this commitment.