Wales RUS consultation published

[merlodlliw]

he 175s were designed for North Western Trains(part of the franchise requirment if I recall)) , with nothing then due to go further south than Wrexham/Bidston under that franchise.

Little known fact - FNW had "rights" to run 4 tpd per day from Holyhead to Euston - never materialised of course - and the "175" sets were originally intended to be 125 mph to cope with this and other aspirations. Their ill fated attempts to deliver a London service from Blackpool / Rochdale and Manchester Airport with 158 / 322 sets were a sort of compromise on this commitment.

I used the FNW service,boarding at Sandbach(Man Airport) to Euston,VT imposed the non compi forbidding the use of Crewe and other stations, the return fare was £25,a big saving on VT.
Then signs appeared in Euston by VT, Manchester return for £10, that effectively killed off North Westerns London runs before the North Wales/Euston service started, VT also started Manchester/Euston for the £10 spoiler.
The electric trains I caught at Sandbach still had Stanstead Express logos on them, I also recall the 158 sets via Man Vic to London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The X-Ray programme (featuring ATW) has been moved from its normal Monday slot next week - due to soccer. It will be broadcast on Friday 20 March 2015 at 7.30pm. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05n7skj

Unfortunately, the general public think that it is all the fault of the TOC's when they have old overcrowded trains. Presumably, should the Welsh Government set up an 'arms length' company to take over the running of what is not the ATW franchise, electrification will then take place and the general public will think "what a difference it has made getting rid of ATW & having the Welsh Government ultimately in control". On the other hand, if it does happen, it could be a total disaster - especially if the UK government refuses permission for 'Welsh' trains to operate on 'English' tracks. Perhaps we will all have to change at the border crossings such as Chepstow? (Note that over 60's cannot even use their bus passes in each others* 'countries' - goodness knows why they can't have a reciprocal arrangement)? * Apart from limited cross border trips.

In Europe I recall services between Countries, you stayed in the same carriage,but the loco changed at the Border, I hope we dont get to the
same situation, imagine Chester Wrexham area one area,then Gobowen to Salop another area, etc etc

 

[Gareth Marston]

I used the FNW service,boarding at Sandbach(Man Airport) to Euston,VT imposed the non compi forbidding the use of Crewe and other stations, the return fare was £25,a big saving on VT.
Then signs appeared in Euston by VT, Manchester return for £10, that effectively killed off North Westerns London runs before the North Wales/Euston service started, VT also started Manchester/Euston for the £10 spoiler.
The electric trains I caught at Sandbach still had Stanstead Express logos on them, I also recall the 158 sets via Man Vic to London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In Europe I recall services between Countries, you stayed in the same carriage,but the loco changed at the Border, I hope we dont get to the
same situation, imagine Chester Wrexham area one area,then Gobowen to Salop another area, etc etc

It's a brain dead idea as far as passengers are concerned in Mid and North Wales, services have to be through to NW England Cities and West Midlands that is the natural direction of travel. Let's face it the practicalities of terminating at the 1st English station would be a nightmare. How much extra platform capacity would you have to build at Chester and Shrewsbury? The facilities at Shrewsbury simply couldn't cope with extra numbers changing from the Cambrian alone. I suppose the Heart of Wales would have to start at Knighton as the station is in Shropshire but the town in Powys!

 

[Envoy]

Another problem for cross border trains is which politicians do people take up issues with if things are not to their liking? A person living in say Hereford could complain to their MP about overcrowding on a service running to Manchester. The MP might then reply that the service on the Marches line is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. So, this bloke then complains to the Welsh Government (as they now call themselves) who then reply that he is an English 'subject' and therefore nothing to do with them!

 

[Llanigraham]

Another problem for cross border trains is which politicians do people take up issues with if things are not to their liking? A person living in say Hereford could complain to their MP about overcrowding on a service running to Manchester. The MP might then reply that the service on the Marches line is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. So, this bloke then complains to the Welsh Government (as they now call themselves) who then reply that he is an English 'subject' and therefore nothing to do with them!

So how do you suggest it should be dealt with?
And to be honest, that situation applies now.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Hi, I don't know if it's been done before but wouldn't it be cheaper to build unpowered carriages and tow them with a locomotive, which could, when not pulling the carriages could be used to pull goods wagons. You could then add or subtract passenger carriages depending on the expected level of passengers

Fflint

One of the best postings I've seen, really made me laugh! Too simple, tho'!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So how do you suggest it should be dealt with?
And to be honest, that situation applies now.

There's a difference between political representation and franchise management.
The WG Rail Office has made a decent fist of managing the current W&B franchise for all its users, and I wouldn't accuse it of Welsh bias.
But the contract was set up by the SRA and simply passed on to WG to manage, and it was essentially "border-blind".

The next franchise will be a different kettle of fish if it is specified and let by the WG with no political input from "England".
I think we are waiting to see what interest the WG takes in, say, services at Smethwick Galton Bridge or Runcorn East and how they will manage the political aspects of cross-border operation.
You only have to see the extent of political issues by looking at the way the Northern franchise is being specified and let.
There are all sorts of stakeholder bodies involved and consultations in progress.

I'm pretty sure the WG will not have carte blanche over all the current W&B network.
There will have to be democratic oversight from England over its lines, even if it is at the local authority level.
Shropshire is as dependent on the W&B franchise as Powys - probably more so.
The "not for profit" fantasy, if established in Wales, might not extend into England (depending on the next Westminster government).

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's a difference between political representation and franchise management.
The WG Rail Office has made a decent fist of managing the current W&B franchise for all its users, and I wouldn't accuse it of Welsh bias.
But the contract was set up by the SRA and simply passed on to WG to manage, and it was essentially "border-blind".

The next franchise will be a different kettle of fish if it is specified and let by the WG with no political input from "England".
I think we are waiting to see what interest the WG takes in, say, services at Smethwick Galton Bridge or Runcorn East and how they will manage the political aspects of cross-border operation.
You only have to see the extent of political issues by looking at the way the Northern franchise is being specified and let.
There are all sorts of stakeholder bodies involved and consultations in progress.

I'm pretty sure the WG will not have carte blanche over all the current W&B network.
There will have to be democratic oversight from England over its lines, even if it is at the local authority level.
Shropshire is as dependent on the W&B franchise as Powys - probably more so.
The "not for profit" fantasy, if established in Wales, might not extend into England (depending on the next Westminster government).

A not for profit franchise stopping at the border would be the worst thing possible for mid and north Wales as it would destroy and disrupt significant natural flows.

 

[merlodlliw]

A not for profit franchise stopping at the border would be the worst thing possible for mid and north Wales as it would destroy and disrupt significant natural flows.

And goodbye to Chester/Shrewsbury/Hereford hubs all currently under WG control, but managed by ATW for WG.
The line from Newport to the border is a fraction of the Hereford to Manchester run.
I see politics getting in the way of advancement,a sad fact.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

What on earth is all this scaremongering about cross-border services? There are already plenty of them not operated by ATW or the WG. Services to Holyhead and Paddington and Bristol and Portsmouth run daily and we have to accept what we are given, which made one particular service, from Cardiff to Maesteg, the most overcrowded in the UK. This was the result of First Great Western's decision to terminate a Swansea service at Cardiff without any consultation.
It was an isolated instance but hardly a reason to think that, somehow, train services will have an imaginary change of gauge at the border, whichever direction they happen to be travelling.
I trust that those who insist on playing politics, on here, have put their names forward to stand in the coming General Election and next year's Assembly Election.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What on earth is all this scaremongering about cross-border services? There are already plenty of them not operated by ATW or the WG. Services to Holyhead and Paddington and Bristol and Portsmouth run daily and we have to accept what we are given, which made one particular service, from Cardiff to Maesteg, the most overcrowded in the UK. This was the result of First Great Western's decision to terminate a Swansea service at Cardiff without any consultation.
It was an isolated instance but hardly a reason to think that, somehow, train services will have an imaginary change of gauge at the border, whichever direction they happen to be travelling.
I trust that those who insist on playing politics, on here, have put their names forward to stand in the coming General Election and next year's Assembly Election.

This has emanated from a Whitehall source in response to the Welsh Government proposal to run a not for profit franchise. i.e if you want not for profit then only west of offas dyke well Chester/Shrewsbury, south of Hereford.

 

[merlodlliw]

What on earth is all this scaremongering about cross-border services? There are already plenty of them not operated by ATW or the WG. Services to Holyhead and Paddington and Bristol and Portsmouth run daily and we have to accept what we are given, which made one particular service, from Cardiff to Maesteg, the most overcrowded in the UK. This was the result of First Great Western's decision to terminate a Swansea service at Cardiff without any consultation.
It was an isolated instance but hardly a reason to think that, somehow, train services will have an imaginary change of gauge at the border, whichever direction they happen to be travelling.
I trust that those who insist on playing politics, on here, have put their names forward to stand in the coming General Election and next year's Assembly Election.

No scaremongering fom me, just comment on a Westminster source,of course it wont happen in my opinion and wont effect VT or FGW etc, who are not controlled from Cardiff, but Wales & borders and ATW or whoever will be directly controlled by Cardiff Bay.A few years ago no one thought Chester or Runcorn East stations would be managed from Cardiff.

 

[40129]

How about this for a potential future service pattern / ownership scenario:

1) Transfer Manchester - Shrewsbury - South Wales services to Cross Country
2) Divert Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Shrewsbury - New Street services to Chester

This would result in almost all Shropshire stations being served by services specified by the DFT and not the Welsh Government

 

[Gareth Marston]

How about this for a potential future service pattern / ownership scenario:

1) Transfer Manchester - Shrewsbury - South Wales services to Cross Country
2) Divert Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Shrewsbury - New Street services to Chester

This would result in almost all Shropshire stations being served by services specified by the DFT and not the Welsh Government

Please give your quote on how your going to upgrade Shrewsbury to cope with an extra 400 to 500K interchange passengers a year.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Please give your quote on how your going to upgrade Shrewsbury to cope with an extra 400 to 500K interchange passengers a year.

Not sure what you mean...isn't 40129 suggesting that the part of the Marches services of the current Arriva franchise (Manchester-Cardiff) should just be transferred to Cross Country - they already run Nottingham - Cardiff. Wouldn't affect footfall in Shrewsbury, but would as 40129 suggests take responsibiliy away from Cardiff.

 

[The Planner]

Presumably no one wants to go to the West Mids or further afield then based on that.

 

[ReeceEmmitt]

Dwr Cymru manage just fine with their cross border issues.

Absolutely ludicrous to think that a future Trennau Cymru wouldn't involve cross border services.

 

[traveller1]

In my ideal world, the future Wales franchise would stay as it is, but include services from South Wales to Bristol. The fact that trains dont run from west of Cardiff to Bristol TM (Centre) or beyond any more as deterred us from making train journeys on this route since the demise of W&W.

 

[iantherev]

In my ideal world, the future Wales franchise would stay as it is, but include services from South Wales to Bristol. The fact that trains dont run from west of Cardiff to Bristol TM (Centre) or beyond any more as deterred us from making train journeys on this route since the demise of W&W.

Fine but what about passengers coming in the opposite direction given that most Trains now run beyond Bristol to Portsmouth Harbour or Taunton?

 

[40129]

Not sure what you mean...isn't 40129 suggesting that the part of the Marches services of the current Arriva franchise (Manchester-Cardiff) should just be transferred to Cross Country - they already run Nottingham - Cardiff. Wouldn't affect footfall in Shrewsbury, but would as 40129 suggests take responsibiliy away from Cardiff.

That is exactly what I meant

 

[traveller1]

Fine but what about passengers coming in the opposite direction given that most Trains now run beyond Bristol to Portsmouth Harbour or Taunton?

Thats why to me the Wales and West franchise should never have been demised. This represented realistic journey patterns as far as my own are concerned on direct trains. Ok, thats back 10+ years now, so to the current and future I guess we have to accept change.

Mind you, I dont see why some Taunton/Portsmouth services couldn't start back from as far west as Carmarthen or Swansea, as all within the franchise area for greater western? Remember the hourly services from Cardiff Airport - Barry - Cardiff - Portsmouth that were proposed back in 2006?

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is exactly what I meant

But you also suggested splitting the N Wales to Manchester services at Chester and the Holyhead to BHM INTL and Cambrian to BHM INTL services at Shrewsbury. Do you realise how many people travel through on them?

 

[Envoy]

In my ideal world, the future Wales franchise would stay as it is, but include services from South Wales to Bristol. The fact that trains dont run from west of Cardiff to Bristol TM (Centre) or beyond any more as deterred us from making train journeys on this route since the demise of W&W.

With electrification, I think we could well see a Swansea>Cardiff>Bristol (™)>Bath service. The Cardiff > Portsmouth diesel service will remain & the Cardiff > Taunton (& beyond in some cases) will cease due to no wires planned SW of Temple Meads - at least for the time being.

The Maesteg to Cheltenham diesel service will also cease due to no wires NE of Severn Tunnel Junction. Therefore, I reckon it is highly likely that we might see a half hourly Maesteg > Cardiff > Ebbw Vale all stops electric service in order to derive full benefit from main line electrification.

We might even see an electric service from Swansea > Cardiff calling at all stops but going via Llantwit Major & Rhoose. Thus, we would have a direct link between Swansea & Barry. This could replace Cardiff > Swansea stoppers with passengers being able to switch at Bridgend for fast service to/from Cardiff for intermediate stops such as Baglan & Llansamlet.

 

[merlodlliw]

Dwr Cymru manage just fine with their cross border issues.

Absolutely ludicrous to think that a future Trennau Cymru wouldn't involve cross border services.

Welsh Water is a utility,in my opinion it can not be compared to a transport undertaking.

 

[eps200]

I note in todays local daily, The Daily Post, a Deeside business leader is not so sure about Network Rails RUS plans for North East Wales, its rather long so heres the link

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/deeside-business-chief-sceptical-over-8780938

It seems the idea of Electrics between Wrexham and Bidston is now on the back burner.

Viva rail have bought the D78s and are converting them to diesel. Wonder if a few could be made bi modal.

 

[Class 170101]

The Maesteg to Cheltenham diesel service will also cease due to no wires NE of Severn Tunnel Junction. Therefore, I reckon it is highly likely that we might see a half hourly Maesteg > Cardiff > Ebbw Vale all stops electric service in order to derive full benefit from main line electrification.

The Cheltenham to Cardiff section could be covered by extending either the Leicester to New Street or the Nottingham to New Street service though to Cheltenham thence to Cardiff as per current ATW service.

In any event if Bristol to Derby via New Street gets wired I can't see it being too expensive to wire Gloucester (East) to Severn Tunnel Jn as a fill in.

 

[Envoy]

The Cheltenham to Cardiff section could be covered by extending either the Leicester to New Street or the Nottingham to New Street service though to Cheltenham thence to Cardiff as per current ATW service.

In any event if Bristol to Derby via New Street gets wired I can't see it being too expensive to wire Gloucester (East) to Severn Tunnel Jn as a fill in.

Clearly, a stopping service is needed between Cardiff & Cheltenham - as provided now by ATW. I think that it is more likely that this is extended to Worcester or even Kidderminster - which has some notable tourist attractions = Severn Valley Railway & West Midlands Safari Park. By doing so, Kidderminster, & Droitwich would gain a direct link with Cheltenham & therefore main line services to/from the south west. Cardiff would also benefit from such a direct link with Worcester, Droitwich & Kidderminster as it would induce more visitors to the Welsh capital.

If some ex-FGW HST's join Cross Country as a stop gap measure - until some Meridians (Voyagers) become available from East Midlands electrification, then perhaps this would free up some CC Voyagers in order that they can provide a fast direct service between Cardiff > Birmingham > Sheffield > York & maybe Newcastle?

(The only Voyager service at Cardiff at present connects with Manchester via Bristol ™ - which is completely useless as an end to end service as it is shorter & faster to go via the Marches).

 

[anthony263]

I do think Network rail have stated a suggestion about extending the Cardiff - Cheltenham services through to Worcester & Great Malvern