Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[6Gman]

May I gently point out to all those who want to see six trains per hour along the North Wales Coast* with through services to six destinations via eight different routes** that at 26.3p per passenger km this franchise already receives the highest subsidy rate of any operator. Throwing more trains, units and traincrew at it is unlikely to help.


* I'm exaggerating for effect
** and again.

 

[berneyarms]

It's true that increasing expectations have not been matched by increased footfall beyond Chester. Wrexham is also flat, while Chester and Shrewsbury are steadily up.
I also have my doubts about Merseyrail footfall figures which also show a falling trend (though the multimode fare system and the repeated closure of the tunnel infrastructure may be part of this).
But against that, the local service on the coast has not actually improved in 20 years of privatisation - it's still 2tph split between Manchester-Llandudno and Holyhead-Chester.
All that Arriva did was point the existing Holyhead trains in different directions east/south of Chester (and downgrade them from all-175s to a mix of 150/158/175).
Adding Gerald was about the only true addition, plus the separate increase in Virgin services from 3 to 6 a day after WCRM - which was nothing to do with WG or Arriva.

Quite how many trains per hour do you think that there should be along the North Wales coast?

I'd have thought that 2 is about right being honest about it given the population size.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's true that increasing expectations have not been matched by increased footfall beyond Chester. Wrexham is also flat, while Chester and Shrewsbury are steadily up.
I also have my doubts about Merseyrail footfall figures which also show a falling trend (though the multimode fare system and the repeated closure of the tunnel infrastructure may be part of this).
But against that, the local service on the coast has not actually improved in 20 years of privatisation - it's still 2tph split between Manchester-Llandudno and Holyhead-Chester.
All that Arriva did was point the existing Holyhead trains in different directions east/south of Chester (and downgrade them from all-175s to a mix of 150/158/175).
Adding Gerald was about the only true addition, plus the separate increase in Virgin services from 3 to 6 a day after WCRM - which was nothing to do with WG or Arriva.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the introduction of the 8 through trains a day to Cardiff in 2005 has not stimulated usage along the North Wales Coast.

However I suspect that the fare structure also plays a major role. local fares under 50 miles are higher along the North Wales Coast than the rest of Wales and in the North West of England. The off peak return to Manchester fromHolyhead is 20% higher than from Newtown a similar distance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite how many trains per hour do you think that there should be along the North Wales coast?

I'd have thought that 2 is about right being honest about it given the population size.

I'd say three. One Holyhead to London, one Holyhead to Birmingham via Stafford, one Llandudno to Manchester. And bin that stupid Chester-Crewe shuttle, it is an absolute nuisance and causes people substantial inconvenience in reducing easy access to the important hub of Crewe. Holyhead to Birmingham via Wrexham is pointless, it's way too slow. And nobody in North Wales other than WAG members give a monkey's about Cardiff - Wales simply isn't like Scotland in its allegiances, which is why it will never vote for full independence in a million years. North Wales associates to Manchester, Liverpool and Chester, mid Wales to Shrewsbury and Birmingham, and south Wales to Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Bristol, and all of them to London. The network immediately post-privatisation with the three franchises far better reflected actual demand.

 

[berneyarms]

I'd say three. One Holyhead to London, one Holyhead to Birmingham via Stafford, one Llandudno to Manchester. And bin that stupid Chester-Crewe shuttle, it is an absolute nuisance and causes people substantial inconvenience in reducing easy access to the important hub of Crewe. Holyhead to Birmingham via Wrexham is pointless, it's way too slow. And nobody in North Wales other than WAG members give a monkey's about Cardiff - Wales simply isn't like Scotland in its allegiances, which is why it will never vote for full independence in a million years. North Wales associates to Manchester, Liverpool and Chester, mid Wales to Shrewsbury and Birmingham, and south Wales to Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Bristol, and all of them to London. The network immediately post-privatisation with the three franchises far better reflected actual demand.

Where are all the extra Voyagers going to materialise from to operate an hourly service to London??

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'd say three. One Holyhead to London, one Holyhead to Birmingham via Stafford, one Llandudno to Manchester. And bin that stupid Chester-Crewe shuttle, it is an absolute nuisance and causes people substantial inconvenience in reducing easy access to the important hub of Crewe. Holyhead to Birmingham via Wrexham is pointless, it's way too slow. And nobody in North Wales other than WAG members give a monkey's about Cardiff - Wales simply isn't like Scotland in its allegiances, which is why it will never vote for full independence in a million years. North Wales associates to Manchester, Liverpool and Chester, mid Wales to Shrewsbury and Birmingham, and south Wales to Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Bristol, and all of them to London. The network immediately post-privatisation with the three franchises far better reflected actual demand.

Given the current usage west of Llandudno Junction is only just above that of the Cambrian Coast line which only has 9 trains a day on it I'm not quite sure how 2 tph to Holhead is justified.

 

[6Gman]

I'd say three. One Holyhead to London, one Holyhead to Birmingham via Stafford, one Llandudno to Manchester. And bin that stupid Chester-Crewe shuttle, it is an absolute nuisance and causes people substantial inconvenience in reducing easy access to the important hub of Crewe. Holyhead to Birmingham via Wrexham is pointless, it's way too slow. And nobody in North Wales other than WAG members give a monkey's about Cardiff - Wales simply isn't like Scotland in its allegiances, which is why it will never vote for full independence in a million years. North Wales associates to Manchester, Liverpool and Chester, mid Wales to Shrewsbury and Birmingham, and south Wales to Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Bristol, and all of them to London. The network immediately post-privatisation with the three franchises far better reflected actual demand.

Two trains per hour from Holyhead?

Have you been to Holyhead?



On a slightly more serious note there is a difficulty west of Llandudno Junction. How do you give Holyhead and Bangor a decent long distance service and serve the gatepost shacks in between without wasting resources?

 

[adrock1976]

I did a suggestive Tahkt plan in an Excel spreadsheet recently for the North Wales coast. It is in the Allocations, Diagrams, and Timetables section somewhere.

The brief summary of what I did was as Follows:

London Euston - Chester via Trent Valley Railway (as present timings between London and Crewe) every 60 minutes, with 2 hourly extensions to Holyhead limited stop.
Birmingham New Street (flexibility to run to and from International as present due to the timings) - Llandudno Junction limited stop every 60 minutes, then alternating between Llandudno and Holyhead giving a direct train every 2 hours to each (and doing something with the present Crewe - Chester shuttle). Furthermore, there would be a portion from Manchester via Warrington Bank Quay that would couple/uncouple at Chester, which would also provide a direct train every 2 hours to each of Llandudno and Holyhead. This would call all stations between Chester and Llandudno Junction.
Liverpool Lime Street - Bangor (Gwynedd) via Halton Curve every 60 minutes, with alternating extensions to Holyhead and a reopened Caernarfon every 2 hours. Calls all stations between Chester and Bangor (Gwynedd), with the request stop stations west of Bangor served every 2 hours to and from Holyhead. Furthermore, this would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes at all local stations between Chester and Llandudno Junction, and with a doubled frequency to every 30 minutes also with the Wrexham - Bidston route, this would provide a 15 minute interchange at Shotton between the 2 routes.
Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog to run every 2 hours, with trains passing at North Llantrwst.

There would also be additional shuttles running between Llandudno and Llandudno Junction to fill in the gaps so as to provide a 15 minute frequency, which would connect into trains to and from Holyhead and Caernarfon. Furthermore, there was a shuttle from Caernarfon to Bangor every 2 hours that would connect into the Liverpool train at Bangor, and would also provide a frequency of every 60 minutes between Caernarfon and Bangor.

When I made the Tahkt plan, I set out with the intention of each end point (except Blaenau Ffestiniog) along the coast to have a direct train to each of England's four largest cities on a 2 hourly frequency. Having took Gareth Marston's comments on board, it does feel a bit too much, which has left me thinking of a revised plan.

A possible revised plan as below:

London Euston - Chester via Trent Valley Railway (as present timings between London and Crewe) every 60 minutes, with 2 hourly extensions to Holyhead limited stop.
Birmingham New Street (or International) - Holyhead via Stafford limited stop every 60 minutes. The trains along this route could call at the request stops east of Bangor every 2 hours, with those west of Bangor every 2 hours in the opposite hour.
Manchester Piccadilly (or Airport) - Llandudno via Warrington Bank Quay every 60 minutes. This would call at all stations between Frodsham and Llandudno.
Liverpool Lime Street - Caernarfon via Halton Curve every 60 minutes. This would call at all stations between Frodsham and Llandudno Junction, and would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes along the common section at the local stations. Furthermore, this would also provide a much improved interchange of 15 minutes at Shotton, with the Borderlands route doubled in frequency to every 30 minutes.
Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog every 2 hours, with trains passing at North Llantrwst.
Llandudno - Llandudno Junction shuttle every 2 hours. Combined with the Blaenau Ffestiniog and Manchester trains, this would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between Llandudno Junction and Llandudno.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Footfall along the North Wales Coast line (including Llandudno) is officially c 3.5 million. Only c 1 million of this is west of Llandudno Junction and only c 300K west of Bangor. However Holyhead is where the trains are serviced overnight so it does make sense operationally to run there even if the traffic on offer is poor away from Ferry times. Apart from early morning / evening runs to and from the depot west of the Junction really on justifies 1 tph.

 

[northwichcat]

May I gently point out to all those who want to see six trains per hour along the North Wales Coast* with through services to six destinations via eight different routes** that at 26.3p per passenger km this franchise already receives the highest subsidy rate of any operator. Throwing more trains, units and traincrew at it is unlikely to help.


* I'm exaggerating for effect
** and again.

Like I've said many times before a heavily subsided franchise doesn't automatically mean all sections of all routes are loss making. It's not fair to deprive routes of investment simply because of how well the franchise does overall.

It was once reported having Chester-Warrington-Manchester and Hereford-Manchester in the Wales & Border franchise is reducing the average subsidy per passenger mile/KM and having a Wales only franchise would mean a significantly higher average subsidy per passenger mile/KM.

 

[berneyarms]

I still cannot see any justification for more than two trains an hour along the North Wales coast (1 to/from Holyhead and 1 to/from Llandudno) apart from morning peak eastward, evening peak westward and lunchtime ferry connections.

The current service level is (to my mind) well in excess of what’s actually needed.

 

[daikilo]

I still cannot see any justification for more than two trains an hour along the North Wales coast (1 to/from Holyhead and 1 to/from Llandudno) apart from morning peak eastward, evening peak westward and lunchtime ferry connections.

The current service level is (to my mind) well in excess of what’s actually needed.

And you have summed up the real problem rather well; in order to operate the peaks you need as a minimum vehichles and crew. Once they exist, not using them fully still costs money for which there cannot be revenue.

Personally I think the ATW service level with traffic flows linked by through trains (e.g. a Landudno-Birmingham International service sees a multitude of individual flows, many of which overlap), is close to optimum.

If the WG wants to provide an hourly service between north Wales and south Wales then so be it, and they must accept to pay, but do they want all stations to be served hourly, and what of the Manchesters, Crewes, Birminghams and Virgin? And what service factors do they put on direct vs change? If they get it wrong customers will go elsewhere or complain bitterly.

 

[backontrack]

On a slightly more serious note there is a difficulty west of Llandudno Junction. How do you give Holyhead and Bangor a decent long distance service and serve the gatepost shacks in between without wasting resources?

Hmm.

1tph Holyhead-London (calls at Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint (1tp2h), Shotton (1tp2h), Chester, Crewe, Milton Keynes and London Euston)

1tph Holyhead-Birmingham (calls at Valley, Rhosneigr (1tp2h), Ty Croes (1tp2h), Bodorgan (1tp2h), Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Abergele and Pensarn, Rhyl, Flint (1tp2h), Shotton (1tp2h), Chester, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Smethwick Galton Bridge (1tp2h) and Birmingham New Street

1tph Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly (calls at Deganwy, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Abergele and Pensarn, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Frodsham (1tp2h), Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly)

1tph Llandudno-Llandudno Junction (calls at Deganwy; continues every two hours to Blaenau Ffestiniog calling at all stations)

 

[northwichcat]

Hmm.

1tph Holyhead-London (calls at Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint (1tp2h), Shotton (1tp2h), Chester, Crewe, Milton Keynes and London Euston)

1tph Holyhead-Birmingham (calls at Valley, Rhosneigr (1tp2h), Ty Croes (1tp2h), Bodorgan (1tp2h), Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Abergele and Pensarn, Rhyl, Flint (1tp2h), Shotton (1tp2h), Chester, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Smethwick Galton Bridge (1tp2h) and Birmingham New Street

1tph Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly (calls at Deganwy, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Abergele and Pensarn, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Frodsham (1tp2h), Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly)

1tph Llandudno-Llandudno Junction (calls at Deganwy; continues every two hours to Blaenau Ffestiniog calling at all stations)

There are only 5 trains from Birmingham to Holyhead all day - certainly not an hourly service! There's a 2 hourly Birmingham to Llandudno Junction service between 05:30 and 17:30 with some of the services continuing to Llandudno instead of Holyhead. It's interworked with a 2 hourly service between Birmingham and Aberystwyth - Aberystwyth is certainly not on the North Wales coast!

There's also 6 daily trains from North Wales to London but only 5 in the opposite direction with the 6th Virgin service coming from the West Midlands instead.

 

[berneyarms]

And you have summed up the real problem rather well; in order to operate the peaks you need as a minimum vehichles and crew. Once they exist, not using them fully still costs money for which there cannot be revenue.

Personally I think the ATW service level with traffic flows linked by through trains (e.g. a Landudno-Birmingham International service sees a multitude of individual flows, many of which overlap), is close to optimum.

If the WG wants to provide an hourly service between north Wales and south Wales then so be it, and they must accept to pay, but do they want all stations to be served hourly, and what of the Manchesters, Crewes, Birminghams and Virgin? And what service factors do they put on direct vs change? If they get it wrong customers will go elsewhere or complain bitterly.

The peaks that I was referring to were the existing Virgin services and the WG Express to Cardiff.

The rest would be made up with the hourly ATW service from Holyhead - I don’t see much stock being under-utilised within that.

 

[berneyarms]

There are only 5 trains from Birmingham to Holyhead all day - certainly not an hourly service! There's a 2 hourly Birmingham to Llandudno Junction service between 05:30 and 17:30 with some of the services continuing to Llandudno instead of Holyhead. It's interworked with a 2 hourly service between Birmingham and Aberystwyth - Aberystwyth is certainly not on the North Wales coast!

There's also 6 daily trains from North Wales to London but only 5 in the opposite direction with the 6th Virgin service coming from the West Midlands instead.

The Cardiff and Birmingham services intertwine to deliver an hourly service along the coast (outside of peaks).

There are actually 6 Virgin services from London to North Wales (one terminates at Bangor, the other 5 at Holyhead) and one from Birmingham to Holyhead, and six from Holyhead to London and one from Bangor to Birmingham.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the WG wants to provide an hourly service between north Wales and south Wales then so be it, and they must accept to pay, but do they want all stations to be served hourly, and what of the Manchesters, Crewes, Birminghams and Virgin? And what service factors do they put on direct vs change? If they get it wrong customers will go elsewhere or complain bitterly.

Indeed they will be paying of it (hourly trains from Cardiff) as they will depress usage to elsewhere as trains that don't go where customers want forcing them to change are not popular.

The WG want an hourly service from Cardiff to Holyhead, Skates has promised a two hourly service from North Wales to Birmingham via Wrexham will continue, stakeholders will scream blue murder if the hourly Llandudno to Manchester services are cut back back and they want through trains to Liverpool via Halton Curve and the Virgin services to be every two hours......with 3 tph plus on the coast they'll be plenty of fresh air being carted around.

Of course a savvy bidder may want to make a two hourly Cardiff to Liverpool service via Wrexham, Chester and Halton Curve. They can claim to be serving North Wales hourly (Wrexham will be) combined with a two hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service.

 

[berneyarms]

Well if there is to be an hourly Holyhead to Cardiff via Wrexham then surely that should be scheduled to connect with the Virgin services at Chester, the Cambrian service at Shrewsbury thus offering a cross-platform connection to/from Birmingham. It can then form a slower service along the Marches line each hour.

I’d question the need to keep the direct service from Holyhead to Birmingham if the Cardiff service went hourly as it would be duplicating it for most of the route and having two trains is a waste frankly.

I see no reason for the Llandudno-Manchester train to change to be honest.

I think the Liverpool service might be better going to/from Wrexham?

 

[SeanM1997]

I think the Welsh Franchise should operate:
1ph Llandudno - Manchester Airport
1p2h Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog
1p2h Llandudno - Cardiff Central via Crewe
1p2h Holyhead - Cardiff Central via Crewe
1p2h Holyhead - Birmingham International via Wrexham
1p2h Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Birmingham International
1p2h Aberystwyth - Crewe via Wrexham
1p2h Manchester Piccadilly - Milford Haven
1p2h Manchester Piccadilly - Pembroke Dock
1ph Liverpool Lime Street - Cardiff Central via Wrexham
1p2h Crewe - Llandrindod (4pd extend to Swansea)

Providing better links between Shrewsbury and Cardiff, increase connectivity at Crewe for HS2 passengers, and provide a direct service from Aberystwyth to Crewe to provide connections to Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland. It would also give two trains an hour between Wrexham and Chester/Shrewsbury, and direct services between Liverpool and Cardiff

 

[Rhydgaled]

Someone needs to think about what needs to be done to grow usage on the coast not just obsess with through trains to far away places.

Do Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool count as 'far away places' in this context?

Quite how many trains per hour do you think that there should be along the North Wales coast?

Three east of Llandundo Junction, slightly fewer west thereof:

• 1tph fast Holyhead-Chester and beyond (calling only at Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Fflint, Chester)
• 1tph all stops Llandudno-Chester and beyond
  
• 1tph semi-fast Caernarfon-Chester and beyond (calling at Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn and Fflint hourly, with one train per 2-hours serving both Shotton and Conwy, to provide a through train between the two)
  
• 0.5tph Llandudno-Holyhead (to serve the smaller stations)
• 0.5tph Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog

Where each of these go east of Chester I don't think matters too much as long as the pattern of fast, semi-fast, slow is consistent (eg. if the Liverpool to Chester leg calls at Helsby and Frodsham, as I think it should, then that train shouldn't be the fast Holyhead service). In my opinion the fast Holyhead service should primarily run to Euston, Birmingham (via Crewe and Stafford) or Manchester (the latter with the intermediate stops (except Warrington and Newton-Le-Williows) removed and transfered to the Northern Connect and Halton curve services) but with three a day each way (breakfast, lunch and dinner services), and absolutely no more, to Cardiff for political reasons.

Or, to put it on a station-by-station basis:

• Holyhead - (1tph - 1.5tph)
• Valley, Rhosneigr, Ty Croes and Bodorgan (0.5tph)
• Llanfairpwllgwyngyll (0.5tph - 1tph)
• Caernarfon (1tph)
• Bangor (2tph - 2.5tph)
• Llanfairfechan and Penmaenmawr (0.5tph - 1tph)
• Conwy (1tph - 1.5tph)
• Llandudno and Deganwy (2tph)
  
• Llandudno Junction, Rhyl and Fflint (3tph)
• Blaenau Ffestiniog branch (all stations) (0.5tph)
• Colwyn Bay and Prestatyn (2tph)
• Abergele (1tph)
• Shotton (1.5tph)

Holyhead to Birmingham via Wrexham is pointless, it's way too slow.

I agree. Wrexham-Birmingham and N.Wales-Birmingham aren't pointless in my opinion, but combining them is.

Holyhead to Birmingham via Wrexham is pointless, it's way too slow.

The network immediately post-privatisation with the three franchises far better reflected actual demand.[/QUOTE]Manchester-Cardiff is a fairly important route which wouldn't fit particularly neatly into the three-franchise model though. The Wales & Borders franchise area isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the franchisee understands that most of the main requirements are east-west and provides services accordingly.

I think the Welsh Franchise should operate:
1ph Llandudno - Manchester Airport

I would rather the Wales&Borders Manchester services were sped up and run to Holyhead or Caernarfon, with the peak extra (in the hour Northern Connect doesn't go to Chester) being a Manchester-Llandudno stopper as the current ATW service, with services turning at MAN (Piccadilly) in the peaks rather than going through to the airport (avoiding the near-hour layover the peak extra would otherwise have at MAN).

1p2h Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog

Agreed, I don't think gaps longer than two hours are a good idea on many lines

1p2h Manchester Piccadilly - Milford Haven
1p2h Manchester Piccadilly - Pembroke Dock

No Fishguard on your list? Also, I don't think it is sensible for Pembrokeshire stations to have through trains beyond Cardiff. The Manchester-Cardiff/Swansea route needs 3-car trains minimum, with 4-car needed on many services and perhaps five or six coaches at peak times, but Pembrokeshire to Swansea is generally going to be ok with 2-car services with the odd 3or4-car working in the peaks. For speed (and to give passengers bound for Pembrokeshire a much-better chance of a seat given the short units) I think there should be Cardiff-Carmarthen/Pembs services via the Swansea District Line, going from Cardiff to Carmarthen with just two intermediate stops (Port Talbot and Llanelli) or perhaps three (the other being a new Morriston Parkway station). Thus I would suggest:

• 1tph Manchester - Cardiff - Swansea
• 1tph Swansea - Carmarthen - Whitland (all-stops, including new St. Clears station if it happens)
  
• 1tph Swansea - Carmarthen (all stops save Kidwelly and Ferryside)
  
• 1tph Cardiff - Morriston - Carmarthen (fast)

Of the 3tph between Llanelli and Carmarthen:

• 0.5tph to/from Cardiff should continue west, calling only at Whitland, to Fishguard (twice per day each way, connecting with the ferries and calling at both Fishguard stations) and Milford Haven (calling at Haverfordwest and Johnston)
• 0.5tph to/from Swansea should continue west to Milford Haven, calling at all stations on the branch plus Clunderwen and Clarbeston Road
• 0.5tph to/from Swansea should continue west to Pembroke Dock, calling at all stations on the branch
• a number of trains to/from Swansea should continue west to Fishguard, serving both Fishguard stations, in order to build the route up to broadly 0.5tph when including the fast Cardiff boat trains but retaining the change between odd-and-hours (that allows good times for commuters from Fishguard to Carmarthen) by allowing one or two 3-hour gaps

However, to maintain a roughly 30-minute interval service between Swansea and Carmarthen I think a new passing loop would be needed about halfway between Tenby and Whitland (otherwise, 30min intervals in one direction turn into tail-chasing in the other). I think double-track from Clarbeston Road to Haverfordwest would also be needed to optimise Milford and Fishguard services to work together, though a sub-optimal timetable could probably be delivered without that.

 

[6Gman]

Hmm.

1tph Holyhead-London (calls at Bangor, Conwy, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint (1tp2h), Shotton (1tp2h), Chester, Crewe, Milton Keynes and London Euston)

1tph Holyhead-Birmingham (calls at Valley, Rhosneigr (1tp2h), Ty Croes (1tp2h), Bodorgan (1tp2h), Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Abergele and Pensarn, Rhyl, Flint (1tp2h), Shotton (1tp2h), Chester, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Smethwick Galton Bridge (1tp2h) and Birmingham New Street

1tph Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly (calls at Deganwy, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Abergele and Pensarn, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Shotton, Chester, Frodsham (1tp2h), Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly)

1tph Llandudno-Llandudno Junction (calls at Deganwy; continues every two hours to Blaenau Ffestiniog calling at all stations)

Do Voyagers have SDO?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. Wrexham-Birmingham and N.Wales-Birmingham aren't pointless in my opinion, but combining them is.

I don't even have a problem with Chester-Brum via Wrexham, though that's only for operational convenience. The sensible (read: not awkwardly slow) way to connect North Wales and Birmingham is via Stafford. Or if you aren't going to do that (or can't due to paths) run to Crewe instead, there are plenty of connections and it's more useful for other destinations, and that silly, inconvenient shuttle can be binned off.

 

[adrock1976]

I have done a revised Takt plan for the North Wales coast, which I have posted in the resusscitated thread below

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...connections-taktfahrplan.159506/#post-3414919

 

[Gareth Marston]

Providing better links between Shrewsbury and Cardiff,

Can you tell us whats wrong with the current 28 direct trains a day?

provide a direct service from Aberystwyth to Crewe

Why would anyone from the Cambrian want to take an hour and quarter to get to Crewe via Wrexham and Chester on a direct train when 30 minutes is possible via Whitchurch

I don't even have a problem with Chester-Brum via Wrexham, though that's only for operational convenience. The sensible (read: not awkwardly slow) way to connect North Wales and Birmingham is via Stafford. Or if you aren't going to do that (or can't due to paths) run to Crewe instead, there are plenty of connections and it's more useful for other destinations, and that silly, inconvenient shuttle can be binned off.

If you live between Severn and Dee then you see this very differently they want through links to the West Midlands and have been very vocal about it on both sides of the Border. The Welsh Government have been told in no uncertain terms from North Shropshire and Wrexham CBC whether its sunk in is another thing when i hear things like "clueless prat from Cardiff" being bandied about and the lobbying of DfT and Grayling over "protecting the Borders".

 

[Gareth Marston]

o, I don't think it is sensible for Pembrokeshire stations to have through trains beyond Cardiff. The Manchester-Cardiff/Swansea route needs 3-car trains minimum, with 4-car needed on many services and perhaps five or six coaches at peak times, but Pembrokeshire to Swansea is generally going to be ok with 2-car services with the odd 3or4-car working in the peaks. For speed (and to give passengers bound for Pembrokeshire a much-better chance of a seat given the short units) I think there should be Cardiff-Carmarthen/Pembs services via the Swansea District Line, going from Cardiff to Carmarthen with just two intermediate stops (Port Talbot and Llanelli) or perhaps three (the other being a new Morriston Parkway station). Thus I would suggest:

• 1tph Manchester - Cardiff - Swansea

I wont go into West Wales permutations but Manchester-Newport-Cardiff-Swansea is the only "InterCity" route in the franchise it also serves a number of populous settlements en route - its more Trans Pennine Express than Northern Connect that's for sure. Having traveled First Class with Trans Pennine a bit recently a small section like they currently have in their 185's - 16 seats would be more than adequate in 4 car formations for the route. Don't stop them anywhere less than 10K in population and make it a flagship part of the franchise. The rolling stock can also be used for a handful of genuine North to South Wales Express services a day to keep the "Stakeholders happy" and North Wales can have services that go where the majority of the people who live there want.

 

[krus_aragon]

The rolling stock can also be used for a handful of genuine North to South Wales Express services a day to keep the "Stakeholders happy"

Given how some ideas about Welsh transport resolutely refuse to die, I'm wondering whether some of these stakeholders might take up work as vampire slayers...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Given how some ideas about Welsh transport resolutely refuse to die, I'm wondering whether some of these stakeholders might take up work as vampire slayers...

Some look like their from the crypt anyway.......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool count as 'far away places' in this context?

Distance from Chester

Liverpool - 16.5 miles
Manchester - 40 miles
Birmingham via Stafford 73.5 miles
Birmingham via Wrexham - 85 miles
Cardiff via Wrexham - 148 miles.
London Euston - 179 miles

 

[Kite159]

Rolling stock issues aside, could you get away with running a hourly* stopping service from Holyhead to terminate at Llandudno Junction to allow the long distance services to only call at Bangor?

(* yes I know some of those stations are tiny and in the middle of nowhere)

 

[krus_aragon]

Rolling stock issues aside, could you get away with running a hourly* stopping service from Holyhead to terminate at Llandudno Junction to allow the long distance services to only call at Bangor?

(* yes I know some of those stations are tiny and in the middle of nowhere)

Issues I foresee are boat traffic at Holyhead, and political grumbling that Anglesey loses out on direct trains to Cardiff (but they've got the airport!). West Coast services don't dovetail nicely with most sailings (even assuming the boat arrives on time), so luggage-toting passengers usualy travel on the next Wales & Borders service available.

An overview of the current timetable for passengers arriving at Holyhead by boat (official connection time 30 mins):

0011 Stena and 0020 Irish Ferries: next departure 0425 Cardiff then 0448 London
0545 Stena: next departure 0551 London, then 0629 Cardiff
1045 and 1120 Irish Ferries: next departure 1127 Birmingham then 1232 Cardiff
1150 Stena: next departure 1232 Cardiff then 1252 London
1630 Irish Ferries: next departure 1650 Cardiff, then 1730 Shrewsbury
1840 Stena: next departure 1921 Birmingham via Shrewsbury then 2032 Crewe

Many of these will want to travel to Chester/Crewe before changing for a connecting service: changing at the Junction as well might not be popular. (How many could have a direct train to their destination from Llandudno Junction, I wonder?)