Waiting for a settlement from fare dodging

[WesternLancer]

it does seem highly irregular to ask for an informal phone call - I haven’t seen that yet in these forums.

It does happen - I seem to recall cases with SE Trains for example of such phone discussions

The call would be tomorrow first thing so any advice welcome.

As I’ve been doughnutting and they may have evidence of this would you recommend asking that the extra £10 (which is what I didn’t pay per day I did the journey) is paid and not the full fare per journey? Or do you think this would be looked at badly

Sadly you are probably not in a position to negotiate! They can simply just send the whole thing to court if they don't feel you are being compliant. I suspect they have plenty of evidence to secure a guilty verdict - but they probably are prepared to settle - but don't push it! If it gets to doughnutting discussion I suppose you could offer to pay the 'fare avoided' as opposed to a whole new ticket - but you are not in a strong position, lets face it.

General Advice: Before your call do everything in your power to recall and list out all the fares you think you have avoided (at the Full Anytime Single price) And remember the empty bit of the doughnut is not the difference in the price with what you paid but it's the price between stations B and C on a journey from A to D-

Write all those journeys and fares down in a list with dates and calculate the total - this is not so you can share it with them, but for you to have to refer to immediately to hand - so when they say:

'we think you have avoided £525 worth of train fares' but you think you have only avoided £125 worth or fares (or £1,525 worth of fares) you can react accordingly. If there figure is broadly similar to yours don't be tempted to haggle or debate it - but if they are asking for much more than you think you have evaded then you could at least say that you do not believe you have avoided fares at that level but 'could they provide you with a breakdown so you can understand their figure' - as that does not sound like an unreasonable request (but do not, in the course of the phone call, accuse them of being liars / ripping you off / being plain wrong etc).

You are in a week position here so your best bet is to be prepared as much as you can.

Worth bearing in mind that a recent case on here with Thameslink the person reported back at the end and said that the staff were helpful, understanding and reasonable - albeit the case involved a more minor error ticketing wise.

Good luck with it.

 

[jeremyjh]

They're going to want to calculate the fare for settlement based on Anytime Single fares. Money you'd spent on tickets which weren't valid for the complete journey you made won't make a difference. If the other journey is something they've managed to trace and is also on Southern/Thameslink/Gatwick Express then they'll be seeking to include that.

 

[stupid30s]

It does happen - I seem to recall cases with SE Trains for example of such phone discussions

Sadly you are probably not in a position to negotiate! They can simply just send the whole thing to court if they don't feel you are being compliant. I suspect they have plenty of evidence to secure a guilty verdict - but they probably are prepared to settle - but don't push it! If it gets to doughnutting discussion I suppose you could offer to pay the 'fare avoided' as opposed to a whole new ticket - but you are not in a strong position, lets face it.

General Advice: Before your call do everything in your power to recall and list out all the fares you think you have avoided (at the Full Anytime Single price) And remember the empty bit of the doughnut is not the difference in the price with what you paid but it's the price between stations B and C on a journey from A to D-

Write all those journeys and fares down in a list with dates and calculate the total - this is not so you can share it with them, but for you to have to refer to immediately to hand - so when they say:

'we think you have avoided £525 worth of train fares' but you think you have only avoided £125 worth or fares (or £1,525 worth of fares) you can react accordingly. If there figure is broadly similar to yours don't be tempted to haggle or debate it - but if they are asking for much more than you think you have evaded then you could at least say that you do not believe you have avoided fares at that level but 'could they provide you with a breakdown so you can understand their figure' - as that does not sound like an unreasonable request (but do not, in the course of the phone call, accuse them of being liars / ripping you off / being plain wrong etc).

You are in a week position here so your best bet is to be prepared as much as you can.

With bearing in mind that a recent case on here with Thameslink the person reported back at the end and said that the staff were helpful, understanding and reasonable - albeit the case involved a more minor error ticketing wise.

Good luck with it.

Thank you. This is great advice and I really do appreciate it. I think you’re right I’m in a very weak position which is why I need to comply as much as possible. That’s a good tip about calculating the fares.

 

[spag23]

As I’ve been doughnutting and they may have evidence of this would you recommend asking that the extra £10 (which is what I didn’t pay per day I did the journey) is paid and not the full fare per journey? Or do you think this would be looked at badly

It would be looked at very badly. If you did not have a valid ticket for your entire journey, they will charge you the full single fare. You can't just top up a fraudulent fare to the proper one. In other words, you have forfeited the partial fares you paid.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Thank you. This is great advice and I really do appreciate it. I think you’re right I’m in a very weak position which is why I need to comply as much as possible. That’s a good tip about calculating the fares.

Sounds like you get it! Good luck. You seem to appreciate that you’re fortunate that they appear minded to settle.

Personally, I wouldn’t even ask politely for any kind of reduction, just to be on the safe side. I’d immediately accept, ask if they want my card details there and then, and then collapse in a relieved heap after the call with a stiff one (and I don’t normally drink!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. This is great advice and I really do appreciate it. I think you’re right I’m in a very weak position which is why I need to comply as much as possible. That’s a good tip about calculating the fares.

One other thing I recall from prev advice about interviews or phone discussions is that if you are offered a settlement or asked to pay a sum you should ask very clearly (and ideally get it in writing) that payment of such a sum will indeed end the matter and that they will not then seek to pursue pursue you / prosecute you in court.

You could record the call for your own records (you should tell them you are doing this). If they are recording it then it does not seem unreasonable to me that you could politely explain why you wish to record the call - but you will need to be diplomatic about that because they won't want to see that recording ending up on youtube etc....

And any payment you make ensure they issue you a receipt.

It may sound a bit obvious, but of course you don't want to pay a settlement and then get found guilty in court and have to pay court fine, costs, get criminal record etc etc. You might as well just go to court and plead guilty (they may even then only prosecute the offence (s) they have the best strong evidence on, which depending on the amount of evasion you have done, could cost you less - albeit you would still have a criminal record - which is usually something best avoided if achievable).

And this of course goes back to the issue that @AlterEgo flags - which is that the interview is potentially for them to again evidence should they decide to take you to court, rather than to have a friendly chat about why fare evasion is not their favourite passenger activity....

 

[some bloke]

Given that it would be unwise for them to say "we will definitely agree a settlement if...", what they have said about a settlement seems a pretty good sign.

@WesternLancer has given some very good advice. I wouldn't record the call, as you can get what you need about a settlement in writing and it may irritate the company's man if you ask.

The issue of written confirmation/receipt is probably best left until late on in the conversation when you've made an agreement, or after he takes payment if one or both of those happens during the call. I'm not sure there have been any cases where a company has taken money for a settlement and then prosecuted, or any where they didn't then correct a mistake by dropping the prosecution. Still, it's reasonable to ask for written confirmation that they will not now prosecute, for your peace of mind.

 

[WesternLancer]

Given that it would be unwise for them to say "we will definitely agree a settlement if...", what they have said about a settlement seems a pretty good sign.

@WesternLancer has given some very good advice. I wouldn't record the call, as you can get what you need about a settlement in writing and it may irritate the company's man if you ask.

The issue of confirmation/receipt is probably best left until late on in the conversation or after he takes payment if that happens during the call. I'm not sure there have been any cases where a company has taken money for a settlement and then prosecuted, or any where they didn't then correct a mistake by dropping the prosecution. Still, it's reasonable to ask for confirmation that they will not now prosecute, for your peace of mind.

I do agree with all this (esp ref the recording point)

 

[island]

Just to note that a private individual recording phone calls to which they are a party for private purposes is not in scope of GDPR and is not legally obliged to inform the other party that the call is being recorded.

 

[stupid30s]

Hi everyone just want to say massive thanks and hats off to all of you for helping me.

I literally can’t believe how lucky I’ve been. I’m only paying the difference (partial fare dodged) and an extra fine for the investigation. Completely reasonable. It wasn’t me that negotiated this it was the officer who said that’s what they wanted to do.

There are some reasons for why I was given this option:
- I followed advice here and was extremely apologetic
- I’ve been a customer for many many years and it was only a brief period of time I fare dodged due to cost of living
- Ever since I was stopped I paid the correct fare - he said that if I had have continued then I would be going to court

Another thing everyone should know is that they now routinely check Trainline history.

The fraud officer was extremely polite and kind. Very professional.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone just want to say massive thanks and hats off to all of you for helping me.

I literally can’t believe how lucky I’ve been. I’m only paying the difference (partial fare dodged) and an extra fine for the investigation. Completely reasonable. It wasn’t me that negotiated this it was the officer who said that’s what they wanted to do.

There are some reasons for why I was given this option:
- I followed advice here and was extremely apologetic
- I’ve been a customer for many many years and it was only a brief period of time I fare dodged due to cost of living
- Ever since I was stopped I paid the correct fare - he said that if I had have continued then I would be going to court

Another thing everyone should know is that they now routinely check Trainline history.

The fraud officer was extremely polite and kind. Very professional.

Excellent to hear that - thanks for the update.

Going forward also make sure you don't make any unintentional ticket errors (easier said than done given the complexity of some train fare issues) as there would always be the risk they might not think it was unintentional given they will now have your details on record.

But pleased to hear you have got a good outcome.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone just want to say massive thanks and hats off to all of you for helping me.

I literally can’t believe how lucky I’ve been. I’m only paying the difference (partial fare dodged) and an extra fine for the investigation. Completely reasonable. It wasn’t me that negotiated this it was the officer who said that’s what they wanted to do.

There are some reasons for why I was given this option:
- I followed advice here and was extremely apologetic
- I’ve been a customer for many many years and it was only a brief period of time I fare dodged due to cost of living
- Ever since I was stopped I paid the correct fare - he said that if I had have continued then I would be going to court

Another thing everyone should know is that they now routinely check Trainline history.

The fraud officer was extremely polite and kind. Very professional.

This is good to hear - thanks for letting us know

At the risk of hijacking your thread, is it worth noting that on the basis of this case GTR seems to be using phone interviews not as a way of getting people to provide evidence for prosecution, but as a way of rapidly resolving matters?

If this is the case, then we needn't see phone interviews (at least from this train company) as a threat to be avoided.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you for letting us know the outcome. This is a really good result for you.