Waiting for a settlement from fare dodging

[stupid30s]

Hi everyone. My situation is similar to this https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-back-from-penalty-fine.230193/#post-5609264

Firstly I want to say I have learnt my lesson. I was in bits this morning and really won’t do it again. Part fare dodging is just not worth it at all.

I will definitely respond back with the same as what was put but I have a few questions
- I felt scared and intimidated from the questions due to the behaviour of the rail officers who consistently threatened to get British Transport police and also made me show them my Amazon account as I didn’t have proof of address on me they also grilled me because I am not shown on the electoral register
- I was not offered to pay the penalty fare I assume because I walked a bit away at first and was followed (and then came back)
- They told me that they can check my Trainline account. Is that true? I told them I had done it twice before on that journey when it was probably more like 3/4, this I genuinely don’t remember as I really don’t always fare dodge (they asked me about that specific journey and not others - it will worry me if they can see some others as I’ve done this before but on a different journey)
- it’s thameslink/govia so I’m wondering what is the best way to deal with them? And what should I expect?
- Though I believe the fraud officer etc behaved badly I don’t think complaining will do much but at the same time thameslink on their website say that you only get a notice of prosecution if you refuse to pay then and there then penalty fare, but I was never given this option


Many thanks in advance. Like I said I got caught and it’s not going to happen again.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone. My situation is similar to this https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-back-from-penalty-fine.230193/#post-5609264

Firstly I want to say I have learnt my lesson. I was in bits this morning and really won’t do it again. Part fare dodging is just not worth it at all.

I will definitely respond back with the same as what was put but I have a few questions
- I felt scared and intimidated from the questions due to the behaviour of the rail officers who consistently threatened to get British Transport police and also made me show them my Amazon account as I didn’t have proof of address on me they also grilled me because I am not shown on the electoral register
- I was not offered to pay the penalty fare I assume because I walked a bit away at first and was followed (and then came back)
- They told me that they can check my Trainline account. Is that true? I told them I had done it twice before on that journey when it was probably more like 3/4, this I genuinely don’t remember as I really don’t always fare dodge (they asked me about that specific journey and not others - it will worry me if they can see some others as I’ve done this before but on a different journey)
- it’s thameslink/govia so I’m wondering what is the best way to deal with them? And what should I expect?
- Though I believe the fraud officer etc behaved badly I don’t think complaining will do much but at the same time thameslink on their website say that you only get a notice of prosecution if you refuse to pay then and there then penalty fare, but I was never given this option


Many thanks in advance. Like I said I got caught and it’s not going to happen again.

Hopefully these points will help you weight up the situation - you have not really given enough back ground about what happened or more importantly WHY it happened for advice to cover all that, so you may need to clarify a few things. I assume you 'dodged the fare' as a deliberate decisions not to buy the correct ticket (as opposed to being stopped with a non valid ticket as a result of a mistake that you made eg buying the wrong type of ticket in error)?

- I felt scared and intimidated from the questions due to the behaviour of the rail officers who consistently threatened to get British Transport police

I'm afraid they suspected you of fare evasion, which is a criminal offence. You can't really expect them to be friendly. Look at it from their point of view. If you owned a shop, and caught a shoplifter for example, you might well threaten to call the police - would you put that in an unthreatening manner to the shoplifter?

and also made me show them my Amazon account as I didn’t have proof of address on me they also grilled me because I am not shown on the electoral register

In the UK you do not have to carry a proof of address so you could have tried to politely refuse to show them anything - but given more hardened fare dodgers than you know this and no doubt try to give false addresses you can see why they are keen to get proof of address.

Incidentally - it is an offence not to be on the electoral register as it happens, so it would be wise to get on it assuming you are old enough - even if you are not entitled to vote you are still required to register to vote - you do not then have to vote of course.
see: https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

- I was not offered to pay the penalty fare I assume because I walked a bit away at first and was followed (and then came back)

Well, walking away would not have helped but the Penalty Fare is aimed at people who make genuine ticketing mistakes or perhaps proffer excuses like 'I didn't have time at the station to get a ticket I didn't know how the ticket machine worked etc' - The Railway is not required to offer you this option, and if they suspect you have deliberately evaded paying your fare it is quite likely that they would not offer a Penalty Fare option

- They told me that they can check my Trainline account. Is that true?

Yes, they can check any on line ticket purchase site you might use to buy tickets for any rail journey - in order to help prevent fare evasion crime etc

I told them I had done it twice before on that journey when it was probably more like 3/4, this I genuinely don’t remember as I really don’t always fare dodge (they asked me about that specific journey and not others - it will worry me if they can see some others as I’ve done this before but on a different journey)

Yes, they might work this out and they may put it to you that other journeys have been done without valid tickets. When you hear from them about all of this you will need to reply honestly - but you do not need to incriminate yourself further - when they write to you you can get advice here on how best to word your reply.

- it’s thameslink/govia so I’m wondering what is the best way to deal with them? And what should I expect?

There is a good chance that you will be able to persuade them to offer you an out of court settlement instead of them taking you to court and prosecuting you. You will need to respond to the letter they will send you in the next few weeks. by post - it is vital that you get this letter, and respond to it promptly - as above - when you get it you can return here for advice on what to say in your reply - or look at other threads involving Thameslink to see what has worked for other people in your situation. This is the key action you need to focus on now - ie achieving an out of court settlement.

- Though I believe the fraud officer etc behaved badly I don’t think complaining will do much

Given the situation you are now in I would only consider complaining about their behaviour AFTER you have settled the matter with them or any court case has concluded. You have hinted that you did not 'co-operate' (you said at first you walked away) so you are not in a strong position to make a complaint from what you have said.

but at the same time thameslink on their website say that you only get a notice of prosecution if you refuse to pay then and there then penalty fare, but I was never given this option

I think you have probably misunderstood what the Penalty Fare regs say, or perhaps their website text says or means (post the link or copy the statement if you wish so I can read it), but see my post above on the point about Penalty Fares

Anyway - head back here for more advice as and when you need it - you now need to wait for the letter from Thameslink etc

 

[Gloster]

If you change address at any time in the next six to seven months, even if only temporarily, make sure that you either arrange a Royal Mail Redirection Order or have somebody reliable dealing with your post. When they send you a letter, you generally only have a limited period to reply and try to get an out of court settlement: if you don’t reply in time the matter is likely to go to court.

An out of court settlement is when you pay the railway a sum of money, usually the cost of the journeys involved based on the full price of Anytime Single tickets plus a fee to cover the railway’s investigation costs, usually around £100 (the fee, that is). A fine is imposed by a court.

You may be unhappy about the railway employee’s behaviour, but often they are doing their best to get the seriousness of the situation through to the person they are dealing with, and you admit that you started to walk away and had difficulties giving an address. Being stiff, formal and forceful may be the best way of getting the message through.

The forum will, as mentioned above, need more information in order to help, but avoid giving any details that may identify you.

Note: I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I believe from long reading of this forum that the above is correct.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

From your account, it sounds rather like you refused to engage or stop for the inspectors until they threatened to involve the police. You can hardly blame them for doing that; what would you have done in their shoes? Just shrugged and moved on?

As you allude to, displaying such an attitude is hardly going to motivate them to show discretion in your favour at the time, and is likely to make them wonder if you’re a deliberate and/or repeat offender (which appears to be the case).

Others will be able to give you further advice, but any complaints you have about the officers’ behaviour will not get you off the hook, and will be dealt with entirely separately. “Intimidating behaviour” by inspectors is an allegation which is often made by those starting threads here.

Let us hope there isn’t a next time for you, but, if there is, it’s in your best interest to cooperate (though that doesn’t mean you have to incriminate yourself needlessly).

 

[Hadders]

Welwome to the forum.

Here's the advice I normally give to people who seek our advice in similar circumstances to yourself. I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and aski for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. The train company will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

 

[stupid30s]

Welwome to the forum.

Here's the advice I normally give to people who seek our advice in similar circumstances to yourself. I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and aski for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. The train company will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

Thank you Hadders and to everyone else who has helped me with this.

Honestly I have learnt my lesson and haven’t done it again. I am very frightened of being caught so they did their job and it won’t happen again.

It’s been over two months and I know you said it could take a max of 6 months - is there any reasons at all as to why it can take that long? Is there any chance that the enforcer might have either taken pity on me (I was very sorry and crying) or dropped it (if he thought that some of his colleagues might’ve misbehaved?) Not disputing what I’ve done but very sick of waiting and just want to pay now.

 

[island]

The 6 months represents the maximum length of time they have to lay an information before the magistrates court which commences a prosecution.

There really is no specific length of time they aim for, it will take as long as it takes.

 

[stupid30s]

The 6 months represents the maximum length of time they have to lay an information before the magistrates court which commences a prosecution.

There really is no specific length of time they aim for, it will take as long as it takes.

Hi Island - I said to them when questioned that I would want to settle. Does the six months still count for this?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi Island - I said to them when questioned that I would want to settle. Does the six months still count for this?

They can settle whenever they like if they are so inclined. There is no six month limit on asking for a settlement but bear in mind it is not your choice as to whether you will be offered this option.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you Hadders and to everyone else who has helped me with this.

Honestly I have learnt my lesson and haven’t done it again. I am very frightened of being caught so they did their job and it won’t happen again.

It’s been over two months and I know you said it could take a max of 6 months - is there any reasons at all as to why it can take that long? Is there any chance that the enforcer might have either taken pity on me (I was very sorry and crying) or dropped it (if he thought that some of his colleagues might’ve misbehaved?) Not disputing what I’ve done but very sick of waiting and just want to pay now.

Two factors at play at the moment:

1. Rail strikes. I don't know if anyone working in the Prosecutions Department has been on strike but if they have this will slow things down
2. Royal Mail strikes mean severe delays in post being delivered. Yesterday I received some Christmas cards posted in early December!

 

[Haywain]

1. Rail strikes. I don't know if anyone working in the Prosecutions Department has been on strike but if they have this will slow things down

They may well have been called on to perform other duties during strikes, meaning less time to do the 'day job'.

 

[island]

Hi Island - I said to them when questioned that I would want to settle. Does the six months still count for this?

It's not so much a case of whether it "counts" or not. A settlement, if offered, allows you to resolve the matter without being prosecuted in court. If the time limit has passed, then you would have no real incentive to pay any settlement as the train company doesn't have the threat of prosecution to hold as an alternative.

 

[Huntergreed]

It's not so much a case of whether it "counts" or not. A settlement, if offered, allows you to resolve the matter without being prosecuted in court. If the time limit has passed, then you would have no real incentive to pay any settlement as the train company doesn't have the threat of prosecution to hold as an alternative.

Is there anything a TOC could do if, after 6 months, a settlement was refused?

Presumably they are able to ban individuals from using their services?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there anything a TOC could do if, after 6 months, a settlement was refused?

Presumably they are able to ban individuals from using their services?

They could file a civil claim, but that is almost unheard of.

 

[island]

In theory they could prosecute for an indictable or either-way offence such as fraud by false representation, if they can prove it. Which is quite difficult and unlikely.

 

[stupid30s]

Thanks everyone. I’ve still had nothing through. I can only hope it’s been thrown out in favour of much more serious fare dodgers though I’m not hopeful. I’ve had mail since so it’s not that. It’ll be three months since the incident in a few days.

And best you believe I am buying proper tickets since and after! Learnt my lesson

 

[antharro]

I don't want to rain on your parade, but they do have six months to get that letter to you and take the case to court. So, three months in is good going, but hold off on the celebrations for the moment!

 

[30907]

Thanks everyone. I’ve still had nothing through. I can only hope it’s been thrown out in favour of much more serious fare dodgers though I’m not hopeful.

Unlikely, I'm afraid, because almost certainly they would prosecute you under the Byelaws, which is very straightforward - the "more serious cases" will require more staff time (and probably specialist staff). Sorry.

 

[432thameslink]

Hi are there any updates on this?

 

[Gloster]

Hi are there any updates on this?

If you have a problem you would be best starting a separate thread. No two problems are exactly the same and good advice for one could be bad advice for another. Please read the advice linked from the top of the Disputes & Prosecutions Forum first.

 

[stupid30s]

Have had this emailed to me. I’ve said the following now waiting for a reply. It’s been three months before getting this and I’m unsure why they haven’t specified what fares they are speaking about and also haven’t asked for my version of events but perhaps that isn’t a bad thing. I’m keen to sort this out as soon as possible.


Thank you for your email - happy to reply.

I am very sorry for what I did and I deeply regret it. I have learnt from the incident that it was unacceptable for me to fare dodge and I promise it will never happen again. I understand that my actions cost Govia a lot of money as you have outlined which is unacceptable.

I am very keen to settle the matter without court action so I can ensure that Govia is happy. I would like the opportunity to pay for the outstanding fare and any administrative costs you have. I will ensure I pay this in a timely manner as I have definitely learnt my lesson that this is unacceptable. I'd be happy to pay today and depending on the fine, set up a payment plan or pay in full.

Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would take out the bit "I can ensure that Govia is happy" They certainly won't be happy dealing with yet, another fare dodging case....

 

[stupid30s]

I would take out the bit "I can ensure that Govia is happy" They certainly won't be happy dealing with yet, another fare dodging case....

I’m afraid I’ve sent it but do take your point. Was no offence meant to the officer.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think we have seen a GTR case on here where they have requested to speak to the person involved. That indicates to me that the level of fare evasion they have discovered is very serious.

Be careful what you say when you speak to them. If they invite you to a formal interview to discuss the case then you should seek legal advice and arrange for a solicitor to be present at the interview.

 

[AlterEgo]

Please do not correspond with them in future about your criminal offences without taking at least some counsel, even if it is from a forum like this and not a solicitor.

As @Hadders mentions, GTR don't normally do this and it may have been wiser to take stock first.

 

[furlong]

I do recall one, maybe two, threads - interviews resulted in settlements, but larger ones than we normally see on here, both in terms of a higher volume of avoided fares and higher compensation given the extra work gathering evidence and holding the interview.

 

[some bloke]

I walked a bit away at first and was followed (and then came back)

Maybe they are interested to "discuss" because of your attitude, more than because they think evidence indicates very serious offending.

very sick of waiting and just want to pay now.

I’m keen to sort this out as soon as possible.

Slow and careful can bring better results.

I understand that my actions cost Govia a lot of money

the outstanding fare

Those may not be consistent, and referring to a singular "fare" is not the most helpful when they are talking about multiple instances. One option is to send a follow-up email listing the times you did it, hoping to get a settlement offer rather than an invitation to interview. Don't do this yet - I'd be interested in other views. I'm inclined to think it's worth doing, to respond to the point they put about multiple dates.

It may be worth noting that they refer to the investigation having "established" that you avoided fares on multiple dates, rather than something like "suggests that you may have".

 

[stupid30s]

Maybe they are interested to "discuss" because of your attitude, more than because they think evidence indicates very serious offending.



Slow and careful can bring better results.



Those may be a bit contradictory, and referring to a singular "fare" is not the most helpful when they are talking about multiple instances. One option is to send a follow-up email listing the times you did it, hoping to get a settlement offer rather than an invitation to interview. Don't do this yet - I'd be interested in other views. I'm inclined to think it's worth doing, to respond to the point they put about multiple dates.

It may be worth noting that they refer to the investigation having "established" that you avoided fares on multiple dates, rather than something like "suggests that you may have".

Thanks everyone I’m now panicking and really appreciate the advice. I had no idea that they may want an interview. Is this what they mean when they say this? Have you heard of people having an interview before?

How much were the larger settlements?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

I would take out the bit "I can ensure that Govia is happy" They certainly won't be happy dealing with yet, another fare dodging case....

I do recall one, maybe two, threads - interviews resulted in settlements, but larger ones than we normally see on here, both in terms of a higher volume of avoided fares and higher compensation given the extra work gathering evidence and holding the interview.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Maybe they are interested to "discuss" because of your attitude, more than because they think evidence indicates very serious offending.



Slow and careful can bring better results.



Those may not be consistent, and referring to a singular "fare" is not the most helpful when they are talking about multiple instances. One option is to send a follow-up email listing the times you did it, hoping to get a settlement offer rather than an invitation to interview. Don't do this yet - I'd be interested in other views. I'm inclined to think it's worth doing, to respond to the point they put about multiple dates.

It may be worth noting that they refer to the investigation having "established" that you avoided fares on multiple dates, rather than something like "suggests that you may have".

@Hadders what do you think of this?
I could at least say
“Sorry as an add on to what I said I said fare and not fares - please do let me know what you would like to do moving forward.”

 

[some bloke]

There should be less to worry about if you only did this a few times.

Maybe they want to see whether trying to get away indicated very serious offending - which you are perhaps saying it doesn't.

People are sometimes invited to interview to establish the times fares were avoided.

It may be significant that the letter to you doesn't say "interview" but "discuss", which might mean an email exchange would satisfy them. It isn't surprising that they want you to clarify what you have done. That doesn't mean they won't settle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

I could at least say
“Sorry as an add on to what I said I said fare and not fares

You would cooperate, which means listing the details of the times you did it. It sounds like you are going to have to do that at some stage anyway.

You could clam up, but apart from anything else they've caught you once and you admitted to two other times. That adds to whatever evidence they have for the other occasions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

it will worry me if they can see some others as I’ve done this before but on a different journey

If you are talking about a large number of offences, you may want to think differently about the situation, including whether to pay for legal advice/a solicitor to attend an interview if you are invited to one. What is a large number? A large enough number to hire a solicitor may depend on your priorities and finances.

 

[stupid30s]

Hi all the man has got back to me and wants an informal phone call and they are hoping to settle. I have a feeling as this is my first caught offence and I’ve paid full tickets after being caught plus my apology that they may want to just sort it with a settlement instead of an interview. Any other thoughts or things you would recommend welcome - it does seem highly irregular to ask for an informal phone call - I haven’t seen that yet in these forums.

The call would be tomorrow first thing so any advice welcome.

I have a feeling that if I refused this would just make things more expensive. For example if solicitors were joining in and having a formal interview would just exacerbate things and would mean racking up more in the way of fines. (When as it stands I have been doing this on and off for 4 months on another journey, only a few times to Farringdon which though seems like a lot it’s more expensive to elongate this)

As I’ve been doughnutting and they may have evidence of this would you recommend asking that the extra £10 (which is what I didn’t pay per day I did the journey) is paid and not the full fare per journey? Or do you think this would be looked at badly

Any advice you can give is appreciated though I understand that this may be a new situation for you all to discuss.

Please do look on me as kindly as you can. I don’t say any of the above glibly. It’s not an excuse but I was really struggling with trying to get flexi time for work. I moved jobs expressly so I could do one less train journey a week as it’s just so expensive. I’m also relatively young and I have really learnt my lesson not to do this again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Here’s the email without any identifying info