WAG Express discussion

[jones_bangor]

To Drimnagh Road.

Some may like to think Bangor is the largest town in North Wales,but it is not,largest on the coast perhaps is what you meant but Wrexham is by far the largest town in North Wales & in need of urgent extra rail capacity

In terms of usage, the Bangor station is the most heavily used - the recent enlarged car park (which is heavily used) will probably see increased usage figures. Its catchment size means that people from Gwynedd and most of Anglesey use the station.

Wrexham is by far the biggest town in North Wales. Bangor, by virtue of the cathedral, is a city!! (but smaller than Wrexham)

I certainly don't see it as a ''luxury'' supplement! I find the 175s nicer personally. Then again I haven't been on the WAG so can't say! I still think it beggars belief that it doesn't stop at Hereford but that's another thing...

I think the whole timetable will have to be reviewed once 67s and DVTs come on line, I've seen various posts indicating that the 67s can't keep the same time as 57s.......

The northbound 1615 would be even busier between Cardiff and Shrewsbury - there are certainly standing passengers on that as far as Cwmbran at the moment, not sure what numbers a stop at Hereford would add......

 

[The Informer]

You forget the WAG Ex is a political train, supposed to join up North & South,well that's the idea, so if WAG throw £2millions at ATW to run it, the piper should call the tune as to where it travels.
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Hereford is an ATW hub station,makes no sense to call at Chester & Shrewsbury Hubs & leave out Hereford, after all Hereford station is managed by Cardiff.

Couldn't agree more!
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The WAG Express services HAVE improved travel provision in Wales, like it or not.

I would argue that the right wing mob in Westminster are the true masters of self interest!!

The issue with the connectivity at Crewe arose because of the need to serve Wrexham and the West Coast modernisation, 15 years ago the class 37s would serve Crewe from Holyhead / Bangor, together with Birmingham services which went via Crewe and WCML. Virgin Trains have obviously upped their service a bit, so there has been a bit of give and take...

One way to improve the service from the coast to Birmingham would be improve linespeed between Gobowen and Shrewsbury, that really could knock time off the journey.

The current Birmingham - Holyhead service really is a "slow" as opposed to the "semi-fast/express" that was displaced.

Speed increases between salop and chester are in the plan, But not untill 2013 I believe.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I think the whole timetable will have to be reviewed once 67s and DVTs come on line, I've seen various posts indicating that the 67s can't keep the same time as 57s.......

The northbound 1615 would be even busier between Cardiff and Shrewsbury - there are certainly standing passengers on that as far as Cwmbran at the moment, not sure what numbers a stop at Hereford would add......

Do most of them get off at Cwmbran? Because the next stop is Shrewsbury and they wouldn't stand for a 2-hour journey from Cardiff to Shrewsbury would they?

 

[tbtc]

The problem here is the ATW are the Welsh franchise

Its funny how many people forget the "and Borders" part of the Wales & Borders franchise.

 

[jones_bangor]

Do most of them get off at Cwmbran? Because the next stop is Shrewsbury and they wouldn't stand for a 2-hour journey from Cardiff to Shrewsbury would they?

The train isn't THAT busy, everyone seems to have a seat post Cwmbran.
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Its funny how many people forget the "and Borders" part of the Wales & Borders franchise.

In terms of economic prosperity, strong links between Wales and Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol etc etc are vital - no one denies that. I'd like to see a top class service, but clearly there isn't enough stock out there at the moment.

It's up to WG to secure that funding to address that.

 

[The Planner]

I think the whole timetable will have to be reviewed once 67s and DVTs come on line, I've seen various posts indicating that the 67s can't keep the same time as 57s.......

They'll match the 57s, they cannot keep a 175 path though.

 

[tbtc]

In terms of economic prosperity, strong links between Wales and Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol etc etc are vital - no one denies that. I'd like to see a top class service, but clearly there isn't enough stock out there at the moment.

It's up to WG to secure that funding to address that.

Looks like the politicians have other priorities, hence the obsession with Holyhead - Cardiff...

 

[ValleyLines142]

The train isn't THAT busy, everyone seems to have a seat post Cwmbran.

I was going to say, as there'd be a problem if people were standing to Shrewsbury.

 

[jones_bangor]

Looks like the politicians have other priorities, hence the obsession with Holyhead - Cardiff...

I don't see improving North - South links as an "obsession", more of a duty of a government in Wales.

I think all the issues of overcrowding etc will have to be addressed at the next franchise - several routes aren't up to scratch at the moment.

 

[merlodlliw]

.....

The northbound 1615 would be even busier between Cardiff and Shrewsbury - there are certainly standing passengers on that as far as Cwmbran at the moment, not sure what numbers a stop at Hereford would add......[/QUOTE]Jones Bangor


Lets not forget WAG1 down replaced a stopper Cardiff to Abergavenny. See
BHO on the timetables, same with WAG2 up, Cwmbran & Wrexham gained no extra services.
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Wrexham is by far the biggest town in North Wales. Bangor, by virtue of the cathedral, is a city!! (but smaller than Wrexham) Jones Bangor

Indeed Wrexham is by far the largest of all Towns & Cities in North Wales,plus Wrexham also has a Cathedral too, St Marys.

 

[Drimnagh Road]

To Drimnagh Road.

Some may like to think Bangor is the largest town in North Wales,but it is not,largest on the coast perhaps is what you meant but Wrexham is by far the largest town in North Wales & in need of urgent extra rail capacity

Bob

Thanks Bob.

In my ignorance, for some reason I always think of North Wales as just the "Coast", anything south that is not on the coast is Mid-Wales, which of course is simply not the case.

I should have clarified. Yep, I was referring to the old Crewe-Holyhead service, in which Bangor was probably the biggest town on the route (after Chester). This biggest town on the North Wales coast could possibly be served by a second hourly service by diverting the Manchester-Llandudno service there.

Happy Christmas.

Glen

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I would (personally speaking) love to see a route that doesn't involve Welsh people having to travel into England to traverse their own country from north to south! [/QUOTE]

I agree, but despite the thoughts of some of my Nationalist colleagues that the English closed all the lines down in the 1960's the main route was always via Crewe - one of my father's earliest memories was travelling to Cardiff with his father in 1920 via Crewe and the Marches....if I had an old timetable I would love to plot an alternative route, one suspects that it would take a long time along meandering country branch lines - the sort of thing only a train buff would have enjoyed! Come to think of it, if it were possible, I'd quite like to do it now - as I have time on my hands!

 

[Greenback]

I would (personally speaking) love to see a route that doesn't involve Welsh people having to travel into England to traverse their own country from north to south!

I agree, but despite the thoughts of some of my Nationalist colleagues that the English closed all the lines down in the 1960's the main route was always via Crewe - one of my father's earliest memories was travelling to Cardiff with his father in 1920 via Crewe and the Marches....if I had an old timetable I would love to plot an alternative route, one suspects that it would take a long time along meandering country branch lines - the sort of thing only a train buff would have enjoyed! Come to think of it, if it were possible, I'd quite like to do it now - as I have time on my hands![/QUOTE]

Yes indeed. The routes through Mid Wales that were closed were hardly high speed lines, the phrase meandering country branches seems quite apt when you trace the former lines on an OS map!

They all seemed to be pretty much single track as well, so even if they had survived they would have been pretty uncompetitive time wise for the majority of journeys, not just in terms of the travelling time, but in the delays they would have encountered.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

To Drimnagh Road.

Some may like to think Bangor is the largest town in North Wales,but it is not,largest on the coast perhaps is what you meant but Wrexham is by far the largest town in North Wales & in need of urgent extra rail capacity

From my own very unscientific observations, and having travelled from Bangor to Birmingham using ATW on a number of occasions this year, I have always thought that Bangor was the busiest station, despite Wrexham's greater population, I put this down to the ever increasing number of students in Bangor.
I also feel that the Chester - Shrewsbury line still has the 'feel' of (almost) a country branch line and that it has still not recovered from its severe downgrading when it lost its 'main line' status with the loss of through services from London and Ruabon and Gobowen were no longer junctions. I can't really comment on whether it needs extra capacity, but the service now is far, far better than it was when BR downgraded it - what was the service 20-30 years ago - hourly shuttles between Chester and Shrewsbury?

 

[Greenback]

To Drimnagh Road.

Some may like to think Bangor is the largest town in North Wales,but it is not,largest on the coast perhaps is what you meant but Wrexham is by far the largest town in North Wales & in need of urgent extra rail capacity

From my own very unscientific observations, and having travelled from Bangor to Birmingham using ATW on a number of occasions this year, I have always thought that Bangor was the busiest station, despite Wrexham's greater population, I put this down to the ever increasing number of students in Bangor.
I also feel that the Chester - Shrewsbury line still has the 'feel' of (almost) a country branch line and that it has still not recovered from its severe downgrading when it lost its 'main line' status with the loss of through services from London and Ruabon and Gobowen were no longer junctions. I can't really comment on whether it needs extra capacity, but the service now is far, far better than it was when BR downgraded it - what was the service 20-30 years ago - hourly shuttles between Chester and Shrewsbury?

For a while there was only a two hourly service between Chester and Crewe for most of the day.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

For a while there was only a two hourly service between Chester and Crewe for most of the day.[/QUOTE]

I rest my case, then!

 

[175001]

From my own very unscientific observations, and having travelled from Bangor to Birmingham using ATW on a number of occasions this year, I have always thought that Bangor was the busiest station, despite Wrexham's greater population, I put this down to the ever increasing number of students in Bangor.

I thought that as well, but the 09/10 stats show otherwise, which came as a surprise to me!

Bangor - 0.592 million
Wrex Gen - 0.684 million

Bangor as a University without a shadow of a doubt is growing, I sadly graduated in 2009 there! I went back 4 weeks ago on a Tuesday evening to visit my beloved Bangor City FC, 3-car 175 full and standing on the 1612 off Llandudno Junction, then emptied at Bangor with the Students

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For a while there was only a two hourly service between Chester and Crewe for most of the day.

I think you mean Chester-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton (which fell to a 2-hourly shuttle from 1967 to about 1990).
In fact it was only when ATW introduced the Cardiff-Holyhead trains that the service became hourly.
The Marches line was not much better, reduced to a Cardiff-Crewe shuttle after inter-city trains were diverted via Birmingham in 1969. After a while they extended them to Manchester/Liverpool.
Cardiff-Holyhead was a relatively recent addition (1990-ish) with a single train running via Crewe.

Chester-Crewe has always been 2tph, one of which started on the coast, the other a shuttle. There were a few Holyhead-Crewe-Birmingham trains.
Today's 2tph coast-Chester at one time combined at Llandudno Jn and split at Chester for Manchester and Crewe.

Today's service is far better than anything under BR.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Today's service is far better than anything under BR.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I'm sure that it is, and your explanation completes the picture for me (I had a gap of twenty years or so when railway matters mostly fell off my horizon - and so I missed the pre and post privatisation eras)

 

[jones_bangor]

I thought that as well, but the 09/10 stats show otherwise, which came as a surprise to me!

Bangor - 0.592 million
Wrex Gen - 0.684 million

I don't know where you got those stats from, the data for 09/10 show

Bangor - Entries & Exits = 591,978
Wrexham General = 584,176

(Source: ORR website).

 

[175001]

I don't know where you got those stats from, the data for 09/10 show

Bangor - Entries & Exits = 591,978
Wrexham General = 584,176

(Source: ORR website).

Was on a document I received a few months, but that's even better

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I don't know where you got those stats from, the data for 09/10 show

Bangor - Entries & Exits = 591,978
Wrexham General = 584,176

(Source: ORR website).

I'm confused now! I was going to apologise to Wrexham......

 

[TDK]

Its funny how many people forget the "and Borders" part of the Wales & Borders franchise.

Sorry but I used to work for Wales and Borders and when ATW took over the franchise they lost the London, Liverpool and Bristol work to confine the franchise to mainly wales - the Wales and Borders franchise is history and it is now Arriva Trains Wales and it is a Welsh franchise
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The WAG Express services HAVE improved travel provision in Wales, like it or not.

I would argue that the right wing mob in Westminster are the true masters of self interest!!

The issue with the connectivity at Crewe arose because of the need to serve Wrexham and the West Coast modernisation, 15 years ago the class 37s would serve Crewe from Holyhead / Bangor, together with Birmingham services which went via Crewe and WCML. Virgin Trains have obviously upped their service a bit, so there has been a bit of give and take...

One way to improve the service from the coast to Birmingham would be improve linespeed between Gobowen and Shrewsbury, that really could knock time off the journey.

The current Birmingham - Holyhead service really is a "slow" as opposed to the "semi-fast/express" that was displaced.

No it wouldn't improve it much - the current line speed is 70mph for sprinters, even if it was increased to 90mph this would only knock off 3 minutes to the journey time, there would be no point in increasing it from Wrexham to Gobowen as you harly get to 70 before you have to brake for the stations
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The WAG Express services HAVE improved travel provision in Wales, like it or not.

Indeed at the taxpayers expence for a premier service that is lightly used - the money should have gone elsewher like improving the existing services - stuck record I think - Jones - you need to admit that the money so far spent on this service is not merited and should have been spent elsewhere, we can rant on about left and right as long as we breath but the money is wasted!

 

[jones_bangor]

Indeed at the taxpayers expence for a premier service that is lightly used - the money should have gone elsewher like improving the existing services - stuck record I think - Jones - you need to admit that the money so far spent on this service is not merited and should have been spent elsewhere, we can rant on about left and right as long as we breath but the money is wasted!

Lightly used in First, maybe, but standard class is busy whenever I use the train.

Not sardine standards, I admit, but busy enough - I'd welcome similar improvements elsewhere.

 

[TDK]

Could tick the Wrexham to Bidston 3rd rail with this box.

I thought it was not permitted to install 3rd rail to any new routes? Will this be an extension for the Mersy Rail line? If so will ATW lose the Bidstons?

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you mean Chester-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton (which fell to a 2-hourly shuttle from 1967 to about 1990).
In fact it was only when ATW introduced the Cardiff-Holyhead trains that the service became hourly.
The Marches line was not much better, reduced to a Cardiff-Crewe shuttle after inter-city trains were diverted via Birmingham in 1969. After a while they extended them to Manchester/Liverpool.
Cardiff-Holyhead was a relatively recent addition (1990-ish) with a single train running via Crewe.

Chester-Crewe has always been 2tph, one of which started on the coast, the other a shuttle. There were a few Holyhead-Crewe-Birmingham trains.
Today's 2tph coast-Chester at one time combined at Llandudno Jn and split at Chester for Manchester and Crewe.

Today's service is far better than anything under BR.

Agree with that, Chester Crewe was always every 30 Minutes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry but I used to work for Wales and Borders and when ATW took over the franchise they lost the London, Liverpool and Bristol work to confine the franchise to mainly wales - the Wales and Borders franchise is history and it is now Arriva Trains Wales and it is a Welsh franchise

No, it is not. It is a DfT/ORR franchise managed by WAG until 2018.
There are "Welsh Rights" and "English Rights" to the franchise and the WAG does not control the latter.
ATW have significant obligations outside Wales.
Last time I looked there was no border post at Saltney (though the old one on the turnpike is still there!).

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't know where you got those stats from, the data for 09/10 show

Bangor - Entries & Exits = 591,978
Wrexham General = 584,176

(Source: ORR website).

Panic, Wrexham with a single track & one IC a day,only 7K down on Bangor

 

[anthony263]

I thought it was not permitted to install 3rd rail to any new routes? Will this be an extension for the Mersy Rail line? If so will ATW lose the Bidstons?

True but you are only really extending the current Merseyrail 3rd rail system from Bidston to Wrexham Central which I personally think is a good thing especially if it allows Wrexham to have a direct service to Liverpool instead of passengers having to change at Bidston.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry but I used to work for Wales and Borders and when ATW took over the franchise they lost the London, Liverpool and Bristol work to confine the franchise to mainly wales - the Wales and Borders franchise is history and it is now Arriva Trains Wales and it is a Welsh franchise

I'm not talking about the trading name.

The Wales & Borders franchise operates a number of stations in England, it operates trains wholly within England (Crewe - Chester, Crewe - Shrewsbury), even the North Wales - South Wales services run through a lot of England (apart from when Assembly politicians pay for them not to).

These appear to be inconvenient truths to those who want to be able to pretend that the principality is equivalent to Scotland (in terms of being a country with a pretty self contained TOC).
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True but you are only really extending the current Merseyrail 3rd rail system from Bidston to Wrexham Central which I personally think is a good thing especially if it allows Wrexham to have a direct service to Liverpool instead of passengers having to change at Bidston.

If there were a direct Liverpool service then Wrexham would easily overtake Bangor's passenger stats
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I don't see improving North - South links as an "obsession", more of a duty of a government in Wales

The "duty" of the "Government"?

I asked before on this thread for evidence of private sector investment that this expensive link has created. There was no reply, funnily enough...

Local politicians certainly have some grand ideas don't they