WAG Express discussion

[jones_bangor]

You are probably right, but I can assure you that WAG1's load out of Chester is principally headed to Crewe (and English destinations beyond).
Yet another unnecessary clamber over the footbridge and loss of connectivity.
There will be a 52min peak-hour gap between Chester-Crewe trains if WAG1 is diverted.

Even when a DVT is available, there is still the problem of finding a Saltney-Wrexham path at a time when VT's Wrexham service is coming the other way, and sorting out the local services to Shrewsbury/Bidston.

The loss of Crewe connectivity is an issue - perhaps ATW could arrange a shuttle?

It's going to a considerable re-jig to facilitate WAG 1 via Wrexham.......

 

[merlodlliw]

The loss of Crewe connectivity is an issue - perhaps ATW could arrange a shuttle?

It's going to a considerable re-jig to facilitate WAG 1 via Wrexham.......

When WAG1 started a path was found to run it via Wrexham, but ATW wanted it via Crewe for revenue. The path was found by WCBCs rail expert David Bithel.
IWJ should have dictated the route, not be told which way by ATW
I agree with LNW, the vast majority boarding at Chester get off at Crewe. or did on Nov 3rd. My colleagues confirm this on other days.

 

[Squaddie]

I agree with LNW, the vast majority boarding at Chester get off at Crewe. or did on Nov 3rd. My colleagues confirm this on other days.

But, presumably, there will be a lot of other passengers making shorter journeys that do not involve passing through Chester and Crewe? The Holyhead-Cardiff train does not only serve passengers travelling between the north Wales coast and the capital.

 

[Michael.Y]

IWJ should have dictated the route, not be told which way by ATW

Sorry, but I disagree completely. A train's route should be dictated by the operator, not by here-today, gone tomorrow provincial politicians.

The WAG Express is just IWJ's personal shuttle to-and-from Cardiff anyway.

The only way the WAG Express will be viable is if it arrives in Cardiff before 0900.

 

[ValleyLines142]

The only way the WAG Express will be viable is if it arrives in Cardiff before 0900.

This wouldn't work of course because there is already the 0425 Holyhead - Cardiff (1V51), which arrives at Cardiff at 0923. For the WAG Express to arrive into Cardiff before 0900 it would have to leave Holyhead at around 0430, or start short from Shrewsbury or Chester (although you'd have to be careful not to clash with 1V49 the 0515 Chester - Maesteg which gets into Cardiff at 0815ish).

 

[Michael.Y]

This wouldn't work of course because there is already the 0425 Holyhead - Cardiff (1V51), which arrives at Cardiff at 0923. For the WAG Express to arrive into Cardiff before 0900 it would have to leave Holyhead at around 0430, or start short from Shrewsbury or Chester (although you'd have to be careful not to clash with 1V49 the 0515 Chester - Maesteg which gets into Cardiff at 0815ish).

Maybe not Chester, but how about Manchester via Chester?

 

[jones_bangor]

Sorry, but I disagree completely. A train's route should be dictated by the operator, not by here-today, gone tomorrow provincial politicians.

The WAG Express is just IWJ's personal shuttle to-and-from Cardiff anyway.

The only way the WAG Express will be viable is if it arrives in Cardiff before 0900.

I don't agree - I regularly travel to and from Cardiff from Bangor, at the WAG Express has made a big difference.

It was a commitment in "One Wales" by Labour & Plaid in order to ease the burden of getting from North to South - my view is that the LHCS should be enhanced.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Maybe not Chester, but how about Manchester via Chester?

So are you suggesting an early-morning Manchester-Cardiff with the WAG Express?

 

[tbtc]

Sorry, but I disagree completely. A train's route should be dictated by the operator, not by here-today, gone tomorrow provincial politicians

This is the problem with the WAG Express.

If it were up to the TOC then it wouldn't run (if you want additional capacity over the Marches line, on top of the hourly Manchester service and the bi-hourly Holyhead service then you'd add another Manchester service because that route is the busier one). And you'd stop it at a busy English station like Hereford

But the Politicians call the shots, so they are paying for an uneconomical service. And these are the guys who want more railway powers?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Personally, I do not see the point in the WAG Express, there is already a regular services along the Welsh Marches Line, and it also calls at Abergavenny but not Hereford or Ludlow. Makes no sense if you ask me!

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry, but I disagree completely. A train's route should be dictated by the operator, not by here-today, gone tomorrow provincial politicians.

The WAG Express is just IWJ's personal shuttle to-and-from Cardiff anyway.

The only way the WAG Express will be viable is if it arrives in Cardiff before 0900.

You forget the WAG Ex is a political train, supposed to join up North & South,well that's the idea, so if WAG throw £2millions at ATW to run it, the piper should call the tune as to where it travels.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally, I do not see the point in the WAG Express, there is already a regular services along the Welsh Marches Line, and it also calls at Abergavenny but not Hereford or Ludlow. Makes no sense if you ask me!

Hereford is an ATW hub station,makes no sense to call at Chester & Shrewsbury Hubs & leave out Hereford, after all Hereford station is managed by Cardiff.

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest, has anyone got proof of private sector benefits that this expensive train has caused? I mean, its been running for a while now (as has the plane) and I'm not aware of any huge investment in North Wales by any private Cardiff firm (?) - maybe I'm just not looking at the right newspapers...

 

[jones_bangor]

Personally, I do not see the point in the WAG Express, there is already a regular services along the Welsh Marches Line, and it also calls at Abergavenny but not Hereford or Ludlow. Makes no sense if you ask me!

Think of it as a "luxury" supplement!

 

[TDK]

When WAG1 started a path was found to run it via Wrexham, but ATW wanted it via Crewe for revenue. The path was found by WCBCs rail expert David Bithel.
IWJ should have dictated the route, not be told which way by ATW
I agree with LNW, the vast majority boarding at Chester get off at Crewe. or did on Nov 3rd. My colleagues confirm this on other days.

The path was there but the run round time at Chester would have scuppered it unless it started 25 minutes earlier from HHD as ATW did not want to top and tail (cost) or cut out Crewe (cost) the WG went with what the railway experts (??) told them

 

[jones_bangor]

The path was there but the run round time at Chester would have scuppered it unless it started 25 minutes earlier from HHD as ATW did not want to top and tail (cost) or cut out Crewe (cost) the WG went with what the railway experts (??) told them

That path may still be the option then.

Any word on the Marches speed restrictions for 67s??

 

[Greenback]

This is the problem with the WAG Express.

If it were up to the TOC then it wouldn't run (if you want additional capacity over the Marches line, on top of the hourly Manchester service and the bi-hourly Holyhead service then you'd add another Manchester service because that route is the busier one). And you'd stop it at a busy English station like Hereford

But the Politicians call the shots, so they are paying for an uneconomical service. And these are the guys who want more railway powers?

There has been, and never will be any economic benefit. It is a political train, which has been introduced to provide a premium link between North and South Wales, to try and counter the geographical obstacles that make travelling between the two coasts difficult.

I agree in principle with the aim of more frequent and faster services on the route. But I don't think that a premium train is affordable, desirable or appropriate, especially when such facilities are not provided on other routes where demand might be higher.

On the Marches line, I'm not sure whether longer trains or more services would be the best solution.

 

[TDK]

That path may still be the option then.

Any word on the Marches speed restrictions for 67s??

I should have said was there before it was given to VT by ATW so they could run a direct service from Wrexham to London

 

[Drimnagh Road]

The issue here isn't about one stupid train that is used by a few enthusiasts, and a few politicians - the latter who are meant to represent the working class constituents of Wales, yet can justify wasting 8k daily of their constituents money on subsidy so they can enjoy fresh orange juice, a full Welsh Breakfast, three course meal soaked up by Beaujolais wine and desert.

The WAG (government not the train) has been very bad for the people in North Wales. A direct train from Holyhead to Crewe serves the people best, not an alternate Holyhead-Birmingham / Cardiff alternative hourly.

When you see puzzled Birmingham bound people for example, board a direct Birmingham bound train at Bangor, they are told to change at Chester AND Crewe to arrive in Birmingham before the direct train does, you start to ask questions.

In 2001, when the 175s came in - having been ordered for North Wales - customers had them on their hourly service, now they only get them to Cardiff, the Birminghams been in the hands of 12 year older class 158s. As good as the refurbs are, they are no comparisson to a 175 in terms of travel environment.

Chester is good for London connections now that Virgin have the hourly service to London. It is also good for Liverpool, Manchester and points to Shrewsbury but that is it.

Crewe is a change over for much further beyond though, such as Scotland, East Midlands, West Midlands etc.

A Holyhead-Crewe direct service provides excellent interchange opportunities at both Chester AND Crewe, the current service to Chester / Cardiff does not.

On a seperate note, would it not be better business sense to divert the Manchester-Llandudno trains to Bangor, giving the largest town in North Wales a second hourly train? I believe the current diagrams see a unit work Manchester-Llandudno, then a fill in movement to Llandudno Junction and back - carrying fresh air - before returning to Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

The issue here isn't about one stupid train that is used by a few enthusiasts, and a few politicians - the latter who are meant to represent the working class constituents of Wales, yet can justify wasting 8k daily of their constituents money on subsidy so they can enjoy fresh orange juice, a full Welsh Breakfast, three course meal soaked up by Beaujolais wine and desert.

The WAG (government not the train) has been very bad for the people in North Wales. A direct train from Holyhead to Crewe serves the people best, not an alternate Holyhead-Birmingham / Cardiff alternative hourly.

When you see puzzled Birmingham bound people for example, board a direct Birmingham bound train at Bangor, they are told to change at Chester AND Crewe to arrive in Birmingham before the direct train does, you start to ask questions.

In 2001, when the 175s came in - having been ordered for North Wales - customers had them on their hourly service, now they only get them to Cardiff, the Birminghams been in the hands of 12 year older class 158s. As good as the refurbs are, they are no comparisson to a 175 in terms of travel environment.

Chester is good for London connections now that Virgin have the hourly service to London. It is also good for Liverpool, Manchester and points to Shrewsbury but that is it.

Crewe is a change over for much further beyond though, such as Scotland, East Midlands, West Midlands etc.

A Holyhead-Crewe direct service provides excellent interchange opportunities at both Chester AND Crewe, the current service to Chester / Cardiff does not.

On a seperate note, would it not be better business sense to divert the Manchester-Llandudno trains to Bangor, giving the largest town in North Wales a second hourly train? I believe the current diagrams see a unit work Manchester-Llandudno, then a fill in movement to Llandudno Junction and back - carrying fresh air - before returning to Manchester.

Yes, but Crewe is in England, and we don't want to accept that people in North Wales have more need of direct services to/from Crewe/ Liverpool/ Manchester etc (than to Cardiff), do we?

(removes tongue from cheek)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There has been, and never will be any economic benefit. It is a political train, which has been introduced to provide a premium link between North and South Wales, to try and counter the geographical obstacles that make travelling between the two coasts difficult.

I agree in principle with the aim of more frequent and faster services on the route. But I don't think that a premium train is affordable, desirable or appropriate, especially when such facilities are not provided on other routes where demand might be higher.

On the Marches line, I'm not sure whether longer trains or more services would be the best solution.

It used to be one train a day from Holyhead to Cardiff - the bi-hourly "basic" service is already a generous provision without needing an additional service on top of it (especially one with First Class etc, for the £200 tickets to be claimed on expenses)...

I think the best use of any additional DMU would be to make the Marches service half hourly (Cardiff - Shrewsbury), rather than the current gaps. But then there are a lot of competing demands (and obviously nobody in Hereford or Shrewsbury votes for Assembly members at Cardiff Bay).

 

[Michael.Y]

There's one obvious answer:

Build a new railway between Bangor and Pwlhelli, and then again from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Sort all the problems out!

 

[Greenback]

It used to be one train a day from Holyhead to Cardiff - the bi-hourly "basic" service is already a generous provision without needing an additional service on top of it (especially one with First Class etc, for the £200 tickets to be claimed on expenses)...

My sentiments exactly - the bi hourly service satisfies the political ambition to improve the links without the addition of a premier service.

I think the best use of any additional DMU would be to make the Marches service half hourly (Cardiff - Shrewsbury), rather than the current gaps. But then there are a lot of competing demands (and obviously nobody in Hereford or Shrewsbury votes for Assembly members at Cardiff Bay).

One additional traine very second hour, in addition to the bi hourly Holyhead trains, would give a half hourly service to Shrewsbury.

There's one obvious answer:

Build a new railway between Bangor and Pwlhelli, and then again from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Sort all the problems out!

I would (personally speaking) love to see a route that doesn't involve Welsh people having to travel into England to traverse their own country from north to south!

 

[jones_bangor]

There's one obvious answer:

Build a new railway between Bangor and Pwlhelli, and then again from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Sort all the problems out!

lol...sleeper service?...........

 

[anthony263]

A good idea I think woud be to get that line network rail are proposing to re-open in north wales re-opened and have a service along the north wales coast to Crewe.

The current 2 hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service is more than enough and if there is going to be some extra services between Cardiff & Shrewsbury then perhaps run these to Manchester via Wrexham.

 

[merlodlliw]

To Drimnagh Road.

Some may like to think Bangor is the largest town in North Wales,but it is not,largest on the coast perhaps is what you meant but Wrexham is by far the largest town in North Wales & in need of urgent extra rail capacity

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Think of it as a "luxury" supplement!

no answer to that in a recession.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would (personally speaking) love to see a route that doesn't involve Welsh people having to travel into England to traverse their own country from north to south! [/QUOTE] Greenback

Try WAGAIR that was Plaid leader IWJ aspiration,another £multi million political taxi.

Bob

 

[ValleyLines142]

The current 2 hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service is more than enough and if there is going to be some extra services between Cardiff & Shrewsbury then perhaps run these to Manchester via Wrexham.

The only problem running this service via Wrexham is that it's quite diverting. 1H98 the 2109 Birmingham International to Manchester Piccadilly (a daily working on that particular service pattern) takes three and a half hours because it goes via Shrewsbury and Wrexham!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm a regular on 1V51 and its a very busy train into Hereford in the morning due to a private school that large numbers of pupils go to to from Ludlow and Leominster and FE College students. The first passengers are going through the barriers at Hereford when theirs still a queue at the bottom of the staircase on the other side of the 4 tracks.

It leaves Shrewsbury at 0719 and is usually a 3 car 175. It connects with the 0514 from Aberystwyth, WAG 1 & WAG 2 don't connect with the Cambrian. I see more people using this train for business purposes from north (and south) of Shrewsbury to go to Cardiff than I hear of on WAG 1 or WAG 2. The connections at Shrewsbury from the Cambrian are excellent southwards down the Marches and on the return, however I'm painfully aware that the numbers doing so are very small - I've been doing it for 10 years plus now- theirs more demand for better connections to Crewe, Manchester, Wrexham and Chester from the Cambrian than there is to Cardiff.

 

[TDK]

The problem here is the ATW are the Welsh franchise, so, encrouching on other companies fare extraction by running into Crewe and on to Birmingham on a regular basis will never get the ORR approval. ATW make most of their money with trains that enter England. ATW is a branch line franchise and will remain that way and now the Welsh railway system is independant from the UK I cannot see any paths being granted for what some of you are proposing. As for the premier service this needs to be put into perspective with the Welsh public on how much it costs and what could be done with the money to improve the general passengers travelling requirements. To be honest this country will never have a good service in Wales all the time it is funded by the left wing selfish WAG

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's one obvious answer:

Build a new railway between Bangor and Pwlhelli, and then again from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen.

Sort all the problems out!

I see Aberystwyth - Carmarthen re-opening as important for linking Aberystwyth to Cardiff, and not much good for traversing Wales north-south (at least, not Cardiff - Bangor as WAG express does). For Cardiff - Bangor, if you can figure out how to path two or three LHCS express services up to Merthyr Tydfil quickly, I'd suggest re-opening / new lines Merthyr - Brecon - Newtown and Porthmadog (not Pwlhelli, to make the route more direct) - Bangor and Welshpool - Oswestry - Gobowen too, making a 90mph Y-network as the Welsh version of England's HS2 Y-network.

I'd still not have more than three (all express) through trains a day from Cardiff though, must of the time there'd be an hourly all-stations EMU from Cardiff to Brecon (as part of the ValleyLines) and an hourly service Brecon to Newtown, extending in alternate hours to Bangor and Wrexham.

If there is sufficent stock to divert the two-hourly Cardiff - Holyheads to run to Crewe, Liverpool or Manchester from Chester instead of reversing there then I'd say do that and have Holyhead - Cardiff served only by two or three LHCS express services each way (serving hot meals, but prefrablly without an expensive chef).

 

[jones_bangor]

To be honest this country will never have a good service in Wales all the time it is funded by the left wing selfish WAG

The WAG Express services HAVE improved travel provision in Wales, like it or not.

I would argue that the right wing mob in Westminster are the true masters of self interest!!

The issue with the connectivity at Crewe arose because of the need to serve Wrexham and the West Coast modernisation, 15 years ago the class 37s would serve Crewe from Holyhead / Bangor, together with Birmingham services which went via Crewe and WCML. Virgin Trains have obviously upped their service a bit, so there has been a bit of give and take...

One way to improve the service from the coast to Birmingham would be improve linespeed between Gobowen and Shrewsbury, that really could knock time off the journey.

The current Birmingham - Holyhead service really is a "slow" as opposed to the "semi-fast/express" that was displaced.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Think of it as a "luxury" supplement!

I certainly don't see it as a ''luxury'' supplement! I find the 175s nicer personally. Then again I haven't been on the WAG so can't say! I still think it beggars belief that it doesn't stop at Hereford but that's another thing...