W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[bb21]

To me the best solution to this is large flasks of good-quality filter coffee made before loading them onto the train. All "proper coffee machines" on trains seem to have achieved is mediocre coffee using often UHT milk (vile) because they are not cleaned properly, as well as slowing down the buffet service really badly.

Serve that from a trolley at a reasonable price and that *is* an improvement, IMO.

It's all well and good in theory, but why is no one doing it? Perhaps it is difficult to control the level of stock required as filter coffee, once made, has to be sold within a certain amount of time, and demand can fluctuate quite a lot?

Not being a frequent user of those fGW trains with buffets, I'll believe you...but I'm not convinced this is universally the case on all TOCs (at least not any more than just pressing the clean button, which isn't always enough).

But in any case my other views on it stand - coffee that takes a minute or more to make is practical in a coffee shop which typically has 3-4 people serving, not so much at a single-manned buffet car where people want to get back to their seat before their bag gets nicked.

The only ones that use proper coffee machines AFAIK are FGW, HT and GC. I am yet to be disappointed, although FGW ones seem to break down quite often on my travels.

 

[Busaholic]

Do you take the recommended breaks of 15 mins after every two hours of driving? As the thread subject is centred on safety, this could be relevant. If your passenger drives, of course that's different.

I detest modern driving and I think most people do, so comfort is also relevant.

Because I don't have to do very much much 'serious' driving these days and, given where I live and choose to travel to, I quite enjoy driving. Age has caught up with me to the extent that I have to stop every two hours or so for a comfort break, but only one or two of these is usually more than five minutes and in that one I always have an espresso coffee and walk around too. Have been fortunate enough to drive well over half a million miles so far, four minor shunts, one attributable to me, in that time. Did fall asleep for a few seconds when driving about thirty years ago and almost 'bought it' (a day's work. followed by badminton, probably a half of beer then 40 minute drive home - taught me a lesson.)

No, in common with most drivers I can't say I never exceed 70 mph on a motorway or dual carriageway, but I'm comparing like with like i.e. the time actually spent on a train as against a drive. If I factor in getting to and from stations then the train times are de minimis too. Also, I've run down the platform at Paddington with luggage as the whistle is blowing, so time spent settling on the train has to be factored in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's all well and good in theory, but why is no one doing it? Perhaps it is difficult to control the level of stock required as filter coffee, once made, has to be sold within a certain amount of time, and demand can fluctuate quite a lot?

I don't think it's any more of an issue than carrying the flasks of water which go cold. Filter can be kept for a reasonable amount of time before it tastes bad.

 

[bnm]

From the BBC:

RMT to decide on future rail strikes after rejecting FGW offer

A union representing rail workers has said it will decide on future strike dates after rejecting the latest offer by First Great Western (FGW).

High-speed services between London, the West of England and Wales were hit last week when about 2,000 Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) members walked out.

The dispute is over concerns guards and buffet cars will be disposed of on new Hitachi Inter City Express trains.

The RMT said "core issues remain unresolved" in FGW's revised offer.

The new trains are set to run on the Great Western main line from 2017.

'Lack of assurance'

FGW said it had "made very clear" its "commitments on job security and the customer experience".

But one of the sticking points is that FGW wants drivers to have control over doors, instead of the guards who are currently in charge of this role.

The RMT said this was "a clear dilution of the important safety role of the guard and contrary to RMT policy".

The union said a "lack of assurance" on protecting engineering jobs and keeping the buffet car facilities were also issues.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said: "Despite the media spin played out by the company yesterday the reality of the offer now received by the union falls well short of what is required in the key areas of jobs, services and safety for us to reach an agreement. As a result we will now be meeting with our sister unions to discuss the campaign strategy and RMT's executive will be deciding on future strike dates next week."

The new trains are being introduced under the Intercity Express Programme on routes between London Paddington and Oxford, Bristol and South Wales.

To comply with forum rules I have to pass comment when posting a news item.

The belligerents remain belligerent. However I'm hopeful that more members will show up for work each time a strike is called, slowly undermining the vocal minority.

 

[jimm]

The CCTV will go off as soon as the train starts moving so cannot see anyone running alongside the train.

And your evidence for this statement is what? Do you know the detailed specification for the CCTV kit on these trains? I'm guessing you don't, so you have no idea, do you?

Never mind that it would be pretty dumb for the CCTV to be off while the train is moving alongside a platform whether the doors are driver or guard operated - I have a funny feeling someone will probably have managed to work that out already and the system will be specified to shut off at an appropriate point, such as when the back of the train is off the platform.

 

[Dave1987]

From the BBC:



To comply with forum rules I have to pass comment when posting a news item.

The belligerents remain belligerent. However I'm hopeful that more members will show up for work each time a strike is called, slowly undermining the vocal minority.

Hopefully you will be disappointed, hopefully the strike is well adhered to. Those who break the strike will be out of a job in a few years which they probably don't realise. The public will be more and more on at FGW mngt as people do not strike repeatedly in the modern world without having serious reasons to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And your evidence for this statement is what? Do you know the detailed specification for the CCTV kit on these trains? I'm guessing you don't, so you have no idea, do you?

It is the usual way CCTV for DOO works, on the principle that once moving the driver should be looking ahead at the line.

Other countries disagree, though - Switzerland uses rear view mirrors which stay open for a short while after departure, whereas it seems usual for German drivers to apply power then stick their head out of the window and look back. So maybe leaving it on until the train is fully out of the platform might actually be a good idea. After all, road vehicle drivers seem to be able to decide for themselves when looking in their mirrors is a good[1] idea.

[1] Not enough, of course - but I don't hear of accidents caused by people *looking* in their mirror once too many.

 

[Dave1987]

And your evidence for this statement is what? Do you know the detailed specification for the CCTV kit on these trains? I'm guessing you don't, so you have no idea, do you?

Never mind that it would be pretty dumb for the CCTV to be off while the train is moving alongside a platform whether the doors are driver or guard operated - I have a funny feeling someone will probably have managed to work that out already and the system will be specified to shut off at an appropriate point, such as when the back of the train is off the platform.

If the CCTV is on the platform it is static. If the CCTV is in cab then the drivers attention should be on his/her job I.e driving the bloody train. Would you rather the driver be looking at the CCTV rather than checking a locally monitored crossing is clear?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the CCTV is on the platform it is static. If the CCTV is in cab then the drivers attention should be on his/her job I.e driving the bloody train. Would you rather the driver be looking at the CCTV rather than checking a locally monitored crossing is clear?

Particularly given the approaches taken in other countries, I find that rather too binary an approach. He should be predominantly looking ahead, but having the opportunity to look back as well if he feels it appropriate would seem a sensible addition.

 

[bb21]

I don't think it's any more of an issue than carrying the flasks of water which go cold. Filter can be kept for a reasonable amount of time before it tastes bad.

So why is no one doing it? It would be infinitely better than the junk that gets served up on many trains atm.

Obviously water is not an issue if wasted, would companies be so willing to waste unsold coffee?

 

[timbo58]

There are lots of stations akin to Kemble (i.e. most on the Hereford via Worcester & Oxford line) where there are no despatch staff nor any likelihood there ever will be.

Also even those stations that have despatch staff -are unmanned at sometimes the very occasions they will be most needed on the moment the driver has checked CCTV for the last time and committed him/her self by setting off- i.e. late at nights, during periods of disruption or perhaps when the platform staff that are there are distracted by something else (it does happen you know).

On all these occasions passengers on the platform are not as well served safety wise as those where a guard is monitoring and controlling despatch.

The new trains have the advantage of having no handles or droplight however but the very fact that it would be impossible to join/leave the train at this point isn't going to stop the determined/terminally stupid/drunk/desperate person from trying to do so and endangering themselves.

It didn't stop people when 180's were introduced and it won't stop them now either and there are no end of tales like Flamingos (with CCTV evidence to back it up) where passengers have seriously endangered themselves in this manner.

Statistically there may be little to prove a safety case for keeping guards just for these reasons but the lack of recorded accidents doesn't mean the potential doesn't exist or it wouldn't happen.

On the subject of catering trolleys, whilst I thought these were a great idea in 1st on most services and in standard on a selected few they can't replace a buffet whether thats one that is only a buffet or one that can make & supply freshly cooked chef food (sadly even I accept that restaurants have 'had their day'*).

However 'Intercity' ran trolleys for years with a hot water urn on board (and very heavy they were too!) these trolleys ran through standard and up to 1st and then back through standard again as many times as the steward (or senior steward) had the energy to pull it and as long as the water held out typically.

Haven't FGW got any figures for the income these made -surely they can do some basic maths and work out whether a buffet and a trolley or one or the other is more cost effective?

I think it's a deeper reason that that though -FG have to increase seating capacity so they are trying to do this by stopping the space being used elsewhere, it isn't about whether they think passengers are better served catering wise it's all about cynically getting repeated licenses to run the franchise, they don't give a toss about the staff, the passengers or the railway as a whole as long as those in power aren't considering going elsewhere with their precious franchise.

*Restaurants are one of the trump reasons to take a long train journey, I very fondly remember very proudly doing my training at Euston and putting that silly dicky bow on and doing silver service at 125mph, hard work, hot work and long work but good tips & very happy customers. Happy days.

 

[jimm]

If the CCTV is on the platform it is static. If the CCTV is in cab then the drivers attention should be on his/her job I.e driving the bloody train. Would you rather the driver be looking at the CCTV rather than checking a locally monitored crossing is clear?

I know, let's bring back the secondman in the cab, so he can monitor the CCTV and look after a boiler to produce your cup of coffee at the perfect temperature

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why is no one doing it? It would be infinitely better than the junk that gets served up on many trains atm.

DB do it. In the UK, though, I guess it's simply that trolley services are usually run on a shoestring budget, so catering-size instant coffee is cheaper. It's more the kind of thing I would expect on a trolley service that was brought in to replace a quality buffet - like fGW.

 

[bb21]

DB do it. In the UK, though, I guess it's simply that trolley services are usually run on a shoestring budget, so catering-size instant coffee is cheaper. It's more the kind of thing I would expect on a trolley service that was brought in to replace a quality buffet - like fGW.

Only time will tell. I am not confident, given the track record of the industry, but I guess we won't know for sure.

 

[FordFocus]

As soon as the train is in motion, the CCTV will turn off so I don't buy that's safer at all. Read an ASLEF document that researched various speeds and it was either 3mph or 3kph they turned off.

The charter with ASLEF and recent AAD meetings stated they won't sign up for anymore DOO.

 

[Flamingo]

Hopefully you will be disappointed, hopefully the strike is well adhered to. Those who break the strike will be out of a job in a few years which they probably don't realise. The public will be more and more on at FGW mngt as people do not strike repeatedly in the modern world without having serious reasons to do so.

The number of cases I have heard of people breaking the strike are single figures. I have heard of many many more cases of people joining the RMT that prior to the ballot were not RMT members, but the initial letter from management, coupled with the "reassurances" given at "Question and Answer" sessions were enough to convince them to join.

The level of support for this strike was unprecidented. I've certainly never seen anything like it since I joined the railway, and colleagues who have been here much longer than me have said the same. One telling thing is that of my colleagues on the picket line, only one of them had ever been on a picket line before - and that was during the Miners Strike, long before he came tothe railway!

The two-day strike cost me and my colleagues anything up to £300+ each. Does anybody really think that we are doing that on a whim, or because we just fancied sitting outside a railway station for six or eight hours? (I know some of you might, but I personally don't!). But, as my wife said, "You've no choice, it's a bigger issue than that". I'm just hoping I won't have any unexpected bills in August or September.

The company is rushing out press releases, but they have not made any serious efforts to address the issues of DOO, On-Train Guards, and Catering. This dispute is showing no signs of settling yet, and it's not because the staff want it. Well polished press releases and carefully worded letters have not done anything to remove the feeling that the company are not negociating in good faith, and will stitch us up like kippers. I think that's the most annoying thing about this dispute, that we all feel forced into it.

 

[455driver]

Sandwiches, bottled beer, wines, fizzy soft drinks, crisps and confectionary are all cheaper on CrossCountry compared to FGW.

Stock levels are excellent, with regular replenishment rn route. No reason why FGW won't do similar with their trolley offering.

Last time I travelled on XC the Steward made an announcement about the bacon butties so I went to get one, I was 2nd in the queue and the bloke in front of me bought all 3, yep there only 3 bacon sandwiches available!

I always find XC catering rather poor but I still buy it although it could be much better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fully agree.

The CCTV will go off as soon as the train starts moving so cannot see anyone running alongside the train.

The time saving is very minimal that FGW mention and has no relevance to the argument for DOO, especially for limited stop intercity services.

The trolley will go down the CrossCountry route of an overpriced, awful selection.

The CCTV will remain on as long as any part of the train is in the platform and the driver is expected to watch the whole train out even though the train could be doing up to 30mph before the back end clears the platform!

If this is such a good idea why not put some monitors up at the Guards panels and let them watch the train out, that way the driver can get on with driving!

The time savings are comparing DOO IEPs with slam door HSTs, not DOO IEPs with crew operated IEPs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As soon as the train is in motion, the CCTV will turn off so I don't buy that's safer at all. Read an ASLEF document that researched various speeds and it was either 3mph or 3kph they turned off.

The charter with ASLEF and recent AAD meetings stated they won't sign up for anymore DOO.

It is 5kph (or 3mph) on current DOO trains but on the IEPs it is proposed that it will stay on until the whole train has left the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is such a good idea why not put some monitors up at the Guards panels and let them watch the train out, that way the driver can get on with driving!

That, if guards will[1] not be dispatching from doors with droplights, sounds like a very good idea.

[1] Assuming the unions win, which I suspect they will if they are willing to take the hit of a very sustained process of action.

 

[Jonfun]

What's wrong with a small buffet that can store more stock, have a proper coffee machine, grill and a fridge?

There isn't room on a Voyager. Even when they had the buffets, from memory they weren't exactly what you could describe as spacious - I'd be surprised if you could store more stock in them than in the current catering areas. Whether the right amount of the right stuff is being brought to the train in the first place, I think is more likely to be the problem... "#ComputerSaysNo"

 

[BestWestern]

I can do anecdotes too. Last time I was on CrossCrountry there was a choice of two cold sandwiches, two hot items, a chilled beer was fetched, and the chocolate was fine.

Uh huh. And how many coaches did your XC train have? Around nine or ten was it, as per IEP? Or Perhaps it was four?! Whilst admittedly it isn't the end of the world, one standard class trolley on a train with six or seven std class coaches is only ever going to be crap. Sorry.

 

[Pumbaa]

To me the best solution to this is large flasks of good-quality filter coffee made before loading them onto the train. All "proper coffee machines" on trains seem to have achieved is mediocre coffee using often UHT milk (vile) because they are not cleaned properly, as well as slowing down the buffet service really badly.

Serve that from a trolley at a reasonable price and that *is* an improvement, IMO.

Chiltern serve fresh filter coffee on their trolleys. I was pleasantly surprised. It's very reasonably priced, was still hot an hour into the journey, and tasted good too.

And there was enough left for a second cup when the trolley came back the other way!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern serve fresh filter coffee on their trolleys. I was pleasantly surprised. It's very reasonably priced, was still hot an hour into the journey, and tasted good too.

And there was enough left for a second cup when the trolley came back the other way!

So, loco-hauled regional express services, and now proper fresh coffee on board. Might as well just get the red paint out now!

 

[bb21]

Chiltern serve fresh filter coffee on their trolleys. I was pleasantly surprised. It's very reasonably priced, was still hot an hour into the journey, and tasted good too.

And there was enough left for a second cup when the trolley came back the other way!

I have actually had it once, and thought it was half-decent, not great but drinkable, especially considering the other junk trolleys serve. That was about 2/3 years ago. That was my only experience of Chiltern serving coffee on a unit despite regularly travelling with them.

Then on a trip a few months later, I was told by the guard they had stopped serving coffee except on Silver sets.

Good to know that they are still doing it. Shame that the other operators prefer to stick with junk.

 

[FordFocus]

The CCTV will remain on as long as any part of the train is in the platform and the driver is expected to watch the whole train out even though the train could be doing up to 30mph before the back end clears the platform!

If this is such a good idea why not put some monitors up at the Guards panels and let them watch the train out, that way the driver can get on with driving!

30mph???? that's utter madness The railway are allegedly trying to reduce distractions to drivers to stop incidents like SPADs so they've done this amongst other things... :roll:

Indeed but they expect guards to be constantly checking tickets for every last penny in the meantime someone has fallen under the train or is caught in a door because the driver hasn't noticed it on his DOO CCTV screen. I don't think that £10 excess will pay for FGW legal fees somehow.

The time savings are comparing DOO IEPs with slam door HSTs, not DOO IEPs with crew operated IEPs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It is 5kph (or 3mph) on current DOO trains but on the IEPs it is proposed that it will stay on until the whole train has left the platform.

That will get kicked out.

 

[Carlisle]

The company is rushing out press releases, but they have not made any serious efforts to address the issues of DOO, On-Train Guards, and Catering. .

Yes but it clearly states FGW are aiming to have a fully qualified guard on every IEP in passenger service and retain some buffets. Also as thiey replace some current Turbo services this means more guards.not less, so what's the union so unhappy with? is it genuinely concerned about getting a better deal/garuntees on certain issues or is the real agenda to hang on and hope all changes are scrapped. We urgently need more honesty and commitment from both sides if we want a settlement soon

 

[bb21]

Yes but it clearly states FGW are aiming to have a fully qualified guard on every IEP in passenger service and retain some buffets,and as thiey replace some current Turbo services this will mean some more guards.not less, so what's the union still so unhappy with, is it genuinely concerned about getting a better deal on certain issues or holding out in the hope eventually all plans will be withdrawn

Where were you for the last 1200 posts?

 

[455driver]

Yes but it clearly states FGW are aiming to have a fully qualified guard on every IEP in passenger service and retain some buffets,and as thiey replace some current Turbo services this will mean some more guards.not less, so what's the union still so unhappy with, is it genuinely concerned about getting a better deal on certain issues or holding out in the hope eventually all plans will be withdrawn

FGW are stating that every IEP will have a TM diagrammed, but they reserve the right to run without one when necessary.

 

[FordFocus]

Where were you for the last 1200 posts?

+1


No, have a +10


The sticking point is TMs not doing door duties and the possibility of trains been able to run DOO without one.

The other point is the downgrade of catering facilities from a buffet to a trolley.

 

[Flamingo]

Yes but it clearly states FGW are aiming to have a fully qualified guard on every IEP in passenger service and retain some buffets. Also as thiey replace some current Turbo services this means more guards.not less, so what's the union so unhappy with? is it genuinely concerned about getting a better deal/garuntees on certain issues or is the real agenda to hang on and hope all changes are scrapped. We urgently need more honesty and commitment from both sides if we want a settlement soon

Where were you for the last 1200 posts?

What he said ^^^

The devil is in the detail, and the details are unbelievebly vauge. The commitment is to ROSTER a guard on each service (not HAVE a guard on each service). This is only for the current franchise (just over four years).

FGW have told staff they will run a train without a guard "in disruption" if "a guard is not available", with no definition of what either mean. The unions are insisting that passenger safety requires a guard on the train if the wheels are turning. Also, Drivers are refusing (so far) to accept this.

Catering is being downgraded to a trolley for up to nine carriages with a large increase in passenger capacity. This is a huge reduction in quality and customer service. It has been tried before unsuccesfully about four years ago. It was, without putting too fine a point on it, a disaster. Hands up everybody who remembers those trains (2+7).

FGW (who are claiming that a ballot with a 60% turn-out with 90% against the proposed changes is unrepresentative) are claiming that 90% of passengers support this according to their figures. Nobody I have spoken to have any idea how, when, or what passengers were asked, or how many. FGW are also teling us that anyway it is too late to change the trains as they have already been ordered (without any staff consultation).

 

[yorkie]

Yes but it clearly states FGW are aiming to have a fully qualified guard on every IEP in passenger service and retain some buffets. Also as thiey replace some current Turbo services this means more guards.not less, so what's the union so unhappy with? is it genuinely concerned about getting a better deal/garuntees on certain issues or is the real agenda to hang on and hope all changes are scrapped. We urgently need more honesty and commitment from both sides if we want a settlement soon

We are going round and round in circles, they would not be Guards as the trains will be Driver Only Operation (DOO). DOO means exactly that; driver only operation so a Guard is not necessary and they could run with just a driver. This method of operation can be seen on Scotrail Strathclyde electrics (which do not have Guards but have highly visible staff patrolling the trains doing customer service stuff but who do not get involved in the operation of the train). In practice, as you say there will be more staff, but the existing staff are wanting to be on the same conditions and don't want the trains to be able to run without them. This has all been discussed at length many times (and not just in this thread). We will continue to go round and round in circles and will never reach consensus on this matter. Some people like the Strathclyde model, some don't.