W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[SWTH]

Exactly. Until FGW define precisely under what circumstances a guard would be considered 'unavailable' (something that FGW have been unwilling to discuss) the majority of sensible people will continue to regard the idea as nothing less than a way of pushing DOO in via the back door.

I'm also very disappointed in the attitudes of some here on this forum, who seem to either have an axe to grind over some personal issue or simply don't care about the implications of these proposals.

FGW have also repeatedly claimed that as their IEP/SETs are already under construction, the spec cannot be changed. Interesting statement, given that the factory at Newton Aycliffe hasn't been finished yet.

 

[JamesT]

FGW have also repeatedly claimed that as their IEP/SETs are already under construction, the spec cannot be changed. Interesting statement, given that the factory at Newton Aycliffe hasn't been finished yet.

According to http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...sh-inter-city-fleet-renewal-gathers-pace.html the first few production units are being built in Japan.

 

[SWTH]

The first ten plus the three prototypes are. But that does not preclude a change in spec to ones that have not been built yet (i.e. the majority of the fleet), and according to the article production at Newton Aycliffe is not intended to start until mid-2016.

 

[Starmill]

And let's not forget taking the pro rata cost of depreciation, insurance, road tax, servicing, etc. into account.

Which is exactly what all car owners do

 

[Temple Meads]

And regardless of whether the units are built yet or not, isn't it part of the specification that they can run DOO or with full guard operation? (plus the Voyager style mode)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

And regardless of whether the units are built yet or not, isn't it part of the specification that they can run DOO or with full guard operation? (plus the Voyager style mode)

Won't all the panels/controls for both guard operation and DOO all be installed anyway as standard features and blanked off as appropriate?

 

[JamesT]

Isn't the fixing of the spec more to do with the lack of buffet car, rather than DOO? So they'd have to redo the first 10 to add the buffet facilities, or end up with 1/6 of their fleet different from the rest.

 

[jimm]

Press statement from FGW issued yesterday

First Great Western looks forward to hearing from the RMT, having made a revised offer about the introduction of Super Express Trains during talks on Tuesday aimed at resolving the dispute.

A First Great Western spokesman said: "We have moved significantly in every area, making sure we can run these trains in the best possible way for customers, while giving the RMT clear assurances on job security and safety. We are hoping the RMT will recognise our proposal, which seeks to bridge the gap in views, will be enough to settle this dispute.

"We don't believe there are any fundamental differences of opinion between us and the RMT on issues relating to engineering, station and dispatch staff - and have even paved the way to ensure a fully qualified guard to be on every SET in passenger service, and for buffet cars to remain in service on some routes.

"The key issue that remains is that we want the driver to close the doors - which is key to our ability to run the faster, more frequent services, customers should expect from a 21st Century railway. We also believe the driver, with CCTV screens will have a far better view of the train than anyone else to ensure safe dispatch from each station.

"To think that over 2,000 staff could be asked to take more strike action and further inconvenience our customers when all but one of the issues has been dealt with just doesn't make sense." First Great Western looks forward to the RMT's response following full consideration of the proposals.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/2015/july/fgw-waiting-for-rmt-response

Story based around the statement from the Swindon Advertiser

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/...ed__offer_made_by_First_Great_Western_to_RMT/

 

[Dave1987]

First Great Western looks forward to hearing from the RMT, having made a revised offer about the introduction of Super Express Trains during talks on Tuesday aimed at resolving the dispute.

A First Great Western spokesman said: "We have moved significantly in every area, making sure we can run these trains in the best possible way for customers, while giving the RMT clear assurances on job security and safety. We are hoping the RMT will recognise our proposal, which seeks to bridge the gap in views, will be enough to settle this dispute.

"We don't believe there are any fundamental differences of opinion between us and the RMT on issues relating to engineering, station and dispatch staff - and have even paved the way to ensure a fully qualified guard to be on every SET in passenger service, and for buffet cars to remain in service on some routes.

"The key issue that remains is that we want the driver to close the doors - which is key to our ability to run the faster, more frequent services, customers should expect from a 21st Century railway. We also believe the driver, with CCTV screens will have a far better view of the train than anyone else to ensure safe dispatch from each station.

"To think that over 2,000 staff could be asked to take more strike action and further inconvenience our customers when all but one of the issues has been dealt with just doesn't make sense." First Great Western looks forward to the RMT's response following full consideration of the proposals.

This is complete and utter rubbish! Some CCTV screens you can barely see the whole length of your train! No safer way of dispatch than having a guard. Also notice the FGW say buffet provision on "some" services. In other words there will be mildly warm tea/coffee and associated rubbish on a trolley until its scrapped. No more bacon butties and nice hot cup of coffee any longer.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how these screens can see/hear the drunks I have to contend with every Saturday running for the train at the last minute. They don't appear to show the whole platform, only the edge and the train!

 

[jimm]

This is complete and utter rubbish! Some CCTV screens you can barely see the whole length of your train! No safer way of dispatch than having a guard. Also notice the FGW say buffet provision on "some" services. In other words there will be mildly warm tea/coffee and associated rubbish on a trolley until its scrapped. No more bacon butties and nice hot cup of coffee any longer.

So platform dispatchers working in conjunction with drivers, as practised in the Thames Valley for Turbo operations since 1993, aren't safe then? I haven't seen any suggestion that FGW is planning to get rid of platform dispatchers at the sorts of major stations to be served by IEPs and last-minute runners aren't a major feature of life at the smaller stations out in the Cotswolds where the train crew handles dispatch.

Since when has a buffet not been a buffet? I take it that reference is actually to having buffets on either retained HSTs or the proposed AT300s for the West Country - not a trolley. And I wasn't aware that buffets necessarily offered a cordon bleu-style alternative to what is sold from trolleys, which always looks much the same sort of stuff to me. XC will deliver bacon butties to your seat if you order from the trolley steward and FGW has made statements that indicate they would offer something similar on IEPs. Most people use trains to get somewhere, not because of the quality of the bacon (which isn't exactly finest organic anyway) or how scalding the coffee is.

 

[SWTH]

Isn't the fixing of the spec more to do with the lack of buffet car, rather than DOO? So they'd have to redo the first 10 to add the buffet facilities, or end up with 1/6 of their fleet different from the rest.

True, but we already have that with HSTs (some micro-buffet, some full buffet and some full buffet with kitchen for Pullman services). The IEP/SETs already support guard operation of the doors, it's just that FGW would prefer to suggest otherwise.

 

[notadriver]

The Javelins currently operate with an on board manager who MUST be on board every train in passenger service (or it gets cancelled). The driver does the doors via CCTV. Provided guards keep their terms and conditions and have to be aboard every service - perhaps this is the way to go?

 

[craigybagel]

So platform dispatchers working in conjunction with drivers, as practised in the Thames Valley for Turbo operations since 1993, aren't safe then? I haven't seen any suggestion that FGW is planning to get rid of platform dispatchers at the sorts of major stations to be served by IEPs and last-minute runners aren't a major feature of life at the smaller stations out in the Cotswolds where the train crew handles dispatch.

Last minute runners are a feature EVERYWHERE. Even at request stops on a line with minimal service, they still happen. Not often, its true, but they happen. The first time I had to do an emergency stop on the platform after we set off was at an unmanned station that sees a 2 hourly service during the day. I was able to see the situation develop and get the train stopped far quicker than a driver would have been able to via CCTV, and that was on a train without droplights!

Platform dispatchers plus drivers, perfectly safe. Driver only dispatch, much less safe. And for many stations these trains will serve, that will be the case.

 

[Flamingo]

One of the closest near-misses I had was with a runner at Kemble (part-time manned quiet Cotswold station). And if I hadn't had the option of having my head out the window, so I was able to see her and give a stop, she'd have been under, as she appeared in the station enterance after the train started moving, grabbing the side of the train (she'd left something on the train). She wouldn't let go of the handle either...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to someone I spoke to in the RMT, FGW refused to discuss this at all until the new franchise was confirmed, as "That'll be a new company, nothing to do with us". Now they are saying "They were ordered by the previous company, this is a new franchise, nothing to do with us"...

 

[Dave1987]

One of the closest near-misses I had was with a runner at Kemble (part-time manned quiet Cotswold station). And if I hadn't had the option of having my head out the window, so I was able to see her and give a stop, she'd have been under, as she appeared in the station enterance after the train started moving, grabbing the side of the train (she'd left something on the train). She wouldn't let go of the handle either...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to someone I spoke to in the RMT, FGW refused to discuss this at all until the new franchise was confirmed, as "That'll be a new company, nothing to do with us". Now they are saying "They were ordered by the previous company, this is a new franchise, nothing to do with us"...

I really hope you guys on GW stick to your guns on this one. It's FGW mgts problem if they have stipulated they want the layout to be so they can operate DOO without asking the staff and the unions.

 

[Flamingo]

I really hope you guys on GW stick to your guns on this one. It's FGW mgts problem if they have stipulated they want the layout to be so they can operate DOO without asking the staff and the unions.

I think we will be...

 

[FordFocus]

This is complete and utter rubbish! Some CCTV screens you can barely see the whole length of your train! No safer way of dispatch than having a guard. Also notice the FGW say buffet provision on "some" services. In other words there will be mildly warm tea/coffee and associated rubbish on a trolley until its scrapped. No more bacon butties and nice hot cup of coffee any longer.

Fully agree.

The CCTV will go off as soon as the train starts moving so cannot see anyone running alongside the train.

The time saving is very minimal that FGW mention and has no relevance to the argument for DOO, especially for limited stop intercity services.

The trolley will go down the CrossCountry route of an overpriced, awful selection.

 

[bnm]

Sandwiches, bottled beer, wines, fizzy soft drinks, crisps and confectionary are all cheaper on CrossCountry compared to FGW.

Stock levels are excellent, with regular replenishment rn route. No reason why FGW won't do similar with their trolley offering.

 

[FordFocus]

Last time I travelled on XC there was only one sandwich remaining, lack of beer selection and the chocolate was semi melted.

What's wrong with a small buffet that can store more stock, have a proper coffee machine, grill and a fridge?

 

[bnm]

Last time I travelled on XC there was only one sandwich remaining, lack of beer selection and the chocolate was semi melted.

I can do anecdotes too. Last time I was on CrossCrountry there was a choice of two cold sandwiches, two hot items, a chilled beer was fetched, and the chocolate was fine.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I can do anecdotes too. Last time I was on CrossCrountry there was a choice of two cold sandwiches, two hot items, a chilled beer was fetched, and the chocolate was fine.

Yet they consistently score very poorly for on board catering. Bit strange for such an excellent offering, don't you think?

XC catering is pants. I won't even buy a coffee from the trolley any more. I used to when it was the shop. Not any more. Unless they could offer Azera and genuine hot water. I might buy then. But even then, it's still no great alternative to freshlyground coffee from a machine. The current coffee from the buffets is rather good. I personally buy it myself. God knows what their replacement will be...

 

[Dave1987]

Yet they consistently score very poorly for on board catering. Bit strange for such an excellent offering, don't you think?

XC catering is pants. I won't even buy a coffee from the trolley any more. I used to when it was the shop. Not any more. Unless they could offer Azera and genuine hot water. I might buy then. But even then, it's still no great alternative to freshlyground coffee from a machine. The current coffee from the buffets is rather good. I personally buy it myself. God knows what their replacement will be...

Indeed from a trolley the water is usually warm and not hot. A small buffet with a proper coffee machine would be great and well received. Not a cup of instant coffee with warm water from a trolley. But of course that would take up around 4 seats and detract from the headline figures the politicians and FGW mngt want to band around.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Indeed from a trolley the water is usually warm and not hot. A small buffet with a proper coffee machine would be great and well received. Not a cup of instant coffee with warm water from a trolley. But of course that would take up around 4 seats and detract from the headline figures the politicians and FGW mngt want to band around.

What is most perplexing is that the coffee is one of the biggest sellers from the Buffet, yet they keep saying it's losing money. So, in order to get it to make money and 'improve the service standards to modern standards' we will be having instant coffee from a sachet? Great... forgive me for being unimpressed.

 

[bb21]

Not sure about serving proper coffee losing money, although I can imagine charging £2.20 for a cup of instant junk making much more profit than £2.50 for a proper cup from the machine.

 

[Flamingo]

I think it's a given that none of the changes proposed by FGW are about improving standards or quality...

 

[Dave1987]

It is incredible how they can call serving instant coffee from a trolley with warm water an "improvement". Having a micro buffet with a proper coffee machine and doing an at seat service by taking orders is fine. That way people who don't want to leave their belongings to go to the buffet are still served proper tea & coffee. To suggest that having just a trolley in standard is an improvement is ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed from a trolley the water is usually warm and not hot. A small buffet with a proper coffee machine would be great and well received. Not a cup of instant coffee with warm water from a trolley.

To me the best solution to this is large flasks of good-quality filter coffee made before loading them onto the train. All "proper coffee machines" on trains seem to have achieved is mediocre coffee using often UHT milk (vile) because they are not cleaned properly, as well as slowing down the buffet service really badly.

Serve that from a trolley at a reasonable price and that *is* an improvement, IMO.

 

[Flamingo]

To me the best solution to this is large flasks of good-quality filter coffee made before loading them onto the train. All "proper coffee machines" on trains seem to have achieved is mediocre coffee using often UHT milk (vile) because they are not cleaned properly, as well as slowing down the buffet service really badly.

Serve that from a trolley at a reasonable price and that *is* an improvement, IMO.

The ones in the FGW buffets are cleaned every trip. I see the buffet staff doing it day in day out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ones in the FGW buffets are cleaned every trip. I see the buffet staff doing it day in day out.

Not being a frequent user of those fGW trains with buffets, I'll believe you...but I'm not convinced this is universally the case on all TOCs (at least not any more than just pressing the clean button, which isn't always enough).

But in any case my other views on it stand - coffee that takes a minute or more to make is practical in a coffee shop which typically has 3-4 people serving, not so much at a single-manned buffet car where people want to get back to their seat before their bag gets nicked.