W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[Temple Meads]

Take another "Like" from this guard as well Low Level, that was excellently put.

And another from a humble pax.

 

[TheLastMinute]

This is clearly a very divisive issue. I think those arguing the case for DOO should have some sensitivity and remember that the implication of their view is that the job done by a lot of fellow forum members should be somehow devalued. That's not a very nice thing for anybody hear, no matter what.

Personally, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. There are good arguments on both sides.

But what I do think that the RMT and TMs are all between a rock and hard place. The union has to fight it tooth and nail because once trains can run DOO, the effect of TM striking becomes almost nil. The TMs have no choice as the guarantees of no job losses/pay cuts are only good until the new franchise starts in 2019 but which time they will be almost powerless to do anything about it.

TLM

 

[Aictos]

So what about the 12 car DOO services that operate routinely on Thameslink,Greater Anglia etc?

I don't know if you've realised but there is a difference between InterCity and Network South commuter services, I was referring to the fact that I don't like the idea of InterCity services being operated in DOO mode if the diagrammed Train Manager is not available.

The only time a InterCity set should be operated in DOO mode is when they are operating as ECS other then that they should not be in passenger use without a fully safety critical Train Manager onboard.

 

[LowLevel]

Just as a great example of how 'secure' these 'socio-economic' non-jobs as the ORR refers to them are - LM recently made it's entire non safety critical revenue department redundant and re-employed a few of them. XC is trying to substantially alter the terms and role of it's few Midlands based RPIs and EMT is doing it's best to rid itself of full time ATEs as well - old MML grade RPOs get paid more than the ex Central side guards though.

No interest, I'd strike for weeks to keep that crucial 'safety critical' wording as it means unless the service ceases entirely 'someone' is required in that job role.

 

[Hadders]

I don't know if you've realised but there is a difference between InterCity and Network South commuter services, I was referring to the fact that I don't like the idea of InterCity services being operated in DOO mode if the diagrammed Train Manager is not available.

The only time a InterCity set should be operated in DOO mode is when they are operating as ECS other then that they should not be in passenger use without a fully safety critical Train Manager onboard.

I agree that there should always be more than one member of staff on board an inter-city style service.

But, what is the difference between a 12 car Great Northern service first stop Cambridge (45 minutes) and, say, a FGW HST service first stop Reading or a Virgin service stop Milton Keynes?

 

[Carlisle]

I don't know if you've realised but there is a difference between InterCity and Network South commuter services, I was referring to the fact that I don't like the idea of InterCity services being operated in DOO mode if the diagrammed Train Manager is not available.

The only time a InterCity set should be operated in DOO mode is when they are operating as ECS other then that they should not be in passenger use without a fully safety critical Train Manager onboard.

The DFT will want maximum flexibility from their large investment in the new fleet , so the proposal as it stands right now is only to operate DOO on a last resort basis in a DOO area which has itself already existed for 22 years , if however your saying the plan will lead to future extensions and possible job losses or DOO should be abolished altogether , fine , but that's another argument

 

[Greenback]

Please try and refrain from becoming personal. I understand that this is a very emotive subject, but it's possible, and more effective to address the argument rather than the poster.

The discussion does seem to be going around in circles, though, and there isn't much new that's being said.

 

[Flamingo]

I agree that there should always be more than one member of staff on board an inter-city style service.c

But, what is the difference between a 12 car Great Northern service first stop Cambridge (45 minutes) and, say, a FGW HST service first stop Reading or a Virgin service stop Milton Keynes?

You are right - they should all have a guard..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if you've realised but there is a difference between InterCity and Network South commuter services, I was referring to the fact that I don't like the idea of InterCity services being operated in DOO mode if the diagrammed Train Manager is not available.

There is a customer service and revenue difference (NSE DOO commuter services tend to be populated with commuters and other regular passengers who know the service, know how to get information about it, and who largely have paid because they have season tickets, whereas IC has far more infrequent passengers requiring of assistance, particularly in disruption) but I don't agree there is a safety difference.

DOO is clearly less safe than guard operation, but that in my view is true of any (urban or interurban[1]) train.

[1] Very rural services have a far stronger case for a safety critical guard because unlike NSE/IC there are vast swathes of route with very basic infrastructure where no other staff at all will be encountered and help could take a long time in the event of an accident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You are right - they should all have a guard..

And that view is consistent and makes sense - the thing I find difficult is the line that existing urban DOO is sort-of acceptable but further IC DOO isn't, particularly given that much of fGW these days (the Cornish expresses aside) is a pseudo commuter operation in some ways a bit more like South West Trains than East Coast.

I get the argument that removing existing DOO is a far harder task so isn't a good use of Unions' time and effort, but not that one is OK and the other isn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are the anti-train guard posters saying that the IEP trains shouldn't have a dedicated train managers office?

I personally quite like the idea of having a public-facing information desk where the guard sits and is available for questions etc from passengers if he isn't walking the train or doing safety related duties. But that of course takes up space on an overcrowded railway, so if a buffet isn't justified for reasons of space that probably isn't either.

That might have other benefits if it was the case on most IC trains - you could for instance say that tickets are sold on board (where barriers are not in use) if you actively go to the guard's office and buy one, but if you sit there waiting to be found that'll be a PF, cheers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I make the price, per head to ensure passenger safety as not very much. 30k a year. 1 12 car train per day. 1500 people per train. 180(ish) days a year worked. If I worked just one 12 car train every day on my salary, for 180 days a year, the price of safety comes in at slightly more than a penny per passenger. Or, to put it another way, about a penny or so of your ticket price (assuming you do buy tickets) goes to ensure your safety while you are on my train. Doesn't sound so bad when you put it like that, does it??

A very interesting point. Of course your salary is not the only cost of employing you - as a rough figure it's often said that to employ a member of staff costs roughly twice their salary if you take into account things like pensions, training, non-working time e.g. sick leave etc.

However, if the figure really is as low as it seems...even though I do think DOO is "safe enough" I would be more than happy to pay 10p on the ticket price, or even £1, for the benefits of having a guard on board. Neither of those figures would break the bank on the sort of ticket prices we are taking about on IC.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'd like to make it clear that I fully support having a fully qualified person in charge of a long distance train (see previous posts) and in no way would I seek to insult present employees here, nor have I. The issue I have discussed had to do solely with safety and comfort of pax. As an example, the threat of unruly, criminal, thieving fellow travellers is infinitely more relevant than the chance of surviving a major train crash, although it is essential that staff are trained to deal with such an unlikely event as that. I believe the TOCs with NR need to do far more to ensure a pleasant journey for pax. I think that needs more staff and controls, not fewer.

 

[FordFocus]

I think you guys haven't grasped it yet. Safety comes at a cost. The powers that be have determined that the additional safety afforded by a guard is not good VfM. They'd rather you were collecting revenue than worrying your pretty little heads about safety issues.

I think many of us have got the idea of what this DOO proposal is about, money. Has it occurred to you that the powers in the DfT may have got this wrong? I don't really have much faith in the DfT with the cock ups with franchising (West Coast, Northern and their stupid no growth franchise) and especially with the rolling stock saga that's affecting the majority of the country with no DMU orders and putting all it's eggs into the electrification basket.

The accountants in Whitehall shouldn't get involved with crewing arrangements amongst other things with TOCs. All they should do is set down a minimum provision of service with frequency, capacity and performance targets. Making sure the franchise is on a financial footing and not end up like Connex where they fail to pay bills to suppliers. DCO or DOO should not be of their concern but left down to the discretion of the TOC.

 

[timbo58]

Senior steward was a intercity term for catering staff by the way - they were never safety critical grades.

 

[455driver]

I agree that there should always be more than one member of staff on board an inter-city style service.

But, what is the difference between a 12 car Great Northern service first stop Cambridge (45 minutes) and, say, a FGW HST service first stop Reading or a Virgin service stop Milton Keynes?

Paddington to Reading is highly populated so not much, but what about Reading to Taunton?
How far is it from Cambridge and the second stop on the cruiser?
How populated is that area?

Don't just focus on the bits that 'prove' your argument, lets look at the whole route if you want a true comparison!

 

[Flamingo]

The bit around Ruscombe is pretty deserted...

 

[387star]

I travelled on a DOO turbo from Oxford to Reading and was in the rear unit as the front one was dangerously overcrowded.. With no gangway and no guard on that part of the train can't say I felt exactly safe

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travelled on a DOO turbo from Oxford to Reading and was in the rear unit as the front one was dangerously overcrowded.. With no gangway and no guard on that part of the train can't say I felt exactly safe

What did you think was going to happen that would have been a threat?

Do you feel safe travelling by car?

 

[plastictaffy]

What did you think was going to happen that would have been a threat?

Do you feel safe travelling by car?

It doesn't matter what may or may not happen. When a service is dangerously loaded, despatch can be a challenge from stations where a lot have got off. I held one for a few minutes at Rugby last week after the festival in Coventry meant about 8 carriages worth of people got off four carriages. When the train is that busy, two pairs of eyes is better than one.
Travelling by car is completely different. There's less people in it, for a start (unless you count the last Bedford-Bletchley service midweek) with a lot more variables that can affect the way the journey goes.

 

[HH]

I think many of us have got the idea of what this DOO proposal is about, money. Has it occurred to you that the powers in the DfT may have got this wrong? I don't really have much faith in the DfT with the cock ups with franchising (West Coast, Northern and their stupid no growth franchise) and especially with the rolling stock saga that's affecting the majority of the country with no DMU orders and putting all it's eggs into the electrification basket.

Has it occurred to me? Of course. I probably have less faith in DfT than you do - I've met a lot of them.

This is all about money. Of course. There's always a balance between risk and cost. DfT obviously believe the balance can be improved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't matter what may or may not happen.

Well, it does in the sense of the OP "feeling unsafe", rather than the logistics of dispatch etc. I can't see why I would feel unsafe on a DOO train because a train of any kind, even DOO, is much safer than road transport. So I am trying to rationalise the fear.

Do I think guard operation is preferable? Yes. Do I think DOO is unsafe? No.

 

[notadriver]

What did you think was going to happen that would have been a threat?



Do you feel safe travelling by car?

It depends on the driver. As a passenger I've been driven around by what I consider to be some very unsafe car and pcv drivers. When traveling on a coach I feel safe in the knowledge that I can speak to the driver if I want reassurance about some such as arrival time at a destination or are we stopping at (whereever) and additionally safer that the vehicle is speed limited unlike a car. You can't use a passcom for information on a train and if lets say a passcom was activated on a Cambridge cruiser doing its 45 minute non stop journey, the driver would have to bring the train to a halt at the next convenient station reset it and cause delay.

 

[Flamingo]

I suppose the chances are a dozen ****ed-up football fans looking for a fight are not going to get into your car...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not overly likely on a peak time Thames Valley stopper either, let's be fair.

 

[Carlisle]

When traveling on a coach I feel safe in the knowledge that I speak to the driver if I want reassurance about some such as arrival time at a destination or are we stopping at (whereever) and additionally safer that the vehicle is speed limited unlike a car.

Not always the case, as I used to use the London-Carlisle overnight National Express coach service fairly regularly and glad I wasn't on it that night it overturned on the M25 slip road

 

[notadriver]

Not always the case, as I used to use the London-Carlisle overnight National Express coach service fairly regularly and glad I wasn't on it that night it overturned on the M25 slip road

Did you not feel safe on it ? I guess my comparison is the driver is locked away on a DOO train and passengers can't be reassured by asking questions whereas on a coach they can ask the driver questions. The issue of (coach) driver competency is something else I think.

 

[bnm]

When traveling on a coach I feel safe in the knowledge that I can speak to the driver if I want reassurance about some such as arrival time at a destination or are we stopping at (whereever) and additionally safer that the vehicle is speed limited unlike a car.

You're happy to distract a coach driver are you? PCV licence holders should not allow passengers to talk to them whilst the vehicle is in motion. They can lose their licence. I'd hope a coach driver would quickly tell you to return to your seat. Where you should remain, belted in, when the vehicle is in motion.

 

[Carlisle]

Did you not feel safe on it ? I guess my comparison is the driver is locked away on a DOO train and passengers can't be reassured by asking questions whereas on a coach they can ask the driver questions. The issue of (coach) driver competency is something else I think.

Yes I felt safe , customer service wasn't great and on those double decker coaches, if memory serves correctly drivers are kind of in a separate compartment anyway so not quite as accessible as on a single decker

 

[notadriver]

You're happy to distract a coach driver are you? PCV licence holders should not allow passengers to talk to them whilst the vehicle is in motion. They can lose their licence. I'd hope a coach driver would quickly tell you to return to your seat. Where you should remain, belted in, when the vehicle is in motion.

If it was urgent yes I'd be happy to distract the driver. Passengers talk to coach drivers all the time especially on tour coaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes I felt safe , customer service wasn't great and on those double decker coaches, if memory serves correctly drivers are kind of in a separate compartment anyway so not quite as accessible as on a single decker

Well they are downstairs but not locked away in the same way a train driver is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reasons to distract a coach driver are similar to the reasons for using the passcom, though, aren't they?

 

[Aictos]

You're happy to distract a coach driver are you? PCV licence holders should not allow passengers to talk to them whilst the vehicle is in motion. They can lose their licence. I'd hope a coach driver would quickly tell you to return to your seat. Where you should remain, belted in, when the vehicle is in motion.

I agree, I on the other hand have multiple times have had reason to talk to the driver while vehicle was in motion on the grounds I was piloting the driver on where to go as very first time they drove the service.

Generally speaking though, it's best not to distract the driver unless there's a very good reason that said we are going off topic here.

 

[notadriver]

The reasons to distract a coach driver are similar to the reasons for using the passcom, though, aren't they?

No that's the point. You wouldn't use the passcom to query an arrival time for example.