voyager modifications

[TheWalrus]

Hi

Could you modify a voyager by attatching a pantograph and whatever else necessary for electric power, making it a bi-mode, plus making it have a top speed of 140mph?

 

[HITMAN]

It should be possible, with Voyagers being diesel electric I believe they are considering fitting them, which im sure would be very much welcomed by everyone

 

[TheWalrus]

It should be possible, with Voyagers being diesel electric I believe they are considering fitting them, which im sure would be very much welcomed by everyone

Yes definitely! How about a speed upgrade to 140mph? If we could do that, get bombardier to build a load of 222s like this and cancel expensive and not as good IEP! Job done!

Plus we could divert the money to more electrification and cancel the 17b HS2, using the money to upgrade WCML and GWML. Some of these politicians haven't a clue when it comes to railways- let's just hope Philip Hammond is clued up on it!

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes definitely! How about a speed upgrade to 140mph? If we could do that, get bombardier to build a load of 222s like this and cancel expensive and not as good IEP! Job done!

Plus we could divert the money to more electrification and cancel the 17b HS2, using the money to upgrade WCML and GWML. Some of these politicians haven't a clue when it comes to railways- let's just hope Philip Hammond is clued up on it!

Don't know about 140. If the trains have been designed for it, then yes. If the bodies and bogies can prove they can take it (at least 155mph for testing purposes!) then with a new in-cab signalling system and enough upgrades don't see why not.

HS2 needs to be built regardless, so Voyagers/Meridians would just be a stopgap to avoid IEP.

 

[rail-britain]

Given the Class 91 and 390 don't utilise 140mph, then 125mph would remain the maximum speed

However, this is the first I have heard of converting the Voyager fleet into EMU or duel power source, although there have been suggestings and rumours before but discounted as too expensive; new rolling stock would be the cheaper option from the RoSCo

 

[Geezertronic]

Plus we could divert the money to more electrification and cancel the 17b HS2, using the money to upgrade WCML and GWML. Some of these politicians haven't a clue when it comes to railways- let's just hope Philip Hammond is clued up on it!

It's not just politicians that don't have a clue Why cancel HS2 and all the capacity increases it will bring not only for high speed travel but freeing up paths on the WCML/ECML which in theory would negate the need for major and very disruptive upgrades that would offer little value in comparison?

 

[HITMAN]

Yes definitely! How about a speed upgrade to 140mph? If we could do that, get bombardier to build a load of 222s like this and cancel expensive and not as good IEP! Job done!

Plus we could divert the money to more electrification and cancel the 17b HS2, using the money to upgrade WCML and GWML. Some of these politicians haven't a clue when it comes to railways- let's just hope Philip Hammond is clued up on it!

Thats exactly what I've been saying, adding a pantograph coach would increase capacity and cut down on emissions by allowing the Voyagers (and possibly Meridians south of Bedford) to run from overhead lines where they can. Theres no need to replace the IC225 trains yet, and with HS2 we could displace the pendo's onto the GWML.

I disagree with you on HS2 though, its the most cost effective way to increase capacity between London and Rugby, the route of which will be running over capacity by the time HS2 would be finished.

 

[rail-britain]

Are you suggesting adding a further coach to the Voyagers, making them 5 and 6 cars?
If so, then the pantograph car is going to do an extreme amount of work
The next issue will be distributing the electricity to the other cars
The train will be moving the "dead weight" of the diesel engines
Finally, these units are already inefficient and expensive to operate, an extra diesel powered coach increases these costs further

Perhaps the conversion could be in two parts
The Cross Country ones could be partial conversions, allowing bi-mode
The West Coast ones could be complete conversions, for electric only, which would include removal of the diesel engines completely
This would then also free up some internal space currently occupied by the exhaust system

 

[90019]

Are you suggesting adding a further coach to the Voyagers, making them 5 and 6 cars?
If so, then the pantograph car is going to do an extreme amount of work
The next issue will be distributing the electricity to the other cars
The train will be moving the "dead weight" of the diesel engines
Finally, these units are already inefficient and expensive to operate, an extra diesel powered coach increases these costs further

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

The pantograph car would be a trailer, but would power the traction motors in the other cars of the train.
It's not as if the Voyagers are underpowered anyway.

 

[HITMAN]

Are you suggesting adding a further coach to the Voyagers, making them 5 and 6 cars?
If so, then the pantograph car is going to do an extreme amount of work
The next issue will be distributing the electricity to the other cars
The train will be moving the "dead weight" of the diesel engines
Finally, these units are already inefficient and expensive to operate, an extra diesel powered coach increases these costs further

Perhaps the conversion could be in two parts
The Cross Country ones could be partial conversions, allowing bi-mode
The West Coast ones could be complete conversions, for electric only, which would include removal of the diesel engines completely
This would then also free up some internal space currently occupied by the exhaust system

They should be made to 6 car trains.
The trains are diesel electric, so you could just run a cable and add a transformer which should be sufficient. These trains would be more efficient opperating under electric power rather than diesel and significantly so. Theres no point in taking the diesel engines out of voyagers, you'd be much better building more pendo's and using the voyagers on more non electrified routes

 

[rail-britain]

The pantograph car would be a trailer, but would power the traction motors in the other cars of the train.
It's not as if the Voyagers are underpowered anyway.

I realise the additional car would be a trailer, the same as on the Class 390
However, the load on the transformer would be higher than on the Class 390 due to the train weight (unless the diesel engines were removed)

Most of the Voyagers I have been on were underpowered, due to loss of engines
The worst was a Preston - Edinburgh with just two engines operating

 

[oliverj8]

Are you suggesting adding a further coach to the Voyagers, making them 5 and 6 cars?
If so, then the pantograph car is going to do an extreme amount of work
The next issue will be distributing the electricity to the other cars
The train will be moving the "dead weight" of the diesel engines
Finally, these units are already inefficient and expensive to operate, an extra diesel powered coach increases these costs further

Perhaps the conversion could be in two parts
The Cross Country ones could be partial conversions, allowing bi-mode
The West Coast ones could be complete conversions, for electric only, which would include removal of the diesel engines completely
This would then also free up some internal space currently occupied by the exhaust system

How are Virgin going to run their Chester/Holyhead and diversionary services without diesel power?

 

[Crossforth]

If they build a panto car, could the same design be used for both 221s and 222s?
As in, is the body shell and electrics the same?

 

[507 001]

Yes, they are identical units, just with the addition of the tilting mech in the 221's

 

[ukrob]

Yes, they are identical units, just with the addition of the tilting mech in the 221's

No, they are not.

A 221 is not compatible with a 222 BECAUSE their wiring and electrics is different.

I suspect you are thinking of 220 vs 221.

 

[87015]

I realise the additional car would be a trailer, the same as on the Class 390

Are 22x built to the standards to have a 25kv bus between coaches then? I was of the thought that they were not and therefore any panto coach would have to be a stand alone power car as it couldn't cross-feed any other coaches.

 

[starrymarkb]

No, they are not.

A 221 is not compatible with a 222 BECAUSE their wiring and electrics is different.

I suspect you are thinking of 220 vs 221.

Bodyshell is the same.

Plus electric is capable of supplying much more power then the diesel engines...

 

[ukrob]

Bodyshell is the same.

Plus electric is capable of supplying much more power then the diesel engines...

The same bodyshell doesn't mean they are compatible with each other.

I didn't mention how much power electric can supply so I assume you were replying to someone else

 

[ChrisCooper]

It wouldn't need a 25kV bus as the transformer would drop the voltage to something a lot lower. Actually, does anyone know what the alternator output on a 22X is? Most diesel electric alternators are in the 1000 to 2000v range, and electric train transformers usually output in the same range. 25kV buses are only used where units have one pantograph in use but feeding (usually) two transformers (e.g a 390 has a transformer under each pantograph car, but both are usually fed 25kV from the pantograph on the rear pantograph car). Many EMUs have lower voltage traction buses, all 3rd rail types do (other than those working in deep level tube tunnels) at 750v, as do other types with distributed power (i.e a single unit has motors on more than one vehicle, e.g Networkers onwards and the PEP family). DEMUs don't need them as usually engines and motors are in the same coach, but 22Xs might have them to power motors on coaches which have the engine shut down. Anyone know if they do? The fact the fitting of a pantograph coach is being suggested by Bombardier suggests they do. The fitting of shoegear was also talked about early on, which would also have needed a traction bus. Shoving a traction bus in wouldn't be that easy, they have to be very heavy duty due to the high currents (thousands of amps).

 

[starrymarkb]

Yep, 313s are a good example. They consist of two independent motor cars running off 750VDC, the Panto car takes the 25kV and transforms it to 750V and then feeds the motor cars, in DC mode the motor cars are isolated from the panto car (and therefore each other) hence they need two shoe beams per side rather then the usual one per side.

Hope that made sense

 

[ChrisCooper]

Off topic, but on the subject of 313s, where does rectification take place, on the PTSO or the Motor coaches? I know that travelling in a 313 motor coach on AC there is a hum, suggesting the presence of 50Hz AC. Oviously the 314s and 315s supply AC to the motor coaches as it's needed for the thyristors (and the hum is very noticable on them). Another thing I've always wonders is how similar 313, 314 and 315 PTSOs and 313, 507 and 508 motor coaches are and if they are interchangeable (for example in the event of an accident or fire). I know their weights are slightly different and their are cosmetic differences (window layout at the pan end), but that's another issue.

 

[starrymarkb]

On the PTSO afaik

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

If you are going with the bother of building a pantograph car, why have they never bothered converting them to 7-8 car sets as well?

 

[MCR247]

If you are going with the bother of building a pantograph car, why have they never bothered converting them to 7-8 car sets as well?

Because
- The engines are not in production
- It would make the train slower

 

[WillPS]

I'll say this until I'm blue in the face - if there were ever the need to couple Voyagers and Meridians, it would not be beyond the wit of man to make them compatible.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'll say this until I'm blue in the face - if there were ever the need to couple Voyagers and Meridians, it would not be beyond the wit of man to make them compatible.

No - just a complete rip-out and make a whole new TMS for one of the units...

Mechanically, they will couple and one set can drag another. That is all. For them to work together, communicate and whatnot, they will need to be upgraded/downgraded as required. And no-one wants to do that!!!

 

[HITMAN]

I'll say this until I'm blue in the face - if there were ever the need to couple Voyagers and Meridians, it would not be beyond the wit of man to make them compatible.

Yes.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Thats exactly what I've been saying, adding a pantograph coach would increase capacity and cut down on emissions by allowing the Voyagers (and possibly Meridians south of Bedford) to run from overhead lines where they can. Theres no need to replace the IC225 trains yet, and with HS2 we could displace the pendo's onto the GWML.

I disagree with you on HS2 though, its the most cost effective way to increase capacity between London and Rugby, the route of which will be running over capacity by the time HS2 would be finished.

What would be the point displacing Pendos on the GWML? What would replace the Pendos on WCML?

 

[CarterUSM]

Off topic, but on the subject of 313s, where does rectification take place, on the PTSO or the Motor coaches? I know that travelling in a 313 motor coach on AC there is a hum, suggesting the presence of 50Hz AC. Oviously the 314s and 315s supply AC to the motor coaches as it's needed for the thyristors (and the hum is very noticable on them). Another thing I've always wonders is how similar 313, 314 and 315 PTSOs and 313, 507 and 508 motor coaches are and if they are interchangeable (for example in the event of an accident or fire). I know their weights are slightly different and their are cosmetic differences (window layout at the pan end), but that's another issue.

I think 314203 has a driving motor coach from a 507. Though i may stand corrected.

 

[HITMAN]

What would be the point displacing Pendos on the GWML? What would replace the Pendos on WCML?

To give better journey times along that route, HS2 trains would opperate on HS2 as far as birmingham and then some would take the classic WCML whilst the WCML south of Rugby would be served by LM trains.