Voyager Computer Problems

[BestWestern]

There was also a time when cars didn't get 30+ mpg.

Ah yes, the fabled manufacturers' fuel economy figures! "Real world results may differ..."

Give me a semi-classic without all the nonsense any day.

Anyhow, admittedly deeply off-topic here. So, taking an EMU, the question still stands as to how much of the computer gadgetry is truly essential for the train to function, and couldn't simply be omitted if a simpler train were being devised?!

 

[Lockwood]

WSP is computer controlled. That's a useful thing.

The "Common 455 faults" video is half an hour long.
The "180 Faults and Failures" video is 13 minutes long.
(That comparison does need to be taken with a pinch of salt)

 

[BuhSnarf]

I would imagine a large amount of the gadgetry that the computer runs is not seen by the passenger. I also imagine a lot of it is safety related and let's be honest trains are a lot safer now a days.

Sent from my GT-I9505G

 

[carriageline]

Question to drivers: these modern trains, when you get a fault does the computer make it any easier to diagnose what the problem is? (Ie you get a message straight away with what the problem is), and if so does that that make it easier to fix a problem than the "old stock"? Can you do more to rectify the fault with the computer, or is it still cases of tripping MCBs etc?


In short, if a train with a computer has, for example, door interlock problems, does the computer make it easier to diagnose what carriage and what is wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[talltim]

I'm not against computers in trains, but the computers for separate systems should be separated and networked. A fault with the PA should not require the whole train be shut down, just the PA.

 

[najaB]

Question to drivers: these modern trains, when you get a fault does the computer make it any easier to diagnose what the problem is?

There was a piece on the BBC a while back about how the Pendolinos actually 'phone ahead' to the maintenance depots to tell the engineers what has broken and what's about to break - which significantly reduces the amount of time spent in the workshop.

Ah, found it!

 

[carriageline]

It is very interesting. I spent a day at the ALSTOM depot at work (wembley) and a fitter was sitting on a laptop seeing what was wrong with a train as it was pulling into the shed. Very clever stuff!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Minilad]

I would be very surprised if a train would be shut down and restarted in service just to clear a PA fault. Unless it was affecting the operation of the pass com.
In response to the question about computers assisting in fault finding. It certainly does on the traction I drive. It will instantly show what the fault is and what coach the fault is in. Makes fault finding easier

 

[BestWestern]

I'm not against computers in trains, but the computers for separate systems should be separated and networked. A fault with the PA should not require the whole train be shut down, just the PA.

This is the point, really. Yes some things are better when a computer is involved, safety systems and perhaps certain diagnostic functions and so on. The problem is that modern designers appear to be frightened of having anything that isn't wired into the computer, which then has the opposite effect, inventing overly complex problems that just don't need to exist. Why should a fault with a PA system need to affect the operation of a Passcom as somebody has suggested? A PA needs to consist of the bare components required to make announcements through the train, plus whatever feed is needed from the PIS system. What else does it need that means it needs to be wired up to the computers, which in turn create the potential for the train to end up being debilitated by a fault with it?! Likewise a Passcom. You pull it and talk to the Driver. The Driver can press a button and override or reset it. There is a nice big orange light on the side of the coach to show you where it is if you do have to go looking, and if the worst happens you flick a switch and knock the system out. Again, where is the need for the entire train to malfunction thanks to it being wired up to a central computer?

There are sensible roles for a certain degree of computer trickery if we're to be sensible, but equally there are times when the involvement of endless gadgetry seems really rather superfluous and unhelpful!

 

[infobleep]

There was also a time when cars didn't get 30+ mpg.
Totally off topic, but Microsoft didn't just wake up one morning and 'decide' to stop supporting Windows XP. The end of support date has been known and published for five or more years - it's not their fault that businesses decided to ignore it.

I agree. Personally I wish Microsoft had ended support some years before.

I still have to use XP at work, although they are trying to migrate away from it. Much rather it was Windows 7 or a Apple Mac OS - up to date one of course - that I had to use right now.

If anyone still thinks XP is good enough then they clearly don't know much about computers.

I don't think it's half of businesses using XP but I'm sure the figure is higher amongst local government then the private sector and more likely to be higher amongst large firms than smaller ones, public or private.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[infobleep]

How reliable were the old steam heated coaches pulled by the steam engines?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[carriageline]

It's getting a bit off tofic, and perhaps "too far" but I wonder if the PA system is deemed quite important, as in GSMR areas the signaller can/will make announcement over the PA of a train that, for example, has had a DVD activation. Of course, GSMR only areas...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Carlisle]

It's the same for anything though - even modern cars are prone to ECU problems & failures (although very rare, I've been unfortunate to have one). Everything with a computer is prone to failure but the reason the internet doesn't collapse is multi-redundancy - it can be expensive and complex which may be why n+1 systems are probably not installed on trains (I don't know if they are or not).

That's interesting , not sure about the answer regarding N+1 systems but I have heard all pendilinos are in many ways 2 separate units integrated into 1 set so if something fails there is usually a duplicate available to keep the train running

 

[SpacePhoenix]

That's interesting , not sure about the answer regarding N+1 systems but I have heard all pendilinos are in many ways 2 separate units integrated into 1 set so if something fails there is usually a duplicate available to keep the train running

If true then maybe the train equivalent of a car's ECU might be in the DMRF/DMSOs

[ot]Some companies might have held off upgrading from XP because of the cost of new computers if their current ones can't handle Win7[/ot]

Would the trains computer be one computer or actually a number of computers?

 

[ExRes]

It's getting a bit off tofic, and perhaps "too far" but I wonder if the PA system is deemed quite important, as in GSMR areas the signaller can/will make announcement over the PA of a train that, for example, has had a DVD activation. Of course, GSMR only areas...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is a DVD activation due to one of those 'top shelf' porn movies ?

 

[cjmillsnun]

[ot]Some companies might have held off upgrading from XP because of the cost of new computers if their current ones can't handle Win7[/ot]

That's a poor excuse, as Pentium 4s can handle 7 well enough, and so can all netbooks with their Atom processors

 

[SpacePhoenix]

That's a poor excuse, as Pentium 4s can handle 7 well enough, and so can all netbooks with their Atom processors

How do you know they are using Pentium 4s, they might be using Pentium 2s or 3s for all we know. Standard workstations won't necessarily all be high power machines if the main programs used on them are ones like Word and Excell

 

[Haydn1971]

A quick Google - http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/computer/pep/

 

[TheKnightWho]

How do you know they are using Pentium 4s, they might be using Pentium 2s or 3s for all we know. Standard workstations won't necessarily all be high power machines if the main programs used on them are ones like Word and Excell

If you're still using computers from 1997 then that's not Microsoft's fault. If you're defining a Pentium 4 as a 'high power machine' then I really don't know what to say. The line hasn't been shipped in 6 years, and frankly from around 2002-2008 the low-end ones were some of the most bog standard processors around and were in every cheap laptop or computer.

There is absolutely no excuse for not upgrading from Windows XP - all computers from around 2004 onwards are perfectly capable of running it without issues.

 

[najaB]

There is absolutely no excuse for not upgrading from Windows XP - all computers from around 2004 onwards are perfectly capable of running it without issues.

That's not fair! When I bought this computer, nobody ever told me I might have to spend actual money to keep it up to date. Dell sold me this computer with Windows XP on it, so Microsoft has an obligation to support it forever, for free.

 

[zn1]

once upon a time up until a few years ago the main computing power of the average train was provided by the man in the front seat....i think they called that computer....the driver ?

all this computing power on the units these days may be great for fault diagnosis, etc...but its making control of the train a flaming nightmare...in the good old days doors were opened and closed by 3 buttons that controlled relays, they shut the doors...the WSP's never needed computers...(dont think an am10 had computer power)...the air con was controlled by thermostats..a SWT driver at windsor told me that the desiros know where they are on the line....he selects braking he knows...the train says no brake here...so i asked what do u prefer to sit on....he said without hesitation....the 455's are a better drive...

just to add....windows CE controlling a train ? windows has problems with tills in tescos....the last thing id let windows operate is passenger vehicles....

 

[cjmillsnun]

How do you know they are using Pentium 4s, they might be using Pentium 2s or 3s for all we know. Standard workstations won't necessarily all be high power machines if the main programs used on them are ones like Word and Excell

Bearing in mind the support for office 2003 has also ended, an upgrade is still required. If they are using PCs from the previous millennium then they are likely to be close to dying anyway.

The biggest obstacle from moving from Windows XP is the piece of crap that came with it. I'm referring to IE6. A browser that until 6 months ago I was forced to use in my workplace.

XP is 13 years old. Its time is up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

just to add....windows CE controlling a train ? windows has problems with tills in tescos....the last thing id let windows operate is passenger vehicles....

Windows controls the radar systems in the latest Royal Navy destroyers. I'm deadly serious about that too. I have been in the control room of HMS Daring (during a public open day).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

once upon a time up until a few years ago the main computing power of the average train was provided by the man in the front seat....i think they called that computer....the driver ?

all this computing power on the units these days may be great for fault diagnosis, etc...but its making control of the train a flaming nightmare...in the good old days doors were opened and closed by 3 buttons that controlled relays, they shut the doors...the WSP's never needed computers...(dont think an am10 had computer power)...the air con was controlled by thermostats..a SWT driver at windsor told me that the desiros know where they are on the line....he selects braking he knows...the train says no brake here...so i asked what do u prefer to sit on....he said without hesitation....the 455's are a better drive...

just to add....windows CE controlling a train ? windows has problems with tills in tescos....the last thing id let windows operate is passenger vehicles....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cs_ibmc1uw

About 1:02 in the video.

 

[O L Leigh]

This one is a double set.

Key fact given by the OP that has been overlooked.

We're all assuming that there was an actual problem with the onboard computer system or the software or somesuch. However, from talking to colleagues who actually sign these units there do seem to be issues with the coupler connector blocks that can throw up all manner of spurious, difficult to find and train-stopping faults that will manifest themselves through the TMS system in the cab.

And before anyone suggests that these problems wouldn't happen on an older-tech unit, I'm sorry to report that they would. A train wire parting through the connector block could result in loss of door interlock, brake continuity, etc.

**EDIT**

On the wider point of the pros and cons, I would have to say that it isn't quite so simple. Cl317s are very "communicative" units that, with a few little tips and tricks, can quickly tell you what's wrong, where it is and what you need to do to get the thing going again. However, that didn't prevent me from getting pulled up half in and half out of a station platform due to a mystery brake fault that I couldn't clear except by using the emergency bypass switch. On the other side, Cl170s are still a mystery to me. You'll get a fault light in the cab and, unless it's something big like a stopped engine or dragging brakes, you'll have no idea what's going on.

At least with a Cl379 TMS it would tell you exactly what was happening and what you need to do, even down to a minor MCB tripping in a cupboard somewhere deep in the train. It can also self-diagnose and reset most faults, including traction equipment issues, on the move without any intervention from the driver. You can't do that with a Cl317. You have three goes at resetting the VCB and then you have to stop, go back and see what's what.

O L Leigh

 

[TheKnightWho]

once upon a time up until a few years ago the main computing power of the average train was provided by the man in the front seat....i think they called that computer....the driver ?

all this computing power on the units these days may be great for fault diagnosis, etc...but its making control of the train a flaming nightmare...in the good old days doors were opened and closed by 3 buttons that controlled relays, they shut the doors...the WSP's never needed computers...(dont think an am10 had computer power)...the air con was controlled by thermostats..a SWT driver at windsor told me that the desiros know where they are on the line....he selects braking he knows...the train says no brake here...so i asked what do u prefer to sit on....he said without hesitation....the 455's are a better drive...

just to add....windows CE controlling a train ? windows has problems with tills in tescos....the last thing id let windows operate is passenger vehicles....

Ah the good old days! When trains were slower and less reliable, and there wasn't an easy catch-all for enthusiasts to complain about because they don't really understand what's actually going on.

If computers did not provide an advantage they would not be used. It's as simple as that. Perhaps the mistake hasn't been made by the multi-billion pound company who want to make good trains to get future contracts, and maybe it's been made by you not really understanding how things work.

Even if the driver says he prefers a 455, it doesn't bloody matter if it can't get there as fast and breaks down more often.

 

[dosxuk]

Windows controls the radar systems in the latest Royal Navy destroyers. I'm deadly serious about that too. I have been in the control room of HMS Daring (during a public open day).

I doubt that Windows itself is controlling the radar very much.

Being the user interface to a system is very different to actually controlling it.

As the voyager video shows, the train is doing stuff before Windows has even booted, so again, it's not controlling the train, but it's giving access and control over the components that do actually control the train's functionality.

Finally, Windows CE / Windows Embedded are very different creatures to normal desktop Windows.

 

[najaB]

I doubt that Windows itself is controlling the radar very much.

Being the user interface to a system is very different to actually controlling it.

Apparently it's more than skin deep - old article from The Register. Totally agreed that Windows on an uncontrolled desktop machine is quite a different beast to Windows running on an embedded system.

Unless you need "nine nines" levels of reliability (think CAT III autoland systems), Windows is going to be up to the task. An occasional BSOD on a train provides most of the benefits of a system built on a real-time OS for a fraction of the cost.

 

[dosxuk]

Apparently it's more than skin deep - old article from The Register.

That article offers no clarification. With regards to radar, I would doubt that Windows is doing anything more than communicating with a microcomputer which actually controls the radar system, displaying results and changing targets. This is a completely different matter to actually driving motors and operating transceivers, where it would be far easier to build and certify a specialised lump of electronics.

Windows is popular for these applications because of it's multi purpose abilities, ease of networking, and ease of development. It's almost always far easier, and more reliable, to build a UI running on Windows to talk to specialised microcontrollers driving the physical hardware, than it is to try and build a UI into your microcontroller system.

 

[najaB]

I would doubt that Windows is doing anything more than communicating with a microcomputer which actually controls the radar system, displaying results and changing targets.

I would also be surprised if it was. The reason I linked to that article is because it shows that Windows is doing more than handling the UI. From what I have seen, the C&C infrastructure design is a Windows-based network speaking to 'sealed boxes' - where some of those boxes control the toilets, and others control the surface to air missiles.

This is likely to be very similar to the way Voyagers work (sadly, minus the missiles. )

 

[RobShipway]

I am sure on a video somewhere that I saw, it showed Voyagers running on Windows XP as neither Windows 7 or Windows 8 was around when the Voyagers started their revenue services, so I suspect if there is issues with the computers it is either they have been upgraded to Windows 7 or there is a windows patch problem with them running Windows XP.