Virgin's new "11-car" Pendolino's (and associated Platform Extensions)

[All Line Rover]

NEW PENDOLINOS:

As many of you will know from other threads, Virgin have now introduced a new "11-car" Pendolino - 390 054 - which is temporarily 9-car.

Although I haven't been on this Pendolino yet, from what I've been told, I find it quite shocking that nothing has been changed (or shall I say, rectified).

Here are some common complaints:

• The seats are too hard!
• Not enough seats line up with the windows!
• The toilets smell!
• There isn't enough luggage space!

Surely Virgin and Alstom will have learnt from these mistakes, and will have corrected them in the new Pendolinos? Perhaps Virgin don't want to change anything - or cannot change anything - because changing the specification would dramatically increase the price of these new trains.

Nevertheless, it seems short-sighted to me. The current Pendolino's are approaching 10 years of age. Like 222's (which are newer), they will eventually have to be refurbished - quite dramatically too if the toilet problems are to be fixed.

Surely now - with the introduction of these 4 new Pendolino's - would be an opportune time to show what refurbished Pendolino's would be like? These new Pendolino's could be the "refurbished" model, with the current Pendolino's to follow in the next few years.

PLATFORM EXTENSIONS:

Virgin and the DfT continually say that 11-car Pendolino's cannot be brought into service until Platform Extension work has been completed. Why is this?

For through stations, 11-car Pendolino's could easily be brought into service without any Platform Extension work by using SDO (Selective Door Operation). For terminus stations, 11-car Pendolino's could be brought into service by extending platforms to accommodate 10-car trains and by using SDO. (Most terminus stations - such as London Euston - already seem to be capable of accommodating 10-car trains since they can accommodate 10-car doubled-up Super Voyagers.)

I have attached a diagram to explain what I mean. At through stations, passengers in Coach A and Coach K would only have to walk a distance of less than one metre - i.e. into the next carriage - to exit the train. They'd only have to enter the carriage, not walk through it. How hard can it be!?

For terminus stations that can accommodate 10-car trains, passengers in Coach A or Coach K would have to do the same thing to exit the train.

Does anyone know of any reasons for why this cannot be done? Or at least why Virgin or the DfT don't want to do it? It seems simple enough to me - and extremely cost effective.

Also note that, as shown in the diagram, I think that on 11-car Pendolino's the First Class Quiet Coach can be switched back to being the first First Class carriage after Standard Class. There would be no pantograph above the carriage, and staff wouldn't have to pass through the carriage, creating less noise. On an 11-car Pendolino with 7 Standard Class carriages, I think it will be very rare for First Class to be declassified.

 

[MCR247]

Here are some common complaints:

• The seats are too hard!
• Not enough seats line up with the windows!
• The toilets smell!
• There isn't enough luggage space!

Well what can you do about seats & lining up to windows? Have less seats? Hmm firstly, I wonder why the are being extended?! Secondly, how would reservations work?

RE Platforms

Is your idea for terminus stations thought through? Pointwork, signals etc etc

 

[Pumbaa]

The franchise has no safety case for 11-car SDO. It's not going to happen until the new franchise.

And the new Pendos were ordered to EXACTLY the same specification to keep costs down, hence the radio sets in seats etc. The only changes are the bin door designs and no holders for the hotline magazine due to parts not being manufactured anymore.

What do you want them to do about seat/window alignment exactly? If they take out the seats, they reduce capacity. Not ideal.

 

[All Line Rover]

Well what can you do about seats & lining up to windows? Have less seats? Hmm firstly, I wonder why the are being extended?! Secondly, how would reservations work?

Arriva have done it with their 158's, and after being on a refurb for the first time on Monday, I can say that they have done it very well indeed!

"Have less seats" is not the only option. Redesigning the layout of the carriage - e.g. where luggage racks are placed, and how big they are - can also affect how many seats align with the windows. For example, more seats align with the windows on a 221 compared to a 390. At the moment, it is just pathetic that so many seats don't align with the windows!

RE Platforms

Is your idea for terminus stations thought through? Pointwork, signals etc etc

Well, it still seems like a much cheaper option compared to platform extension work. Since Euston (and other stations) can already accommodate 10-car Super Voyagers, why can they not accommodate an 11-car Pendolino which would effectively have 10-cars because of SDO?

 

[87015]

What do you want them to do about seat/window alignment exactly? If they take out the seats, they reduce capacity. Not ideal.

Design them against passenger loadings properly in the first place? There is no way every set needs four FC cars, they managed with the Mk2/Mk3 sets which had different formations catered towards demand, even the much maligned NXEA can still do it...

 

[All Line Rover]

And the new Pendos were ordered to EXACTLY the same specification to keep costs down, hence the radio sets in seats etc. The only changes are the bin door designs and no holders for the hotline magazine due to parts not being manufactured anymore.

That's not very exciting! And it's definitely short-sighted! Costs will be higher when the trains have to be refurbished in the next few years. (Although since Virgin don't know if they'll keep the franchise, I can understand why they aren't investing much money at the moment.)

 

[Pumbaa]

True, but during peaks both classes are rammed regardless.

 

[Lampshade]

Re: platform extensions.

Platforms 3 and 4 at Preston can accommodate a 14-car APT - yet they're lengthening platform 6 to not even the length of platform 4... why? That must be the very definition of 'pointless' hock:

 

[The Planner]

Why extend it further than the longest train that is ever likely to use it ??

 

[MCR247]

why can they not accommodate an 11-car Pendolino which would effectively have 10-cars because of SDO?

It can't "effectively have 10-cars" because SDO or not it still has 11! Therefore in Euston say, you'd be blocking off platforms etc because the 11th car is blocking signals and points.

 

[All Line Rover]

It can't "effectively have 10-cars" because SDO or not it still has 11! Therefore in Euston say, you'd be blocking off platforms etc because the 11th car is blocking signals and points.

Surely SDO would still be the cheaper option? Signals and points still have to be re-done with Platform Extension work.

 

[MCR247]

So you're suggesting going ahead with associated work that would be done with platform lengthening, but then not actually lengthening the platforms themselves?


Jeez you're obsessed with 'the cheaper option', but its about practicality.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Design them against passenger loadings properly in the first place? There is no way every set needs four FC cars, they managed with the Mk2/Mk3 sets which had different formations catered towards demand, even the much maligned NXEA can still do it...

Your point addresses the problem from its inception. Have first-class loading figures been evaluated against differing time periods during the day? At the present time, because of the very nature of set formation, the same first-class seat capacity obviously remains a constant factor on a nine-coach set.

This is the problem when comparing with the Mk2/Mk3 set formations, which can be made to any permutation, as you are dealing with each coach as a self-contained unit.

 

[All Line Rover]

So you're suggesting going ahead with associated work that would be done with platform lengthening, but then not actually lengthening the platforms themselves?


Jeez you're obsessed with 'the cheaper option', but its about practicality.

But the government is always going on about cost-cutting! And the DfT claim (or imply) that Platform Extension work is extremely costly.

 

[MCR247]

But you are suggesting to go ahead with what is probably one of the most costly parts!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Surely SDO would still be the cheaper option? Signals and points still have to be re-done with Platform Extension work.

With the platform extensions being done for 11 cars, no signals or pointwork have been touched...

 

[All Line Rover]

But you are suggesting to go ahead with what is probably one of the most costly parts!

But could it really be one of the most costly parts at stations such as Crewe and Stafford, where the tracks are just long, straight lines? The only main problem at these stations is the platform being too short. (I'm not sure about Crewe, though - it might just be long enough.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With the platform extensions being done for 11 cars, no signals or pointwork have been touched...

So if it hasn't been necessary for Platform Extension work, then I wouldn't have been necessary for SDO?

 

[MCR247]

With the platform extensions being done for 11 cars, no signals or pointwork have been touched...

Well I stand corrected

 

[Liam]

But could it really be one of the most costly parts at stations such as Crewe and Stafford, where the tracks are just long, straight lines? The only main problem at these stations is the platform being too short. (I'm not sure about Crewe, though - it might just be long enough.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So if it hasn't been necessary for Platform Extension work, then I wouldn't have been necessary for SDO?

Crewe is easily be long enough isn't it? the Highland Sleeper manages to fit in.

 

[WatcherZero]

No point, the lengthened platforms will all be ready next year so its easier to run them shorter until then. It also doesnt make sense to order new trains with a different layout /equipment/fittings to the existing ones, it makes it more expensive and complicated to maintain. Even if a new franchisee refurbs the existing trains it makes sense to do them all together rather than have a small set of different layouts.

 

[Trains06]

Crewe could fit 11 coaches on 1, 5, 6, 11 and 12 (the ones Pendo's use now)... They could nearly get two 11-cars on 12!

I thought Stafford could get 15 though I might be thinking of elsewhere!

Earlier in thread people were talking about Euston, have had to get my track-maps out for this last one but according to this the only three platforms which couldn't fit one are 9, 10 and 17a - 18 can get 12 according to this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I find it quite shocking that nothing has been changed (or shall I say, rectified).
Surely Virgin and Alstom will have learnt from these mistakes, and will have corrected them in the new Pendolinos?

Virgin didn't order these new Pendos, the DfT did.

If the platform extensions are anything like what is going on at Warrington, where it looks more like the rebuilding of all four platforms, it will mean very limited passenger space for months yet.

I expect an 11-car introduction plan will be worked out for the franchise extension period starting next April (before the new franchise proper starts in December 2012).
You can't suddenly introduce 31 extended 11-car trains overnight.

Still no news that Virgin Trains will be in charge for that period (though Virgin Rail Projects will certainly be managing the 11-car programme for the DfT, whatever the operator).

 

[The Planner]

With the platform extensions being done for 11 cars, no signals or pointwork have been touched...

They need to move a signal at the end of Wolves P2.

 

[FrozenPoints]

NOTE: Entire Pendolino refresh to happen in 2013.

So major changes may kick in then

NEW PENDOLINOS:

As many of you will know from other threads, Virgin have now introduced a new "11-car" Pendolino - 390 054 - which is temporarily 9-car.

Although I haven't been on this Pendolino yet, from what I've been told, I find it quite shocking that nothing has been changed (or shall I say, rectified).

Here are some common complaints:

• The seats are too hard!
• Not enough seats line up with the windows!
• The toilets smell!
• There isn't enough luggage space!

Surely Virgin and Alstom will have learnt from these mistakes, and will have corrected them in the new Pendolinos? Perhaps Virgin don't want to change anything - or cannot change anything - because changing the specification would dramatically increase the price of these new trains.

Nevertheless, it seems short-sighted to me. The current Pendolino's are approaching 10 years of age. Like 222's (which are newer), they will eventually have to be refurbished - quite dramatically too if the toilet problems are to be fixed.

Surely now - with the introduction of these 4 new Pendolino's - would be an opportune time to show what refurbished Pendolino's would be like? These new Pendolino's could be the "refurbished" model, with the current Pendolino's to follow in the next few years.

PLATFORM EXTENSIONS:

Virgin and the DfT continually say that 11-car Pendolino's cannot be brought into service until Platform Extension work has been completed. Why is this?

For through stations, 11-car Pendolino's could easily be brought into service without any Platform Extension work by using SDO (Selective Door Operation). For terminus stations, 11-car Pendolino's could be brought into service by extending platforms to accommodate 10-car trains and by using SDO. (Most terminus stations - such as London Euston - already seem to be capable of accommodating 10-car trains since they can accommodate 10-car doubled-up Super Voyagers.)

I have attached a diagram to explain what I mean. At through stations, passengers in Coach A and Coach K would only have to walk a distance of less than one metre - i.e. into the next carriage - to exit the train. They'd only have to enter the carriage, not walk through it. How hard can it be!?

For terminus stations that can accommodate 10-car trains, passengers in Coach A or Coach K would have to do the same thing to exit the train.

Does anyone know of any reasons for why this cannot be done? Or at least why Virgin or the DfT don't want to do it? It seems simple enough to me - and extremely cost effective.

Also note that, as shown in the diagram, I think that on 11-car Pendolino's the First Class Quiet Coach can be switched back to being the first First Class carriage after Standard Class. There would be no pantograph above the carriage, and staff wouldn't have to pass through the carriage, creating less noise. On an 11-car Pendolino with 7 Standard Class carriages, I think it will be very rare for First Class to be declassified.

 

[Skimble19]

The franchise has no safety case for 11-car SDO. It's not going to happen until the new franchise.

And the new Pendos were ordered to EXACTLY the same specification to keep costs down, hence the radio sets in seats etc. The only changes are the bin door designs and no holders for the hotline magazine due to parts not being manufactured anymore.

What do you want them to do about seat/window alignment exactly? If they take out the seats, they reduce capacity. Not ideal.

They've really still actually put the radios in the seats?!

 

[krisk]

The franchise has no safety case for 11-car SDO. It's not going to happen until the new franchise.

And the new Pendos were ordered to EXACTLY the same specification to keep costs down, hence the radio sets in seats etc. The only changes are the bin door designs and no holders for the hotline magazine due to parts not being manufactured anymore.

What do you want them to do about seat/window alignment exactly? If they take out the seats, they reduce capacity. Not ideal.

The new franchise owner must inherit the trains so that the specification is uniformed hence why at seat audio is fitted. Maybe people might want it back, if your ipod battery dies its a free source of entertainment.

Magazine holders are fitted now. Fit the ONBoard mag perfectly

Totally agree about capacity, if you travel and just want to sleep or watch a film, are you even bothered about seat to window alignment?

If there was one thing i'd like to have seen it would be plug sockets at each seat, even if it was window seat only.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

NEW PENDOLINOS:

As many of you will know from other threads, Virgin have now introduced a new "11-car" Pendolino - 390 054 - which is temporarily 9-car.

Although I haven't been on this Pendolino yet, from what I've been told, I find it quite shocking that nothing has been changed (or shall I say, rectified).

Here are some common complaints:

• The seats are too hard!
• Not enough seats line up with the windows!
• The toilets smell!
• There isn't enough luggage space!

Surely Virgin and Alstom will have learnt from these mistakes, and will have corrected them in the new Pendolinos? Perhaps Virgin don't want to change anything - or cannot change anything - because changing the specification would dramatically increase the price of these new trains.

Nevertheless, it seems short-sighted to me. The current Pendolino's are approaching 10 years of age. Like 222's (which are newer), they will eventually have to be refurbished - quite dramatically too if the toilet problems are to be fixed.

SEATS : No one has ever said to me they find the pendo seats uncomfortable. They are the design they are for a reason.

SEATS/WINDOW : Is this just a pendo issue or does it apply to voyagers too, 185s etc. Do people want a view? If you want to sleep does it matter? If any window related issue was to apply to a 390 I would say the windows are too small for my liking. In an ideal world every carriage would be table seat with its own window but capacity matters here.

TOILETS : I have worked 390 054 three days this week and on none of these occasions has there been any smelly toilets. You state you have not travelled on it yet so where do you base this assumption? On a long journey the toilet cubicles stay as clean as the people who use them and at every terminating station they are cleaned and mopped.

LUGGAGE SPACE : Here is where we do agree but what is the compromise here? Less seats? Even if you enhanced the luggage racks it would not be enough on certain routes. Do we then charge for excess luggage? Yes ok the space in coach A is an option but that is there to hold bikes, what if you wish to board with a bike and hold a reservation only to find its full of suitcases. If you took a third of a carriage out and said here is where you store your luggage, someone somewhere would feel that that is 25-30 less seats you
could be providing instead.

Your posts on here come across as very anti VWC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And finally no one has mentioned the lack of phone signal enhancement and no wifi....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

ALR? Anti-VWC? He's your biggest fan!

 

[All Line Rover]

SEATS : No one has ever said to me they find the pendo seats uncomfortable. They are the design they are for a reason.

SEATS/WINDOW : Is this just a pendo issue or does it apply to voyagers too, 185s etc. Do people want a view? If you want to sleep does it matter? If any window related issue was to apply to a 390 I would say the windows are too small for my liking. In an ideal world every carriage would be table seat with its own window but capacity matters here.

TOILETS : I have worked 390 054 three days this week and on none of these occasions has there been any smelly toilets. You state you have not travelled on it yet so where do you base this assumption? On a long journey the toilet cubicles stay as clean as the people who use them and at every terminating station they are cleaned and mopped.

LUGGAGE SPACE : Here is where we do agree but what is the compromise here? Less seats? Even if you enhanced the luggage racks it would not be enough on certain routes. Do we then charge for excess luggage? Yes ok the space in coach A is an option but that is there to hold bikes, what if you wish to board with a bike and hold a reservation only to find its full of suitcases. If you took a third of a carriage out and said here is where you store your luggage, someone somewhere would feel that that is 25-30 less seats you
could be providing instead.

Your posts on here come across as very anti VWC

Evidently you have not read many of my posts in other threads (anti VWC indeed! ). You also seem to be ignoring the majority of customer feedback.

SEATS: The seats are uncomfortable. Mallard seats are MUCH better. Have you ever traveled on those? There is no "reason" for uncomfortable seats.

SEATS/WINDOW: Yes, the majority of people (not just 60%!) do want a view. If you look at Virgin's seating plan (http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf) you will see that the problem is far worse on Pendolinos than on Voyagers (in Standard Class, of course). I can't think of any other train in the UK that has fewer seats aligning to windows.

Generally I am happy with Virgin's Pendolinos because I travel on fairly quiet trains (less than 70% full) where I am free to take my pick for a seat. I would not be happy if I traveled on a rammed London to Glasgow train, where I was forced to seat in an uncomfortable seat with no window view for 5 hours!

TOILETS: I am glad that the toilet problem seems to have been fixed on the new Pendolino - I never said that I hadn't. I base my comment on the "current" Pendolinos, some of which have a serious problem with smelly toilets. If you think this is a "normal" problem, I suggest that you travel on some other trains - such as HST's!

To me you seem to be one of the fairly arrogant Virgin Trains staff (a few of which I have seen on the Manchester>London route) who completely ignore customer feedback and say that nothing can be improved - there is always room for improvement!

 

[ainsworth74]

SEATS/WINDOW : Is this just a pendo issue or does it apply to voyagers too, 185s etc.

Pretty sure nearly every seat on a 185 has a window (there might be one or two that don't across the entire train) it's the reason why the windows on 185s are funny shapes it's to make the seats on the inside line up with the windows.

 

[MCR247]

Pendolinos just have thick pillars in between windows as part of the designs