Virgin Trains West Coast - a more holistic approach

[joke2711]

I regularly travel on the 17:33 London Euston to Liverpool followed by the 2003 from Liverpool Low Level to West Kirby. This allows an 11 minute connection time at Lime Street.

This is a great service for Delay Repay as if the arrival at Liverpool is 5 minutes late, there is next to no chance of making the connection, so my ultimate arrival is always half an hour late.

I was booked on this service yesterday - first class advance at a cost of £140 - London to West Kirby. My appointment finished earlier than anticipated and I arrived at Euston at 1645. I went to the ticket office and asked if I could travel on the 1707 and this would ensure connection and was happy to pay an admin fee. Virgin said I could travel on the service as a standard class passenger for £10, but to remain in 1st class it would cost another £100. I politely declined their offer and went to the first class lounge to await the 1733 departure. You can guess what happens, this train is late again by 9 minutes and I now have a delay repay claim for £70.

I know that to change a ticket it is the cost of the walk up fare minus fare paid plus admin fee but really, they could have had an extra £10 but have cost themselves £70. It really is limited foresight ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't shout too much about this, as they'll just arrange for the minimum connection time to be increased. Realistically, the standard minimum 5 minutes is not enough far too often (an IC train 4 minutes late isn't considered late), and an increase to 10 minutes across the network, and 15/20 in this sort of case, would save them a load of money.

 

[sheff1]

I know that to change a ticket it is the cost of the walk up fare minus fare paid plus admin fee but really, they could have had an extra £10 but have cost themselves £70. It really is limited foresight ...

It is not just Virgin who do not seem to look at the bigger picture.

I have been refused permission to travel on earlier, but late running, trains with both East Coast (pre Virgin) and Cross Country where doing so would have ensured my connection onto services which were only hourly. In both cases waiting for the booked trains, which were known to be late running at the time I asked, meant I missed the connection and so was entitled to 100% Delay Repay. EC & XC were clearly happier to effectively refund the full cost of my tickets than let me travel on a different train which would have cost them no compensation whatsoever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have been refused permission to travel on earlier, but late running, trains with both East Coast (pre Virgin) and Cross Country where doing so would have ensured my connection onto services which were only hourly. In both cases waiting for the booked trains, which were known to be late running at the time I asked, meant I missed the connection and so was entitled to 100% Delay Repay. EC & XC were clearly happier to effectively refund the full cost of my tickets than let me travel on a different train which would have cost them no compensation whatsoever.

Similarly, I've ended up with long-distance taxis at some cost to the railway when I've missed a last train due to a cancelled or heavily delayed connecting train, where a very short and low-cost taxi journey at the start would have caused the last longer-distance train not to be missed.

There really does need to be a better overall view of this sort of thing, with a presumption to minimising overall railway cost and passenger delay (which tend to be the same thing, not to mention the improved goodwill from a better solution for the passenger).

 

[Hadders]

It's unfortunate that you weren't allowed to travel on the earlier train but VT are stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one.

Where do you draw the line? What if someone has a 15 minute connection at New Street, or a 12 minutes at Preston. If you're not careful it becomes a free for all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where do you draw the line? What if someone has a 15 minute connection at New Street, or a 12 minutes at Preston. If you're not careful it becomes a free for all.

In my view, if you are at a station on your booked itinerary (or with a "legal" connection planned, howsoever short, on a walk-up ticket[1]), and you will miss a connection if you stick with your booked itinerary, but by taking a train by the same TOC[2] from that station that is an option you would not miss your booked connection, it is to me obvious that you should be permitted to have your ticket endorsed to take that train at no extra cost. That's not a "free for all", it's basic, simple good customer service to (a) save the railway Delay Repay money, and more importantly (b) to make up for the fact that the railway has, for whatever reason, failed to operate the advertised service.

Crikey, easyJet will let you take an earlier flight home free if there's seats, even if you are on a bargain basement ticket. That's good customer service.

It is simply ridiculous and bad customer service for the railway to dogmatically insist on you taking your booked connection where, for no cost to itself, it could change your itinerary and allow you to arrive at the specified time.

[1] Obviously this would only occur at the end of a peak, but could include travel via an otherwise non-Permitted route.
[2] Easier to account for and will cover most bases. Any TOC would be even better.

 

[londonbridge]

Back in 2014 I went to Sunderland for a Saturday 12.45 lunchtime kick-off (thanks BT Sport)! Had an advance on the 15.29 Grand Central back to London which was cancelled. Was told to go to Newcastle and take the 16.26 East Coast. Got to Newcastle in time for the 15.59 East Coast but wasn't allowed to travel on it despite my arguing that doing so would get me back to Kings X at more or less my original scheduled arrival time, meaning no delay compensation would be payable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back in 2014 I went to Sunderland for a Saturday 12.45 lunchtime kick-off (thanks BT Sport)! Had an advance on the 15.29 Grand Central back to London which was cancelled. Was told to go to Newcastle and take the 16.26 East Coast. Got to Newcastle in time for the 15.59 East Coast but wasn't allowed to travel on it despite my arguing that doing so would get me back to Kings X at more or less my original scheduled arrival time, meaning no delay compensation would be payable.

And that is utterly preposterous, however you look at it. The railway, at no cost to itself, could have solved your problem. It preferred to lose money *and* delay you. Madness.

 

[Hadders]

In my view, if you are at a station on your booked itinerary (or with a "legal" connection planned, howsoever short, on a walk-up ticket[1]), and you will miss a connection if you stick with your booked itinerary, but by taking a train by the same TOC[2] from that station that is an option you would not miss your booked connection, it is to me obvious that you should be permitted to have your ticket endorsed to take that train at no extra cost. That's not a "free for all", it's basic, simple good customer service to (a) save the railway Delay Repay money, and more importantly (b) to make up for the fact that the railway has, for whatever reason, failed to operate the advertised service.

Crikey, easyJet will let you take an earlier flight home free if there's seats, even if you are on a bargain basement ticket. That's good customer service.

[1] Obviously this would only occur at the end of a peak, but could include travel via an otherwise non-Permitted route.
[2] Easier to account for and will cover most bases.

Hmmm. There's a huge loophole here.

Anyone travelling, say, London to Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow etc. would be advised to book to a station just beyond their destination. This would then give them the 'flexibility' to take an earlier train than the booked one, for little or no extra cost.

Yes, there is a risk that delay repay may need to be paid but I suspect there would be a greater risk once people got wind.

I know that technically finishing short isn't allowed but in these circumstances it's practically unenforceable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone travelling, say, London to Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow etc. would be advised to book to a station just beyond their destination. This would then give them the 'flexibility' to take an earlier train than the booked one, for little or no extra cost.

Only if their train was delayed, at which point the railway is not honouring their original offer (even if it may be non-contractual) so I have no problem whatsoever with this. If a passenger's train is delayed, and the delay to the overall journey can be avoided by taking an earlier train, it should be permitted to do so provided the ticket is endorsed before travel. Full stop. If that causes the railway problems, it needs to put more effort into not delaying trains.

Anything else is dogmatic adherence to rules at the expense of common sense. Even low-cost airlines such as easyJet, long fans of strict and confusing rules, realise that.

 

[Starmill]

Not so long back I was booked to be travelling from London to Nottingham via Grantham on a Kings Cross - Newark train that was cancelled. I was at King's Cross half an hour before the booked train and when it was advertised cancelled would have had enough time to catch an EMT service to Nottingham and arrive there 40 minutes early! Instead, I was forced to catch the following GR service to Grantham, which meant arriving in Nottingham an hour and 5 minutes late.

The railway does itself no favors at times. Instead of making arrangements with another train company to carry disrupted passengers, they enforce delays which they then become liable to pay back 100% of the fares people paid - and in cash now as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway does itself no favors at times. Instead of making arrangements with another train company to carry disrupted passengers, they enforce delays which they then become liable to pay back 100% of the fares people paid - and in cash now as well.

Exactly.

The presumption should be to get the passenger to their destination as close to the published time as possible. Only if that proves impossible should Delay Repay kick in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I know that to change a ticket it is the cost of the walk up fare minus fare paid plus admin fee but really, they could have had an extra £10 but have cost themselves £70. It really is limited foresight ...

Despite today's "claim all you can" culture, I can't think why the railway owes you anything for being 9 minutes late.
That's not bad for a typical day on the WCML.
I doubt Ryanair, or your local bus company, would give you anything back.
Other passengers are paying for your refund.

 

[455driver]

How many would travel on the earlier train and still put in for delay repay, the railway has no way of knowing which trains you actually caught and so the passenger/customer is in a win win situation.

 

[sheff1]

Despite today's "claim all you can" culture, I can't think why the railway owes you anything for being 9 minutes late.

You might as well say that if someone is on a train which is 9 mins late at the penultimate stop but is then 30 mins late at the terminus they aren't owed anything because they were only 9 mins late at a point before the destination on their ticket. The only difference for the OP is that they had to change trains before finally reaching their destination 30 mins late.

How many would travel on the earlier train and still put in for delay repay, the railway has no way of knowing which trains you actually caught and so the passenger/customer is in a win win situation.

If the ticket was endorsed correctly any such fraudulent claims would be easily detectable.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Despite today's "claim all you can" culture, I can't think why the railway owes you anything for being 9 minutes late.
That's not bad for a typical day on the WCML.
I doubt Ryanair, or your local bus company, would give you anything back.
Other passengers are paying for your refund.

But they weren't just 9 minutes late. They were 9 minutes late at an intermediate station leading them to miss the connection and thus meaning they were significantly more late to their destination.

 

[gray1404]

If the ticket was endorsed correctly any such fraudulent claims would be easily detectable.

It is not standard practice in the railway industry in the UK to mark a ticket to state which train was used.

 

[ivanhoe]

The West Kirby train is every 15 minutes at that time. I cannot honestly understand why the OP expects compensation. A bit different if it's the last train.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The West Kirby train is every 15 minutes at that time. I cannot honestly understand why the OP expects compensation. A bit different if it's the last train.

Well, the current delay repay system allows them to claim if they are 30 minutes later than booked. I don't see why they shouldn't claim if the rules allow them to do so.

If you read the OP, they were more interested in getting home on time by catching an earlier train than getting money off their fare.

I wouldn't be surprised if train companies start to do more about this now that the refunds are cash (not RTVs which I bet many people don't even bother to use) and the delay repay is better advertised.

 

[Merseysider]

The West Kirby train is every 15 minutes at that time. I cannot honestly understand why the OP expects compensation. A bit different if it's the last train.

No, that's incorrect. After 2003 the next service for West Kirby is 2033.

 

[Dent]

It is not standard practice in the railway industry in the UK to mark a ticket to state which train was used.

Are you sure? On most Intercity journeys I have made my ticket has been stamped with information to identify the train it was used on.

Citing "standard practice" as a reason not to change a policy is a red herring. "Standard practice" is not set in stone, and can easily be changed if a policy requires something to be done differently.

I think what was suggested here is that Advance tickets should be endorsed to allow earlier travel if the booked train is delayed the customer wishes to travel earlier to mitigate the delay. In this case any endorsement on the ticket to this effect would be clearly visible if the ticket were sent with a delay compensation application.

 

[ivanhoe]

No, that's incorrect. After 2003 the next service for West Kirby is 2033.

You're correct, I misread the timetable. :cry:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I know that to change a ticket it is the cost of the walk up fare minus fare paid plus admin fee but really, they could have had an extra £10 but have cost themselves £70. It really is limited foresight ...

It's an evil game of numbers and statistics. How many people on your train would be in a position to claim? How many of those would know that they can claim? How many of those would actually claim? How many people, having arrived early, would be willing to pay to get home early?

From your own figures, if one other person was travelling first class to West Kirby and decided to pay up to go early, the railway might have lost £70 for you, but they may also have gained £100 from the other person, net result £30 gained. The 'bigger picture' can be quite big.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From your own figures, if one other person was travelling first class to West Kirby and decided to pay up to go early, the railway might have lost £70 for you, but they may also have gained £100 from the other person, net result £30 gained. The 'bigger picture' can be quite big.

Quite possibly. But in my book if there is disruption all bets should be off, and the railway should do what it reasonably can, without charging extra, to get the passenger back on time.

Usually it does when there is major disruption, but individual passengers' disruption by way of missed connections is rarely handled even nearly as well.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Quite possibly. But in my book if there is disruption all bets should be off, and the railway should do what it reasonably can, without charging extra, to get the passenger back on time.

Usually it does when there is major disruption, but individual passengers' disruption by way of missed connections is rarely handled even nearly as well.

I think part of the issue is the hard clash on the railways between our modern "customer service" culture, where people would happily be permitted to board delayed trains with advance tickets and make reasonable alterations to their journey for the benefit of all, and the old fashioned "conditions of carriage" culture which says 'by the book only'.

The problem is that it is impossible to tell just who will take what side during an issue. A conductor might let you on board, but a ticket inspector at the other end might take a harsh line. No wonder people so often run into problems with "the man on the platform" saying one thing and someone else saying something different.

With the example above of Easyjet letting you use different flights - if the desk staff say yes you can go, then you can and will probably not be questioned again about it. You won't get half way through the flight and then be challenged by the co-pilot and forced to buy another ticket.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It is not standard practice in the railway industry in the UK to mark a ticket to state which train was used.

It is standard practice, when allowing a different train than booked to be used on an advance ticket, to mark and stamp the ticket accordingly.

 

[Hadders]

I'm all for allowing flexibility at times of disruption but this isn't what the OP was seeking.

The OP had a tight (but legal connection) at Lime Street. His meeting finished early so he wanted to get an earlier train to give more time to make the connection at Lime Street. The earlier train he wanted to get was his booked train, not the '&connections' leg.

As I said earlier, what's to stop anyone booking a ticket which involves a tight connection at the other end (preferably one with an infrequent service) and using it to gain flexibility.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Indeed. I think Neil Williams' proposal instead concerned delays to the booked train - an unrelated scenario

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's an evil game of numbers and statistics. How many people on your train would be in a position to claim? How many of those would know that they can claim? How many of those would actually claim? How many people, having arrived early, would be willing to pay to get home early?

From your own figures, if one other person was travelling first class to West Kirby and decided to pay up to go early, the railway might have lost £70 for you, but they may also have gained £100 from the other person, net result £30 gained. The 'bigger picture' can be quite big.

And now this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34424729
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...-s-first-automatic-delay-repay-system-1227929

From Saturday 3 October, travellers using its services on the West Coast mainline - and who book their tickets via the company app or website - will receive automatic repayments

Only for Advance tickets apparently, and for journeys wholly on VT.

 

[joke2711]

Despite today's "claim all you can" culture, I can't think why the railway owes you anything for being 9 minutes late.
That's not bad for a typical day on the WCML.
I doubt Ryanair, or your local bus company, would give you anything back.
Other passengers are paying for your refund.

lol in this instance I was trying to help the railway. The 1707 might have resulted in an earlier arrival home but would have guaranteed connection. I have paid £140 for a ticket and was willing to pay an admin fee for a change. By asking for an additional £100 it was a no brainer to stay on the booked train. Yes it was only 7 minutes late but I had an 11 minute connection. In those 4 minutes, I was expected to collect luggage, walk 10 coaches, and transfer to Merseyrail. I actually cleared Platform 7 at 2003 the time of my connection departure. The West Kirby line switches to an half hourly service at 1933 - so arrival was then 30 minutes late.

I don't make the rules but know I am entitled to claim - the main point of this is I offered to help VT get me home on time.

For the record, on checking the 1707 it arrived 3 minutes late as well. That delay would result in a mad rush to catch the 1933 service to West Kirby so if I had been on that train the chances are that I would have only caught my original connection at 2003 and this by paying an extra £10 to do so!