Virgin Trains to Shrewsbury

[Gareth Marston]

Quite. But until the long-awaited hourly service is instigated, there's little option for anything other than the existing "4-cars on most services between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth". (Unless you reduce the coast service to a shuttle from Machynlleth - and even that would need extra stock.)

One option is to run hourly to Machynlleth and then alternate between Pwllheli and Aberystwyth with 2 car sets - still not ideal though and east of Shrewsbury there's still a capacity crunch.

When the Cambrian was rationalised and the intermediate stations closed on the mainline and DMU's introduced in 1965 there were 12 2 car units for Cambrian trains and that was with the Morning and evening mail and UP & DOWN Cambrian Coast Express still steam hauled. Today there's one unit scheduled to be stabled at Pwllheli overnight and a further 7 units needed off Mach depot.

 

[dk1]

One option is to run hourly to Machynlleth and then alternate between Pwllheli and Aberystwyth with 2 car sets - still not ideal though and east of Shrewsbury there's still a capacity crunch.

When the Cambrian was rationalised and the intermediate stations closed on the mainline and DMU's introduced in 1965 there were 12 2 car units for Cambrian trains and that was with the Morning and evening mail and UP & DOWN Cambrian Coast Express still steam hauled. Today there's one unit scheduled to be stabled at Pwllheli overnight and a further 7 units needed off Mach depot.

That is fascinating. Goes to show how squeezed resources are these days and with growing passenger numbers. I can speak from experience of very well loaded 4-car trains on this route.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is fascinating. Goes to show how squeezed resources are these days and with growing passenger numbers. I can speak from experience of very well loaded 4-car trains on this route.

Even with reduced journey times that haven't translated into extra trains the 8 train a day now between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury are the same number as run then.

I would say that seats per day between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton were greater back in 1992 with they still had InterCity services, a lot of the demand and pressure for restoring through trains revolves around crowding issues on ATW and LM. Around 10 years ago the 0514 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL got named as one of the busiest regional services when it was 2 car, its been 4 for a few years now but as anyone who travels on it east of Telford will tell you its still packed to the gunwhales. Its equivalent in 1992 was the 0730 Shrewsbury - Euston a full length rake of West Coast MK2's and in the evening peak the 1730 from New St was a Euston- Shrewsbury service. It was serving two markets, through trains to London and additional capacity between Birmingham and Shropshire - the current VT mess about does nothing for capacity.

 

[jimm]

Not quite true.
Once the Pendos/Voyagers were introduced there was not enough stock for excursions to Blackpool/Shrewsbury.
Even Holyhead had to have a hybrid service with 57 haulage for a while.
The difference today is the 4 new Pendolinos, which have given VT some new (limited) options.
The planned services are also entirely at VT risk.
Despite various ministerial statements, these routes are not part of the franchise spec.

If poor old Virgin was so short of stock, then tell me how it was that when W&S was starting up, it was able to magically find enough Voyagers for its proposed service via Nuneaton and round the houses in the West Midlands to Shrewsbury. And whose fault was it that not enough of the too short Voyagers were built?

The - now not - planned services were near useless given the times they were supposed to run - and whether or not they are in the franchise, the pressure for them has come from DfT, as I say, because of the franchise fiasco, when, for a few brief weeks, the people of Shropshire thought they were going to get a through service again from First Group.

The idea that this is Sir Richard riding to the rescue of poor old Shropshire just won't wash.

 

[dk1]

If poor old Virgin was so short of stock, then tell me how it was that when W&S was starting up, it was able to magically find enough Voyagers for its proposed service via Nuneaton and round the houses in the West Midlands to Shrewsbury. And whose fault was it that not enough of the too short Voyagers were built?

The - now not - planned services were near useless given the times they were supposed to run - and whether or not they are in the franchise, the pressure for them has come from DfT, as I say, because of the franchise fiasco, when, for a few brief weeks, the people of Shropshire thought they were going to get a through service again from First Group.

The idea that this is Sir Richard riding to the rescue of poor old Shropshire just won't wash.

Virgin have since upped the game on the Brum-Scotland route by extending & incorporating it into the EBW to cope with overwhelming demand for the improved service using double Voyagers & Pendos as well as improving the fast Euston to Glasgow Pendos to hourly all day almost every day for the first time. Costly drags have also been eliminated from the NW Coast. Let's hope NR don't let Virgin down & re-allow them to use the xx.33 down paths as was the original plan.

 

[jimm]

Virgin have since upped the game on the Brum-Scotland route by extending & incorporating it into the EBW to cope with overwhelming demand for the improved service using double Voyagers & Pendos as well as improving the fast Euston to Glasgow Pendos to hourly all day almost every day for the first time. Costly drags have also been eliminated from the NW Coast. Let's hope NR don't let Virgin down & re-allow them to use the xx.33 down paths as was the original plan.

Which has what to do with a service to Shrewsbury? All you are describing is changes made to existing Virgin routes. The point I am making is that Virgin really isn't at all bothered with Shrewsbury unless it think it makes it look good - initial franchise bidding back in the 1990s, resulting in all of one year of a through service, and again two years ago when it knew rival bidders were almost bound to offer to go to Shrewsbury, or when there was the threat of competition for Virgin's slice of revenue on Shropshire-London tickets in the shape of W&S.

March marks 17 years of Virgin operation of the West Coast, during which time it has served Shropshire stations for all of one year. Says it all.

 

[dk1]

It does say to me that demand is not really there to sustain a direct Intercity link with London. It all seems like a lot of pain for very little gain. I would still favour Blackpool once it's electrified with maybe a token Voyager service to start the ball rolling again.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I believe that direct links are hugely valued in the UK because of the problems associated with changing trains - long waits at unwelcoming stations, missed connections, the concerns about not getting a seat (or seats together) when changing onto a connecting service. Much has been written on this forum, for example, about the very poor connections at Shrewsbury.

In countries where the railways have better reliability and capacity, changing trains is not seen as an issue: a journey in Switzerland, for example, involving four or five changes of train en route is not perceived as an inconvenience because the connections will almost always be cross-platform transfers of a few minutes and there will always be sufficient seats free on every train.

Rather than giving in to demands for direct services between every conceivable pair of cities, the industry should be striving to make connections less stressful for the passenger. It will take a while for the entrenched perception to catch up with the reality, but eventually people will come to accept changes of train without trepidation.

I think there would always be certain groups of people such as families with children and elderly or disabled people who would prefer the comfort/convenience of a direct service and who would be put off having to change (because of the negotiating of stairs/escalators between platforms), whereas with a direct service, once you're on the train, you know that you're on it.

Yes, W&S did fail, and we all know the reasons, but there were a fair number of leisure travellers such as families who did go for the comfort/convenience of a slower direct service as opposed to a faster journey time on a direct service. I think there are families who might choose to use the train if there was a direct service, but end up driving instead if there wasn't.

The lack of Saturday service on the (now cancelled) plan seems a major mistake to me, because then I think there would be a market for daytrippers (especially families) going to see the London Eye, etc.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think there would always be certain groups of people such as families with children and elderly or disabled people who would prefer the comfort/convenience of a direct service and who would be put off having to change (because of the negotiating of stairs/escalators between platforms), whereas with a direct service, once you're on the train, you know that you're on it.

Yes, W&S did fail, and we all know the reasons, but there were a fair number of leisure travellers such as families who did go for the comfort/convenience of a slower direct service as opposed to a faster journey time on a direct service. I think there are families who might choose to use the train if there was a direct service, but end up driving instead if there wasn't.

Many industry planners are obsessed with speed and pay little regard to price. Yes, a few (expense account) passengers must get there NOW and will pay ANYTHING to do so. For the rest of us, a compromise of price / speed / quality applies.

As mentioned above some people are happy for a slightly slower service if it avoids having to making a connection (e.g. difficulties transferring luggage, children, elderly, disabilities, uncertainty of seat on second train). The Cross-Country network, in BR days, was established on that basis.

Similarly, lots of people value a lower fare, and are willing to accept a (much)slower journey in exchange. Hence London Midland trains up the Trent Valley
being well used. Virgin Euston to Stoke 90 minutes, London Midland 150 minutes but lots of people use the latter, despite being overtaken by two faster trains en-route. This turns on its head established thinking that people will pay more for faster journeys. Time to build LS1 and LS2 - a slower line but with much lower fares

 

[gordonthemoron]

the trouble with the LM services on Trent Valley, is they're too popular and standing room only, need doubling up asap

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is fascinating. Goes to show how squeezed resources are these days and with growing passenger numbers. I can speak from experience of very well loaded 4-car trains on this route.

The Summer Saturday Manchester to Mid Wales service remained and turned up with an Electric Electric type 3 hauling it - theirs pictures on web as well as other Saturdays only turns and steam hauled freight.

 

[D1009]

My take on this is that too many people are bound up in the existing situation without looking long term. We should be looking at the Birmingham - Shrewsbury route and asking whether the capacity is being used in the right way. Yes there will probably have to be two stoppers per hour to Wolverhampton and one from there to Shrewsbury, but are the other paths actually the best use of capacity? Are we using them for the flows generating the most business? Is having a through regular Euston - Shrewsbury service going to be more beneficial than the through Birmingham - Aberystwyth/Chester service, or any of the other trains that use Birmingham - Wolverhampton? Personally I'm not a fan of a token service via the Oxley chord and Stafford.

 

[Zoidberg]

Well, the latest, apparently, is that:

Rail bosses have indicated they support the idea of a twice-daily direct rail service between Shropshire and London being introduced from December.

...

Shrewsbury and Atcham MP Daniel Kawczynski said on Twitter that the parties have agreed in principle to the introduction of a daily service, subject to approval from the Office of Rail Regulation.

He said it is intended trains would leave Shrewsbury at 6.39am and 3.24pm each day, with services going in the opposite direction from London to Shropshire at 10.23am and 6.23pm.

From http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...s-over-shropshire-to-london-direct-rail-link/

It'll no doubt please some and be of no use at all to others.

 

[dave_wm]

Suggests the proposed trains will be extensions of Euston - Birmingham / Wolverhampton services;

The 0639 ex-Shrewsbury would seem to fit into being an extension of the 0725 Wolverhampton to Euston (1R21), though would presumably require the 0633 from Shrewsbury (0530 from Chester - 1G30) to be retimed slightly earlier as far as Wolverhampton.

The 1524 ex-Shrewsbury would presumably be an extension of the 1630 Birmingham New Street to Euston (1B68), at around 1605 from Wolverhampton.

The 1023 ex-Euston would be an extension of a Birmingham service, presumably back in its old path of 1149-ish from Birmingham to Wolverhampton, then extending through to Shrewsbury for an arrival at about 1250-ish.

The 1823 ex-Euston would be an extension of a service which presently terminates at Wolverhampton, with a Shrewsbury arrival at about 2050-ish.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, the latest, apparently, is that:
From http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...s-over-shropshire-to-london-direct-rail-link/
It'll no doubt please some and be of no use at all to others.

If true, the paths have changed.
Previously VT were talking about the spare nn33 paths out of Euston.
The 1023 currently terminates at Birmingham, the 1823 at Wolverhampton.
Maybe the plan is now an extension of Birmingham services rather than the exotic route via Stafford.

 

[The Planner]

Wondered when this would leak out, they are extensions of EBWs.

 

[swt_passenger]

A little knowledge is dangerous, look at this part of a comment below the article:

The Virgin answer is to extend the Wolverhampton to London Service to Shrewsbury using dual mode Class 800 intercity express trains. Problem is they have not yet been ordered and the existing orders are for the Great Western Main Line, East Coast Main Line, And a few services in East Anglia...

Total fiction. Er... think about the Voyagers eh?

 

[Rich McLean]

Exentions in my view would make this service viable, as it would provide extra trains into Birmingham in the morning peak from Shrewsbury

 

[Gareth Marston]

A little knowledge is dangerous, look at this part of a comment below the article:



Total fiction. Er... think about the Voyagers eh?

Certainly no one I know of RUG wise in Shropshire is advising or going with these MP's therefore you could say anything to them.

 

[Proud Salopian]

The new times seem far more sensible.

 

[transmanche]

The new times seem far more sensible.

So it's down to the people of Shrewsbury, Telford and surrounding areas to actually use the service and prove that all this has been worth it!

 

[Proud Salopian]

Well, it's also in part up to how Virgin treat the new service, eg will there be any catering/first class, what will ticket prices be, etc. Wrexham & Shropshire ticked all the boxes in terms of price and service, but had rubbish journey times (not their fault of course). If Virgin can provide the service and the speed, then it will be well used.

 

[D1009]

Well, it's also in part up to how Virgin treat the new service, eg will there be any catering/first class, what will ticket prices be, etc. Wrexham & Shropshire ticked all the boxes in terms of price and service, but had rubbish journey times (not their fault of course). If Virgin can provide the service and the speed, then it will be well used.

I don't think Virgin discriminate in their service provision on grounds of location, I presume there's first class and catering on the service from Wrexham via Chester?

 

[headshot119]

There is however the shop in the Wrexham portion doesn't open until after departure from Chester.

 

[Class 92]

It looks like it runs through to Crewe in these timings.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

 

[Zoidberg]

It looks like it runs through to Crewe in these timings.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

You've confused me. I'm not clear about what relevance those 21st May services have to the discussion.

And in saying that, I'm not having a dig, I just don't understand.

 

[IrishDave]

It looks like it runs through to Crewe in these timings.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

Those are the timings for the previously proposed service via Stafford, offered for the May TT change, which Virgin rejected; for some reason they're still in the system even though Virgin have no plans to run them. Now, Virgin are looking for extensions of services via Birmingham from December.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Those are the timings for the previously proposed service via Stafford, offered for the May TT change, which Virgin rejected; for some reason they're still in the system even though Virgin have no plans to run them. Now, Virgin are looking for extensions of services via Birmingham from December.

On the new timings being discussed, the afternoon Voyagers will still probably run Shrewsbury-Crewe between turns.
If Blackpool is still in the mix, it will probably get tagged on to Chester services at Crewe.

 

[Class 92]

Those are the timings for the previously proposed service via Stafford, offered for the May TT change, which Virgin rejected; for some reason they're still in the system even though Virgin have no plans to run them. Now, Virgin are looking for extensions of services via Birmingham from December.

Oh right, thanks.

 

[NickJ]

I understand that Virgin trains are route training the Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton route today (hopefully in preparation for the new direct Shropshire-London service in December). A Voyager is expected at Wellington station at 16-16pm this afternoon.