Virgin trains to Brighton

[yorkie]

I think its really harsh everyone saying Gatwick isnt an important destination

Only one person actually said that. And he's right in a way - it's not important as a destination in its own right, only to connect to a flight. But how many people are going to travel from Birmingham to catch a plane from Gatwick, when they have nearer airports to fly from? And people can still do that, with a straightforward change at London (either a short walk/taxi to St Pancras, or a direct frequent Victoria Line train to Victoria) anyway.

infact its the second busiest in Britain.

Not true, it's the 10th busiest station in Britain (Source). However I suspect you meant to say it's the 2nd busiest airport in Britain.

travelled from kings cross to sandy 8 cars and i was the only person in my car.

travelled from gatwick to victoria 10 cars and i was the only person in my car (apart from one other forum member, and a ticket inspector for about 5 minutes who initially denied that the train was operated by Southern, then admitted it was )

(Neither statement actually proves anything, however the RUS for the Brighton Mainline route makes very interesting reading when it comes to Gatwick!)

 

[ValleyLines142]

But would anyone really travel on a Cross Country train to Gatwick in order to travel to Southampton, Portsmouth, Bognor Regis or Bedford?

You can discount Bedford straight away as it would be doubling back between East Croydon and Gatwick, and I think that Reading to Gatwick (via the slow lines - ouch) to Southampton/Portsmouth would be quite bizarre; only an enthusiast wanting to do eccentric routes would do that. Bognor Regis... hmm, maybe, though I can't see much demand there.

I'm not saying that anyone would travel on a CrossCountry service to Gatwick in order to travel to these destinations, but I just found it surprising still. Most of these services can be reached from Brighton anyway, but I thought Gatwick could have been kept on the network because it could have gone fast through Guildford to Reading (if possible) and up from there. Guildford still remains it's daily service, in a realistic world is this actually needed, with a simple change at Reading nearby. I think the daily Guildford could be pushed further back to Gatwick.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm not saying that anyone would travel on a CrossCountry service to Gatwick in order to travel to these destinations, but I just found it surprising still. Most of these services can be reached from Brighton anyway, but I thought Gatwick could have been kept on the network because it could have gone fast through Guildford to Reading (if possible) and up from there. Guildford still remains it's daily service, in a realistic world is this actually needed, with a simple change at Reading nearby. I think the daily Guildford could be pushed further back to Gatwick.

So, to tie in with current Guildford runs, 2340 into Gatwick, leaving there at 0515 the next morning. Don't forget that stock needs to get back to Eastleigh, so no, not very likely. Running through Guildford non-stop would be stupid, I suspect there is a lot of money there.

 

[ValleyLines142]

So, to tie in with current Guildford runs, 2340 into Gatwick, leaving there at 0515 the next morning. Don't forget that stock needs to get back to Eastleigh, so no, not very likely. Running through Guildford non-stop would be stupid, I suspect there is a lot of money there.

It doesn't necessarily have to leave Gatwick at 0515 from the old timetable, could be a slightly later service. And I never mentioned anything about running through Guildford non-stop. I thought a Gatwick - Guildford - Reading and up service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It doesn't necessarily have to leave Gatwick at 0515 from the old timetable, could be a slightly later service. And I never mentioned anything about running through Guildford non-stop. I thought a Gatwick - Guildford - Reading and up service.

To tie in with any chance of having stock available to run it it must, 2259 into Guildford and 0602 off in the morning.

Post 123 implies running non-stop via Guildford.

 

[ValleyLines142]

To tie in with any chance of having stock available to run it it must, 2259 into Guildford and 0602 off in the morning.

Post 123 implies running non-stop via Guildford.

Oh, I forgot about the 0602 from Guildford. Maybe so.

Sorry, I wasn't clear there, I meant still call at Guildford, but go fast to Gatwick, without calling at East Croydon and Kensington like they used to.

 

[Eagle]

Oh, I forgot about the 0602 from Guildford. Maybe so.

Sorry, I wasn't clear there, I meant still call at Guildford, but go fast to Gatwick, without calling at East Croydon and Kensington like they used to.

You're conflating two different services there. In 2008 it was

1tpd each way Reading, Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Brighton.

1tpd each way Reading, Olympia, East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Brighton.

 

[ValleyLines142]

You're conflating two different services there. In 2008 it was

1tpd each way Reading, Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Brighton.

1tpd each way Reading, Olympia, East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Brighton.

I didn't even know it called at Guildford. But whatever the case a Gatwick - Guildford could be possible.

 

[ushawk]

As ive posted already, it isnt possible - the stock needs to run back to Eastleigh as drivers need to know the route via Havant for diversions - extending it to Gatwick removes the working via that route so there isnt any way for drivers to retain knowledge of the route, so if there is a problem at say Micheldever, then XC are basically buggered.

That and if it was to go to Gatwick, where would the stock go ECS afterwards ?

And i saw a post saying the FGW extensions to Brighton should be stopped - these services are frequently busy and probably make FGW a bit of money (maybe not the PMH - BTN, but thats only really a journey to get the stock into Brighton).

 

[Eagle]

That and if it was to go to Gatwick, where would the stock go ECS afterwards ?

Three Bridges, like they used to?

 

[ValleyLines142]

As ive posted already, it isnt possible - the stock needs to run back to Eastleigh as drivers need to know the route via Havant for diversions - extending it to Gatwick removes the working via that route so there isnt any way for drivers to retain knowledge of the route, so if there is a problem at say Micheldever, then XC are basically buggered.

That and if it was to go to Gatwick, where would the stock go ECS afterwards ?

And i saw a post saying the FGW extensions to Brighton should be stopped - these services are frequently busy and probably make FGW a bit of money (maybe not the PMH - BTN, but thats only really a journey to get the stock into Brighton).

Fair enough.

 

[Minstral25]

So, to tie in with current Guildford runs, 2340 into Gatwick, leaving there at 0515 the next morning. Don't forget that stock needs to get back to Eastleigh, so no, not very likely. Running through Guildford non-stop would be stupid, I suspect there is a lot of money there.

23:40 into Gatwick - not exactly convenient to catch a plane?

5:15 from Gatwick - only a few overnight planes that land will connect with that

Service won't be very busy then!!

 

[TEW]

There are 2tpd (one diagram) to/from Brighton by FGW Monday to Saturday:

0701 PMH–BTN
0859 BTN–GMV
1050 GMV–BTN
1659 BTN–BRI

That's actually two diagrams, the 0859 BTN-GMV and the 1050 GMV-BTN pass at Bristol Temple Meads. And as someone mentioned above, the FGW services to Brighton are very busy. They are still useful services, and it isn't just local traffic, a lot of people use them from beyond Southampton, the main appeal of the service being that it's direct.

 

[ushawk]

Three Bridges, like they used to?

Thats all being re-developed now for the new Thameslink depot, theres a couple of other sidings, but these are all used by Southern.

 

[OxtedL]

If I'm going north of London, I go to London and change. Or use the motorway network. The cross country method would be incredibly unlikely as it is both slower and less frequent. So only a small demand probable.

Gatwick is apparently not a major pull from the north. Brighton might be, arguably. Either way, if you're travelling from the North it'll be quicker (and again, more frequent than cross country could ever be in these parts) to go to London and change. So only a small demand probable.

If I live off the direct route of the cross country train, I'm unlikely to use it as it will be far, far more convenient to go via London.

The best way to go to Reading, the only other real destination served (and only then, to change at Reading to go west) is via London, or via Redhill, which already has a useful service running. This service needs improving and does not need to be held back by non standard timetabling.

If the cross country trains to Brighton and Gatwick were busy, I suggest it was largely due to local journeys. A couple of trains a day are not comparably attractive to the alternatives.

You would need a big change in service patterns and destinations to generate demand for direct journeys, which would need both much faster journeys and much better frequencies than currently exist. Any such demand would be insignificant compared to the general demand for London.

Hence trains to Brighton were scrapped, freeing up capacity for other services. The FGW Brightons can't be too far off following, surely.

 

[ushawk]

I cant think of any other reasons why people would go to Brighton except for the usual pleasure and business. Maybe BHAFC being in the Championship might mean some people travelling north/south on matchdays - though that doesnt really help if Brighton play Peterborough for example.

And if the FGW to Brighton goes, i cant imagine too many people would be pleased - me included. It slots in quite well really (yes a Southern to Brighton has to go via Eastleigh, but some journeys need to go this way for route knowledge).

 

[thelem]

Since the XC services left Brighton there has been a reduction in journey times on the WCML, making changing in London even more attractive than it already was. Crossrail will add alternative connections, further reducing the potential passengers.

The FGW service is very different though - it offers a similar journey time to changing in London but avoids the premium "via London" fare. Not needing to change is a very welcome bonus. I just wish it was more frequent.

 

[TEW]

Has anybody been on the Sunday FGW services to Brighton, I wonder how busy they are running at the increased frequency they do. I can only comment for the weekday services which are well loaded.

 

[Holly]

Wouldn't it make sense to run Heathrow to Brighton through trains stopping only at Gatwick?
It would be one of those "If you build it they will come" things. Meaning more traffic than the present coaches support is possible.
I'm not sure what kind of rolling stock would work though, maybe it would have to be a custom build?

 

[ushawk]

Probably not, would basically be an Airport express which isnt useful for anyone else except those going to airports and would cart around fresh air a lot of the time and take up slots on an already congested line - rather like the Gatwick Express in many ways

 

[tempests1]

Remembering the Pompey Virgin trains service to and from exotic destinations such as Blackpool/Manchester/Liverpool (exotic to me being a Southerner!) they always seemed to run late & obviously this affected the SWT regular services which occasionally had to be terminated to facilitate the Virgin service. With the distances involved they were incur a number of delays on their journey Whats the saying When Birmingham New Street sneezes the rest of the network catches a cold! Another problem was when the Virgin had to run behind a 2P** all stations they obviously would loose a bit more time. It was particularly dire when the Class 47/8's have their rubbish failure/availabilty rate. I recall one day in 2000 when one of the down services was running about 3 hours late and had an EWS Class 37 on the front certainly put a smile on my face. It wasn't a desperately used service for a while they were running a single class 158 on it. It was good to see the HST's for a short while. Just as is the case with the Brighton Line there is no capacity to cater for a service. God Knows how bad things would have got on the Pompey Direct If Virgin had been allowed to run an hourly service as was proposed! considering once you had passed Guildford there are not a lot of locations for trains to pass

I do agree with other posters that the elderly/Parents with young children/etc etc do like the idea of being able to get a direct train with no need to change in London but these schemes can fail badly. One example is the Anglia service from Basingstoke to Anglia Places such as Witham/Colchester/Ipswich/Norwich. A good idea in theory but taking into account the lengthy trek across the North London Lines etc with the slow PSR's and large number of junctions, & the heavy amount of traffic to slot in and around it was doomed to failure. The wales & west/W&B/Arriva (I don't if had gone before they took over the francise) service from Waterloo to Fishguard/Camarthan is another example of pointless services often it ran nearly empty to Salisbury. They probably should have started the service from there. I will admit I quite liked some of the wierd and wonderful services that poped in the early privitisation era. The TOC's of the time had vision but then the likes of the SRA/ORR/Railtrack knocked it out of them.

 

[JamieFCC]

Only one person actually said that. And he's right in a way - it's not important as a destination in its own right, only to connect to a flight. But how many people are going to travel from Birmingham to catch a plane from Gatwick, when they have nearer airports to fly from? And people can still do that, with a straightforward change at London (either a short walk/taxi to St Pancras, or a direct frequent Victoria Line train to

U don't understand! There are certain Carribean, Pacifc destinations only Gatwick and Glasgow fly to.

 

[Eagle]

You don't understand! There are certain Caribbean/Pacific destinations only Gatwick and Glasgow fly to.

That's true of pretty much every airport though.

Also please stop with your childish tone, it's really starting to grate.

 

[ainsworth74]

U don't understand! There are certain Carribean, Pacifc destinations only Gatwick and Glasgow fly to.

Which wouldn't generate much rail traffic by themselves and as Yorkie says people would be more likely to take the quicker direct service to London then a the shuttle service from Victoria than an XC service to Gatwick.

I have ask, what exactly is your issue with the current service provision to Gatwick? Because to my mind the present service provision seems pretty well weighted to the needs of the market.

 

[Holly]

{Regarding a proposed Heathrow-Gatwick-Brighton through service}

Probably not, would basically be an Airport express which isn't useful for anyone else except those going to airports and would cart around fresh air a lot of the time and take up slots on an already congested line - rather like the Gatwick Express in many ways

Reportedly the Gatwick Express trains run "half full". This "cart around fresh air a lot of the time" is not a waste, it is necessary because air passengers typically have luggage and often have children and have a need to not have to compete unduly with crowded commuter trains.

Also, 100 National Express coaches a day travel between Heathrow and Gatwick. Depending on traffic it takes between 75 minutes to two hours between Heathrow and Gatwick or three hours using the Piccadilly Line (cheapest method). Which is pathetic for a journey of just 25 miles as the crow flies.

By avoiding a stop in London (between the two airports) such a train would not attract significant commuter traffic and it would be a boon to people living near Brighton and wanting to use Heathrow. The market would bear premium prices. Much of the load would be off-peak.

 

[Bald Rick]

{Regarding a proposed Heathrow-Gatwick-Brighton through service}

Also, 100 National Express coaches a day travel between Heathrow and Gatwick.

Indeed they do. Almost all of which are long distance services to Heathrow that carry on to Gatwick. I doubt very much if many people get on at Heathrow to go to Gatwick and vv.

 

[tbtc]

Indeed they do. Almost all of which are long distance services to Heathrow that carry on to Gatwick. I doubt very much if many people get on at Heathrow to go to Gatwick and vv.

Yup, the services from round here run to both airports (as well as East Midlands http://www.nationalexpress.com/destinations/timetables/240.pdf) - the fact that coaches run between the two "London" airports is no indication of any real demand to travel between them.

 

[tsr]

I think we're forgetting the proposed "Heathwick" development, as discussed a few weeks back (IIRC).

The debate is whether or not Heathrow and Gatwick should be linked by rail, and how. The government is pretty much in favour of at least looking at it seriously (again IIRC). What we are moving towards discussing in this topic is somewhat relevant. It could be that the existing or improvable infrastructure discussed here could provide an alternative to boring a massive tunnel through Surrey, which, I have to confess, I am not in favour of, and this is not a bit to do with living in the aforementioned county.

My point before (and earlier in this thread) is that the North Downs Line could be modified to have extra capacity, and provide added paths and station facilities. I have also previously pointed out (not in this thread) that you could have a link to Heathrow from somewhere west of Guildford. Admittedly you may not call at Reading, but services from Midland or Northern destinations to Heathrow and Gatwick, as well as perhaps Brighton, could be a good thing for passengers, revenue and connections, especially if these where not exclusively airport shuttles, but catered for the larger communities en-route.

 

[Southern]

{Regarding a proposed Heathrow-Gatwick-Brighton through service}

Reportedly the Gatwick Express trains run "half full". This "cart around fresh air a lot of the time" is not a waste, it is necessary because air passengers typically have luggage and often have children and have a need to not have to compete unduly with crowded commuter trains.

A significant number of airport passengers actually opt for Southern/FCC services because Gatwick Express is not only expensive but offers no great time saving when compared with its neighbouring operators. Boarding a Southern service from the East/WestCoastway at East Croydon and you usually end up fighting for space with the luggage of people coming from the airport. Meanwhile, a 10 car 442 sails through, often with up to 7 empty carriages.

What I believe was talked about at one point was stopping the service at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. I can see both the positives and negatives of this idea. It would have opened up new journey opportunities but crowding may just have shifted from one service to another, i.e. those who usually board a 12 coach 377 switch to a 5 coach 442.

 

[tsr]

A significant number of airport passengers actually opt for Southern/FCC services because Gatwick Express is not only expensive but offers no great time saving when compared with its neighbouring operators. Boarding a Southern service from the East/WestCoastway at East Croydon and you usually end up fighting for space with the luggage of people coming from the airport. Meanwhile, a 10 car 442 sails through, often with up to 7 empty carriages.

What I believe was talked about at one point was stopping the service at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. I can see both the positives and negatives of this idea. It would have opened up new journey opportunities but crowding may just have shifted from one service to another, i.e. those who usually board a 12 coach 377 switch to a 5 coach 442.

The above is true in peak times. As we all know, and many have said in this thread before, people need to get to the airport off-peak as well, when East and West Coastway trains are frequently empty enough to cope - and probably cope with all the GatEx passengers as well! I commute to London during both the peak and off-peak times, because of the unconventional times I need to be up there. I have frequent first-hand experience of the situation you describe and also this situation.

During peak times, I can sometimes see why GatEx needs to be run, in order to relieve the busier commuter services of Gatwick-bound pax. Not always, though!