Virgin trains to Brighton

[JamieFCC]

Looking at Passenger Numbers, East Croydon, Gatwick Aiport and Brighton are much busier than Guildford and any stations on the Bournemouth Branch.

 

[ValleyLines142]

It doesn't need high speed or intercity - it needs capacity to London and places along the way.

Where would the harm be in having both of these?

 

[JamieFCC]

And true, the Gatwick express slows through every station.

 

[Pumbaa]

There is harm when this detracts from what the area really needs - MORE capacity TO/FROM London. You can't have both, take one or the other. And guess what they've got?

 

[JamieFCC]

Its ridiculous how XC serves Paignton and Newquay but not Brighton.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's what I mean, so I wonder why trains are formed of 8 coaches.

You've lost me...

You think wrong. Well, at least the route operator, NR and DfT think you're wrong anyway.

I daresay (despite their shortcomings) they know more than you.

Looking at Passenger Numbers, East Croydon, Gatwick Aiport and Brighton are much busier than Guildford and any stations on the Bournemouth Branch.

And what do you propose to replace services Reading-Bournemouth? Just because the stations are busier doesn't mean that trains should be diverted there...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think London deserves everything it gets to be honest. When i board a seriously off peak train on thameslink during the day 8 car, which average passeneger density higher than i get on a 2 car pacer during the day in sheffield or leeds and a lot higher than passenger density on the 4 car 333s off peak.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Its ridiculous how XC serves Paignton and Newquay but not Brighton.

They are totally unrelated! They are totally separate routes with totally separate operations!

 

[JamieFCC]

There is harm when this detracts from what the area really needs - MORE capacity TO/FROM London. You can't have both, take one or the other. And guess what they've got?

Im sure most places in Britain will have people needing to get to and from Gatwick everyday?

 

[crosscity]

On the face of it through Birmingham to Brighton service should wash its face, but the reality is the trains must cross or bypass London so there will always be time penalties and operational issues to consider. A service of two or three slow trains a day just doesn't work except for a few potential passengers for whom the convenience of a through train outweighs the slowness and poor frequency.

I have used the Brighton trains from Birmingham to get to or from Kensington Olympia, Gatwick Airport and Brighton, but only out of curiosity - the service never stuck in the mind as the best way to get from Birmingham to Sussex.

Ever since the 70's these services were peripheral, and I suspect BR and later the franchising authority and TOCs only ever considered these as cinderalla trains fulfilling parliamentary train obligations to avoid line closure procedures in West London.

It's a shame, but there it is. I can't see a Birmingham-Brighton service ever becoming mainstream, unless a fast route across London is built and the service is integrated into that.

 

[Pumbaa]

Looking at Passenger Numbers, East Croydon, Gatwick Aiport and Brighton are much busier than Guildford and any stations on the Bournemouth Branch.

That doesn't mean anything though. If they all want to go to LONDON rather than Birmingham and the North, having XC and IC services is a bad idea because extra London trains, ie what people really want, can't run.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Im sure most places in Britain will have people needing to get to and from Gatwick everyday?

I'm sure more head to Heathrow or Stansted...

 

[scotsman]

They are totally unrelated! They are totally separate routes with totally separate operations!

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I think he's trying to say that Brighton - a popular seaside destination - should get the same service levels as two other popular seaside towns, Newquay and Paignton.

What he seems to have overlooked is that XC only serve the latter two on a handful of Saturdays in summer. Oops.

 

[ValleyLines142]

You've lost me...

They only need four cars, not 8. Most people change at Peterborough onto East Coast services. Only at peak times would be my only thought.

 

[Pumbaa]

Im sure most places in Britain will have people needing to get to and from Gatwick everyday?

True - I'd completely forgotten that one of the biggest passenger flows in the country was Leamington Spa to Gatwick Airport.

And then DfT went and RUINED it all because they had other (plainly more idiotic) ideas such as improving capacity on services into London and the area, when clearly nobody in the Brighton area wanted to go at all?!

I mean, honestly...

 

[JamieFCC]

1. The train actually ran from Manchester
2. Na Gatwicks busier than Stanstead
3. Dont bother replying until you know how hard it is to change at the London Terminals
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I think he's trying to say that Brighton - a popular seaside destination - should get the same service levels as two other popular seaside towns, Newquay and Paignton.

What he seems to have overlooked is that XC only serve the latter two on a handful of Saturdays in summer. Oops.

Yes Newquay is summer only but Paignton is summer only for trains from Scotland, you might find there is a train a day from Manchester. And even a once a day Brighton train would be good.

 

[Pumbaa]

1. The train actually ran from Manchester
2. Na Gatwicks busier than Stanstead
3. Dont bother replying until you know how hard it is to change at the London Terminals

1) Through Birmingham, Leamington and Reading.
2) Both the airport and station admittedly. But the station at Gatwick also caters for a large commuter area whereas Stansted doesn't.
3) What is that supposed to mean?

MattE2010 and I have tried to point out why both yours and DanTrainMan185 arguments are flawed. You are yet to provide a convincing argument using anything other than rhetoric or corrupted logic.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

1. The train actually ran from Manchester
2. Na Gatwicks busier than Stanstead
3. Dont bother replying until you know how hard it is to change at the London Terminals
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes Newquay is summer only but Paignton is summer only for trains from Scotland, you might find there is a train a day from Manchester. And even a once a day Brighton train would be good.

1. I am aware
2. What about Heathrow then? In all fairness it's business as an airport counts for little in this sense.
3. I do. I'm in London a good few weekends a year, using LUL and other connections.

 

[JamieFCC]

If there was a west curve at Heathrow im sure a lot of Inter cities would run from there,
And I mean, people saying oh change at London it takes about an hour!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Gatwick is also the busiest airport station in Britain.

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes Newquay is summer only but Paignton is summer only for trains from Scotland, you might find there is a train a day from Manchester. And even a once a day Brighton train would be good.

I think it you'll find it's fairly easy to squeeze that path in though.

Try and find a path on the Brighton line - you won't find a good one. It's chockablock and for good reason - people going places that they need to go, like London, not Leamington and Manchester.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If there was a west curve at Heathrow im sure a lot of Inter cities would run from there,
And I mean, people saying oh change at London it takes about an hour!!!

Victoria-Euston on the Vic line doesn't take an hour. I have done train-train in 22 minutes in the past.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Gatwick is also the busiest airport station in Britain.

By passenger numbers it is far and away Heathrow.

 

[scotsman]

1. The train actually ran from Manchester

Point being?

2. Na Gatwicks busier than Stanstead

Heathrow isn't...

3. Dont bother replying until you know how hard it is to change at the London Terminals

I'm pretty sure Pumbaa does. As do I. I do believe it was a 70 minute connection which I made with 30 minutes to spare...

Paignton is summer only for trains from Scotland, you might find there is a train a day from Manchester.

And how many people actually it to reach Paignton? Of those people, for how many was this train the only direct one for them? I don't think it's that high.

And even a once a day Brighton train would be good.

Assuming there are 60 trains per day between London and Brighton, an XC service on this route would lead to an increase in capacity of less than 0.5%

 

[Pumbaa]

I did it in 20 minutes today during rush hour too.

1830 arrival Vic, onto the 1854 off Euston with time to spare... before I realised it was no longer an off-peak service ( )

 

[JamieFCC]

My route was Victoria to Kings Cross. Took 34 mins plus 8 mins to wait for my East coast to Aviemore.
And whats all this about Leamington. Yes it stops, but its one of the least busy stations on the trainline.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Victoria-Euston on the Vic line doesn't take an hour. I have done train-train in 22 minutes in the past.

Of course, you have to look at getting off the train, walking down to the Underground, purchasing a ticket if need be, waiting for the tube, getting on the tube, getting off it, going up to the mainline station. It's not that simple to rush through London and it maybe something that the younger generation can do but I couldn't imagine an elderly person on a walking stick trying to cut across London in twenty-two minutes. And you also need to allow for delays to trains, which can happen a lot. I check disruption on the NRE site and I must admit, its mainly London that suffers from the most problems. I can understand, it's a busy transport link, but even so. I generally try to avoid changing in London if travelling North to South.

 

[Pumbaa]

To blow aspersions off, using 1M21 (the 1422 Brighton - Manchester service when it was pulled).

1422 Brighton dep
1818 Brum New St
2002 Man Picc

Even allowing an hour to cross London, you'd beat it hands down every time to both Brum and Manchester today.

 

[JamieFCC]

Capacity? Were talkin about Brighton, Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Kensington, Slough, Staines, Portsmouth, maybe even Heathrow, the Croydon Tramlink, Bognor Regis, Fratton, Littlehampton. All coming to this service for Intercities

 

[ushawk]

To be honest, it is probably quicker going via London to get to say Birmingham or Manchester, mainly as the XC was stuck behind stoppers on the slows and was then routed via Reading, only convenience was that it was direct and was easier - ultimately people just want to get to places the quickest way possible and if thats via London, then thats the way they will go.

Victoria to Euston by tube takes about 20 mins (from arrival into Victoria), granted if theres problems on the Victoria line then it takes longer, even so the Circle/District line to Embankment and the Northern line to Euston from there doesnt take that long.

 

[Pumbaa]

My route was Victoria to Kings Cross. Took 34 mins plus 8 mins to wait for my East coast to Aviemore.
And whats all this about Leamington. Yes it stops, but its one of the least busy stations on the trainline.

More importantly - whats all this about Brighton needing its XC services back? Brighton and exotic destinations between there and Reading were some of the least busy stations on the XC network.

 

[JamieFCC]

Funny my 1422 Brighton was at Birmingham International by 5 o clock bang on and made it to Manchester by 19:16