Virgin Trains ticket row

[paddington]

I have previously suggested that trains between certain points should be designated as valid for peak tickets only,

Ok, so presumably a train leaving Edinburgh at, say, 0800 and arriving Kings Cross at 1230 calling at Newcastle (0900), York (1000), Peterborough (1130) and Stevenage (1200) is a 'peak' train.

What ticket would I need to travel on it between Stevenage and Kings Cross?

I would abolish peak and off-peak tickets completely, and introduce a "peak supplement". For your particular train perhaps a peak supplement could be required between Newcastle and Peterborough, in addition to the actual ticket.

I would make the headcodes of the trains more prominent rather than identifying trains to passengers by departure times. It would thus be clearer that a peak supplement might be required between A and B on train 1A23.

I don't think this system would be any more complicated than the existing system, which the "average member of the travelling public" doesn't understand anyway

Virgin's incompetence is hardly new. Many of their staff don't understand routes or restrictions, but instead make them up as they go along. They don't even acknowledge the existence of ticket restriction codes. When they get to Erin as they frequently do they are no fine, no days in court, no guilty bylaw sentences.

In this case they did understand the restrictions, but they falsely accused the defendant of breaking them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Super Off Peak fares are regulated on the East Coast route but your understanding is wrong. Pre-simplification the route had Saver and Business Saver fares which then became Super Saver and Saver fares, with regulation staying on the lower priced fare rather than with the name. At simplification the word 'saver' was replaced by Off peak and regulation stayed on the same fares level. Virgin West Coast have never, I think, had Super Saver or Super Off peak fares, so regulation has always been on the same fare/ticket type.

Sheff1 is correct. At privatisation VTWC had both Saver and SuperSaver, but they removed the SuperSaver and reduced the Saver fairly early on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cambsy]

Not same journey but similar thing, I have travelled from London-Exeter on the 18.03, on off peak single ticket, wnanted to do that train for various reasons, was considerably cheaper to go to Newton Abbott, so I got ticket to Newton Abbott then single to Exeter, saved good 40 or more, did consider getting off short at Exeter but didn't want risk the barriers being operative, so went to Newton Abbott, got back same time as if had caught 19.03 London-Exeter.

 

[northwichcat]

In this case they did understand the restrictions, but they falsely accused the defendant of breaking them.

Or did they?

If you had a Lockerbie to Lancaster return and a Lancaster to London return you could alight this train: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y04319/2017/02/06/advanced at Preston and then board this train: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P51747/2017/02/06/advanced

So even if he did board the Virgin service at Preston (as the Train Manager incorrectly claimed) that wouldn't have been proof that he was using an invalid ticket. They need proof that he went through the entrance of Preston station or perhaps that he collected his ticket for a TVM at Preston to prove the ticket was invalid for the journey being made.

Once regular Blackpool to Euston services start there could be quite a few people with Lancaster to London tickets changing trains at Preston.

 

[roversfan2001]

So the industry are happy to (attempt to) throw the book at anyone travelling on an off-peak ticket at a "peak" time; but they're also happy to sell anytime tickets at 2pm on a Saturday afternoon when off-peak tickets are available?

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

 

[kieron]

If it is the SVR, then yes. But some websites will sell you two Saver Half (SVH) tickets which both have BOJ restrictions.

Which web sites do that? There are some situations where this could be really useful (for instance, if you have a railcard which is valid for your journey in one direction but not the other), but the site I looked at (sorry, don't remember which) only offered an off peak return in that situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the industry are happy to (attempt to) throw the book at anyone travelling on an off-peak ticket at a "peak" time; but they're also happy to sell anytime tickets at 2pm on a Saturday afternoon when off-peak tickets are available?

Only if you ask for one.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[roversfan2001]

Only if you ask for one.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I asked if it was off-peak and the guard said no then continued with their duties. This is a problem that needs stamping out - the system and the overcharging.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

 

[clagmonster]

To invert my previous post to use the outbound journey, I presume that most people would find the following examples quite acceptable:

a) Buying a ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston but actually boarding at Stockport
b) Buying a ticket from Glasgow Central to Euston but actually boarding at Motherwell.
c) Buying a ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston but actually boarding at Runcorn.
d) Buying a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Euston but actually boarding at Birmingham International.
e) Buying a ticket from London Waterloo to Southampton Central but actually boarding at Clapham Junction
f) Buying a ticket from Southampton Central to Waterloo but actually boarding at Southampton Airport Parkway.

So buying a ticket from Lancaster to Euston but actually boarding at Preston follows the same logical process. Virgin may say I am breaking their rules, but they will be hard pushed to convince me I am doing anything morally wrong.
As I have said, I have done the last example (f) many times.

a) valid
b) not valid - but less likely to be enforced than the Lancaster example
c) not valid on London Midland only tickets but valid with any permitted tickets
d) not valid on London Midland only tickets but valid on Any permitted and route Wycombe tickets
e) valid
f) valid

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For anybody thinking £175 is an outrageous fare for a peak Virgin arrival in Euston, BA wants £338 to get you from Manchester to Heathrow by mid-morning on Monday (and only 4 seats left).
Plus parking/transfers etc.
It's what the market will bear.

 

[northwichcat]

I asked if it was off-peak and the guard said no then continued with their duties. This is a problem that needs stamping out - the system and the overcharging.

Did you buy on board when boarding at a station with ticket selling facilities? If so the guard doesn't have to sell you an off-peak ticket or allow railcard discounts.

 

[northwichcat]

For anybody thinking £175 is an outrageous fare for a peak Virgin arrival in Euston, BA wants £338 to get you from Manchester to Heathrow by mid-morning on Monday (and only 4 seats left).
Plus parking/transfers etc.
It's what the market will bear.

Parking and transfers can also apply to rail tickets. Not everyone lives in a city centre and is going to a meeting in a city centre.

The BA fares still available are the 'Plus' fares which allow you to change your flight up to 1 hour before scheduled departure for free and allow you to get a full refund if you decide not to travel.

 

[najaB]

Which web sites do that?

It's happened to me in the past using a Trainline-powered website.

 

[AlterEgo]

For anybody thinking £175 is an outrageous fare for a peak Virgin arrival in Euston, BA wants £338 to get you from Manchester to Heathrow by mid-morning on Monday (and only 4 seats left).
Plus parking/transfers etc.
It's what the market will bear.

BA like to keep point to points down on the Manchester route as they'd far rather a long-haul passenger with a swingeingly expensive fare took it than someone who wants to go to London for the day.

 

[roversfan2001]

Did you buy on board when boarding at a station with ticket selling facilities? If so the guard doesn't have to sell you an off-peak ticket or allow railcard discounts.

Boarded at Lostock Hall so no facilities whatsoever. The guard also allowed the F&F railcard discount.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

 

[broadgage]

On the face of it this is very poor from Virgin.

You cannot simply accuse customers of evading their fare without any proof. They hadn't got any proof as we are led to believe the CCTV showed the passenger boarded at Lancaster.

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need.

What would have happened if the passenger had boarded at Lancaster, as he did, but if the CCTV equipment at Lancaster had been defective ?

Without any proof of having boarded at Lancaster, would the passenger have been judged guilty ?

I cant imagine a proper court of law convicting under such circumstances, "innocent until proven guilty"
Railways however seem to be different and are able to "fine" customers who are judged guilty by the railway and with a much lower burden of proof than would be required in a criminal court.

 

[Hadders]

What would have happened if the passenger had boarded at Lancaster, as he did, but if the CCTV equipment at Lancaster had been defective ?

Without any proof of having boarded at Lancaster, would the passenger have been judged guilty ?

I cant imagine a proper court of law convicting under such circumstances, "innocent until proven guilty"
Railways however seem to be different and are able to "fine" customers who are judged guilty by the railway and with a much lower burden of proof than would be required in a criminal court.

It'd be up to Virgin to prove the passenger boarded at Preston, or the passengers responsibility to prove he didn't. In all probability Virgin would've offered to settle out of court which the passenger might have accepted for the avoidance of hassle. However had it ended up at the Magistrates Court Virgin would've had no evidence and their case would've failed.

 

[najaB]

It'd be up to Virgin to prove the passenger boarded at Preston, or the passengers responsibility to prove he didn't.

I agree with the first part of that but not the second.

 

[Mag_seven]

It'd be up to Virgin to prove the passenger boarded at Preston

Not only that but prove that he started the journey at Preston and not Lancaster as the ticket allows changing at Preston.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with the first part of that but not the second.

Just noticed my typo

I meant to say that it's Virgin's responsibility to prove the passenger boarded at Preston, not the passenger's responsibility to prove he didn't.

 

[najaB]

Just noticed my typo

Objection withdrawn, m'lud.

 

[Hadders]

Objection withdrawn, m'lud.

It's not a good idea to multitask - watching the rugby and posting on the forum (with a new phone) at the same time!

 

[snail]

Preston to Wigan NW Anytime Day Reurn is £7.70. Anyone with one of these is through any rPI block at Preston.........

That doesn't make the Lancaster - Euston ticket any more valid.

One thing that hasn't been noted so far on this thread is that the peak restrictions relate to arrival times, not departure times. This leads to the absurdity that the 0658 ex Lancaster (via Birmingham) is not valid with an Off Peak Lancaster-Euston ticket if you change at Crewe to the Liverpool service, arriving Euston 1001, but is valid if you stay on the train and arrive at 1032.

 

[island]

If a traveller for London genuinely wants to board a train at Lancaster but alight at Preston on the way back because it suits him better, which ticket should he buy if travelling at times when 'off peak' tickets are valid to/from Lancaster but not to/from Preston.
a) Anytime return from Preston to Euston plus single from Lancaster to Preston
b) Anytime return from Lancaster to Euston
c) Offpeak return from Lancaster to Euston.

Similarly, if he wishes to board at Preston southbound but return to Lancaster on his return, which of the three options should he buy.

In both cases he is travelling exactly the same mileage at the same times of day, but I fear Virgin may want him to have different tickets and pay different amounts.

For the first question it is c) as break of journey is allowed on the return leg.

For the second either a) or b).

 

[Mag_seven]

That doesn't make the Lancaster - Euston ticket any more valid.

One thing that hasn't been noted so far on this thread is that the peak restrictions relate to arrival times, not departure times. This leads to the absurdity that the 0658 ex Lancaster (via Birmingham) is not valid with an Off Peak Lancaster-Euston ticket if you change at Crewe to the Liverpool service, arriving Euston 1001, but is valid if you stay on the train and arrive at 1032.

I'm not really sure why you think that's absurd?

 

[Gareth Marston]

That doesn't make the Lancaster - Euston ticket any more valid.

Point being ticket barriers or a goon line or easily circumvented.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The correct way to catch people using the 'Lancaster Loophole' is to do a revenue block at Preston station. That way they'd have all the evidence they need.

Having read 10 pages of theory, it seems that, unless I've missed it, no-one has picked up on the fact that's exactly what Virgin have been doing daily at Preston for several months now.

It seems that an error was made by on-train staff in the case of the chap who went to the press.

 

[daodao]

Ok, so presumably a train leaving Edinburgh at, say, 0800 and arriving Kings Cross at 1230 calling at Newcastle (0900), York (1000), Peterborough (1130) and Stevenage (1200) is a 'peak' train.

What ticket would I need to travel on it between Stevenage and Kings Cross?

You appear to have misunderstood my proposal. I suggested that just the segment of a train's journey where it is exceptionally busy would be designated as "valid for peak tickets" only, i.e. Preston-Euston for the subject of this thread, but not the whole of its journey, i.e. not Glasgow-Preston. In your example, it would only be the Edinburgh-Newcastle segment, but in this instance I doubt if there is enough peak time business travel to Newcastle to justify such a restriction.

Paddington's suggestion to "abolish peak and off-peak tickets completely, and introduce a peak supplement" would be an alternative way to levy an appropriate extra charge for using long-distance trains that are only busy for a segment of their journey.

 

[IanD]

Point being ticket barriers or a goon line or easily circumvented.

Point being what?

 

[miami]

Ticket condition technicalities and vague definitions aside, can people stop coming out with the falsity that Virgin trains are busy in the peak. It may be true regarding trains to Scotland (thanks to the Lancaster and north tickets), but for Liverpool, Manchester and cheater trains it certainly isn't. On the return half of a Welshpool-Euston on Friday evening on the 1740 to Manchester I counted people in coaches F, E and D, and came to a loading of under 20%. That's quite normal. First was equally empty when I walked through H and G after boarding rather late.

Virgin charge more for tickets in he middle of the WCmL because they are trying to extract the maximum revenue from every passenger. They don't care that the trains afte 1900 are crush loaded, they know reducing the restrictions will lead to a reduction in revenue (as well as a more comfortable journey)