Virgin Trains ticket row

[soil]

There is no possible, logical definition of BoJ which would permit starting short. Just because the Conditions of Travel doesn't define it it doesn't mean passengers can define it themselves as whatever they want it to mean.

you have that the wrong way round. starting short is not logically, possibly BoJ. And the CoT only mention the issue of indirect trains.

 

[sheff1]

I feel it's worth pointing out that part of the starkness of the contrast between the two fare types is the cheapness of SVRs on the WCML. The Lancaster - London off-peak return is about the same price as those from Derby and Grantham, which are obviously much shorter journeys, the latter in fact less than half the distance.

My understanding is that from Derby & Grantham the regulated fares are the Super Off Peak (formerly Super Saver). The Super Saver fares were withdrawn on the WCML (by Virgin ?) but the operators on the ECML & MML chose to retain them.

 

[cuccir]

The NRCoT do NOT prohibit starting short.

"Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. "

Nowhere is starting short defined as BoJ

16.2:

"
Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not
have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day"

The intention of this, I think, is to define BoJ as incorporating starting short. Whether it's is significantly clear or not is another matter.

What is the rationale of this odd pricing structure? It seems to make no sense. Not that I am complaining of course, being a Lancaster traveller.

In some ways, it's quite simple: the off-peak tickets to Preston are valid for significantly less time than the off-peak tickets to Lancaster. Off-peak tickets from Lancaster are valid about an hour earlier in the morning than from Preston, and have no afternoon peak restrictions, whereas the Preston off-peak tickets are not valid in the evening peak.

The reason for this is the significantly higher demand for travel to/from Preston in comparison to Lancaster.

I think Virgin have cocked-up here. The price difference which is so great makes so little sense to the average traveller that they feel it's OK to ignore (it's a bit like a 50 MPH limit on a wide rural road...), as well as creating an incentive. While I sympathise with the intention, something I'm sure will have to change with these tickets.

 

[Bertie the bus]

you have that the wrong way round. starting short is not logically, possibly BoJ. And the CoT only mention the issue of indirect trains.

Starting short is a break of journey however you define it. Whether you define BoJ as leaving the station premises, not completing your journey in one go, or just changing trains it is a break of journey. I don't know how else you could define break of journey.

Bear in mind we're talking about Lancaster - London tickets and starting at Preston. Therefore the journey you have paid for is Lancaster - London irrespective of whether your actual journey starts at Preston.

 

[All Line Rover]

Off-peak tickets from Lancaster are valid about an hour earlier in the morning than from Preston...

Two hours earlier in the morning, based on the direct fast trains that are actually timetabled to run.

 

[All Line Rover]

Starting short is a break of journey however you define it.

You have a bee in your bonnet about this, don't you?

As a matter of English language, you can't "break" something you haven't "started".

The NRCoT could give a more expansive, railway-specific definition of BoJ, but they don't.

Bear in mind we're talking about Lancaster - London tickets and starting at Preston. Therefore the journey you have paid for is Lancaster - London irrespective of whether your actual journey starts at Preston.

And the "actual journey" didn't start at Lancaster, so the "actual journey" wasn't "broken" at Preston.

One doesn't buy a "journey"; one buys a ticket.

 

[najaB]

One doesn't buy a "journey"; one buys a ticket.

One doesn't buy at ticket. One pays a fare.

 

[Hadders]

While I sympathise with the intention, something I'm sure will have to change with these tickets.

Two choices:

1. The cost of travel from Preston decreases
2. The cost of travel from Lancaster increases

Which option are the DfT/RDG/Virgin going to choose.

And they'll dress it up as simplification and link it all to a smart card and claim it's what passengers want.

I know I keep saying it but be very careful what you wish for.

 

[Bertie the bus]

And the "actual journey" didn't start at Lancaster, so the "actual journey" wasn't "broken" at Preston.

One doesn't buy a "journey"; one buys a ticket.

What on earth does that nonsense mean and how does it relate to what I said? I didn't mention buying anything I said paid for.

 

[All Line Rover]

What on earth does that nonsense mean and how does it relate to what I said? I didn't mention buying anything I said paid for.

I don't have anything further to add. What I said is perfectly clear.

 

[gray1404]

In the case of the man who boarded at Lancaster and was detained wrongfully, I think Virgin should be offering him an out of court settlement. I do think he should consider taken legal action against them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have RPI at Preston so you can't get on the platform without passing them. That way anyone with a Lancaster ticket can't get on the platform.

Even though if they've travelled from Lancaster on another train they are entitled to do so?

 

[soil]

Starting short is a break of journey however you define it. Whether you define BoJ as leaving the station premises, not completing your journey in one go, or just changing trains it is a break of journey. I don't know how else you could define break of journey.

Bear in mind we're talking about Lancaster - London tickets and starting at Preston. Therefore the journey you have paid for is Lancaster - London irrespective of whether your actual journey starts at Preston.

You don't buy a journey, you buy a ticket. A journey can even be made without a ticket (albeit illegally) - the question is whether the ticket is valid for the journey that has been made.

If your journey is Preston - London on a single train then you have not broken your journey.

If you use a Lancaster - London ticket, which prohibits break of journey, then given that you have not broken your journey, your ticket appears to be valid.

 

[All Line Rover]

Of course it isn't really (not unless, at least, combined with another ticket), but the TOCs should make this much clearer in the NRCoT and when selling tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

In the case of the man who boarded at Lancaster and was detained wrongfully, I think Virgin should be offering him an out of court settlement. I do think he should consider taken legal action against them.

They gave him free first class tickets.

 

[a_c_skinner]

All I can say is I'm glad I didn't get on the earlier airport train to PRE and change so I could watch more interesting trains for half an hour at Preston.

Andrew

 

[Failed Unit]

They gave him free first class tickets.

Which isn't really that much considering what he has gone through, if it was the otherway around he would be looking at a fine higher than the value of 1st class tickets.

It is interesting that this particular flow gets so much attention, as others have pointed out thier are others that have these. For example it is possible to get a cheaper ticket in the peak from Edinburgh - London than Newcastle to London. I guess the fact that Newcastle is barriered and people would really drive to Edinburgh to take advantage may stop the "abuse". This isn't new either BR used to offer a cheaper fare for people travelling from Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Habrough, Barnetby, Market Rasen and Lincoln to London back in the days the HST existed than anyone boarding at Newark or futher South. It was the fact we could use the "white saver" then Newark people needed the full fare. No idea if it was abused in the same way. I think the Hull Exec, was simular with Doncaster and south paying full and Hull, Brough and Goole getting "white saver"

I know the certainty here is that at some point Virgin will remove the fare for Lancaster passengers, but considering the difference in price I can see many from Preston driving north. I know time is money but I would even take the train (buying the Preston - Lancaster ticket)

One question, if I did and the Preston - Lancaster part was delayed resulting in me missing my valid connection to London would I be entitled to delay replay as the journey I made was delayed (or are you not allowed to double back in a valid journey)

 

[daodao]

Two choices:

1. The cost of travel from Preston decreases
2. The cost of travel from Lancaster increases

Which option are the DfT/RDG/Virgin going to choose.

And they'll dress it up as simplification and link it all to a smart card and claim it's what passengers want.

I know I keep saying it but be very careful what you wish for.

I have previously suggested that trains between certain points should be designated as valid for peak tickets only, wherever one's journey has originated or is finishing. This peak time train between Preston and Euston could be designated as such between these points, so that off peak tickets from stations beyond Preston (in particular north of Preston) would thus not be valid south of Preston. This would solve the anomaly. The existing situation is a trap for the unwary.

 

[najaB]

One question, if I did and the Preston - Lancaster part was delayed resulting in me missing my valid connection to London would I be entitled to delay replay as the journey I made was delayed (or are you not allowed to double back in a valid journey)

You would be entitled to delay repay as your combination of tickets covered your journey.

You don't buy a journey, you buy a ticket.

You pay a fare for a journey.

 

[IanD]

Technically it is. If we use the old definition of BoJ, i.e. leaving the station premises, then how is it possible to use a Lancaster - Euston ticket, start at Preston and not leave the railway's premises between Lancaster and Euston?

This does not make any sense at all - technically or otherwise. If you start at Preston, you are entering railway premises at Preston not leaving them!

 

[Howardh]

I thought it was valid to start a journey from a station after the one on the ticket - and finish short if you wished.

I was thinking of a virgin cheap advance Manchester - Euston return, and having the option to get off or back on at Watford if it stopped there (ie keeping options open). Are there certain tickets where that's not allowed? If so and you get off early, what can they do?
And if you get on after your scheduled start (a) if it's a more expensive journey from where you start even though the distance is less I can understand the "loss" and (b) if the journey would be less expensive then you have simply lost the miles you haven't used?
My solution is simple - it should be illegal to charge more for a shorter journey; even allowing for stations inside peak hours. Dunno how that would work in practice, as alluded to above would that mean some stations lose cheap tickets?
But it all highlights what a complete shambles ticketing is.
How many have won a case in court with the defence "I simply don't understand it all, m'lud"?!!

 

[Hadders]

I have previously suggested that trains between certain points should be designated as valid for peak tickets only, wherever one's journey has originated or is finishing. This peak time train between Preston and Euston could be designated as such between these points, so that off peak tickets from stations beyond Preston (in particular north of Preston) would thus not be valid south of Preston. This would solve the anomaly. The existing situation is a trap for the unwary.

Ok, so presumably a train leaving Edinburgh at, say, 0800 and arriving Kings Cross at 1230 calling at Newcastle (0900), York (1000), Peterborough (1130) and Stevenage (1200) is a 'peak' train.

What ticket would I need to travel on it between Stevenage and Kings Cross?

 

[Howardh]

This does not make any sense at all - technically or otherwise. If you start at Preston, you are entering railway premises at Preston not leaving them!

Think he means - for example, if you have a Lancaster - Euston ticket, but pay for Blackpool - Preston, you can connect with your Lancaster/Euston train @ Preston otherwise you would have to go Blackpool-Preston-Lancaster which would be barmy (unless, of course, your train from Lancaster didn't call at Preston).

 

[najaB]

I thought it was valid to start a journey from a station after the one on the ticket - and finish short if you wished.

Where the ticket conditions allow it, yes it is.

 

[northwichcat]

There is no possible, logical definition of BoJ which would permit starting short. Just because the Conditions of Travel doesn't define it it doesn't mean passengers can define it themselves as whatever they want it to mean.

Imagine the following scenario. Someone from Manchester has two business meetings - one in Milton Keynes and the second in London so buy a ticket to Euston permitting a BOJ on the outbound journey. However, after they start their journey they are told the person they are supposed to be meeting with in London is unwell and needs to reschedule the meeting so they return back to Manchester after the meeting in Milton Keynes. So does that now mean, in your opinion, that it's now debatable if their ticket is valid because they didn't travel to and from Euston?

 

[Howardh]

Where the ticket conditions allow it, yes it is.

How would you know? Is the ticket valid unless it says otherwise - vice-versa - or some other way of knowing?

 

[najaB]

How would you know? Is the ticket valid unless it says otherwise - vice-versa - or some other way of knowing?

It will be listed in the restriction codes as BOJ allowed or not.

 

[northwichcat]

To find the details of any restriction code you can go to www.nationalrail.co.uk/(restriction code) e.g. www.nationalrail.co.uk/3a

 

[miami]

Virgin's incompetence is hardly new. Many of their staff don't understand routes or restrictions, but instead make them up as they go along. They don't even acknowledge the existence of ticket restriction codes. When they get to Erin as they frequently do they are no fine, no days in court, no guilty bylaw sentences.

 

[Haywain]

My understanding is that from Derby & Grantham the regulated fares are the Super Off Peak (formerly Super Saver). The Super Saver fares were withdrawn on the WCML (by Virgin ?) but the operators on the ECML & MML chose to retain them.

Super Off Peak fares are regulated on the East Coast route but your understanding is wrong. Pre-simplification the route had Saver and Business Saver fares which then became Super Saver and Saver fares, with regulation staying on the lower priced fare rather than with the name. At simplification the word 'saver' was replaced by Off peak and regulation stayed on the same fares level. Virgin West Coast have never, I think, had Super Saver or Super Off peak fares, so regulation has always been on the same fare/ticket type.