Virgin Trains Severe Overcrowding

[Bantamzen]

I may be missing the point here, but if there's a particular demand from MK that can't be satisfied by Virgin's current timetable, is it really their fault at all? It sounds very much to me like another couple of carriages on existing services isn't going resolve the problem. So maybe additional semi-fasts are required from LM to cover any gaps in the paths (I'm not familiar with these routes so I've no idea if this is possible), or double up the 4 car services and provide significant capacity towards London. Obviously this means LM (or whomever) acquiring additional stock, and of course will need some co-operation from MK passengers to move away from the VT services.

It sounds like it isn't going to be an easy one to get around. Maybe National Rail should start threatening MK passengers with a poster campaign telling them if they don't play nice, they will be presented with some nice 142s for their daily commute....

 

[Hadders]

There aren't any 4 car services in the morning peak! They're either all 8 or 12 carriage trains and even the 12 carriage trains will be wedged by the time they arrive at Euston.

I doubt there are any paths available in which to run additional trains either.

 

[Starmill]

There is certainly a stigma with MK Passengers on VT.

I kinda smypathise though... I now target the 19:40 to Manchester on a Saturday night because it's first stop Crewe and you know that's going to be a nice chilled out hour and a half, despite the 19:20 getting me home 35 minutes earlier. The rush to board is so much more intense and unpleasant finding and getting to your seat because it has the MK call - and then you are disturbed by somebody wanting to get off or the people getting on just as you have settled into your journey half an hour later!

 

[Bantamzen]

There aren't any 4 car services in the morning peak! They're either all 8 or 12 carriage trains and even the 12 carriage trains will be wedged by the time they arrive at Euston.

I doubt there are any paths available in which to run additional trains either.

Well then if the paths aren't there, and peaks are running in those formations then to be honest the job is buggered. A couple of extra carriages on those 390/0s isn't going to make a huge difference. It's a case of too much demand & not enough supply, so the good folk of MK will have to make do or where possible amend their commutes to avoid the worst of the congestion. Whenever I work in Leeds or are travelling through it, I avoid certain Aire / Wharfe services like the plague as I know they will be rammed when I pick them up either outward or inward bound. I know it's not possible for everyone, but some might be able to head off a bit earlier and have a coffee on arrival at Euston, and others might be able to broker a change in working patterns.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But would there be sufficient capacity on the 0717 LM service if the 0714 Virgin call was withdrawn?

Very probably not, although the 0717 does only call at Leighton Buzzard after MK. It depends how wedged it is, though it starts at Northampton rather than further north. If MK passengers don't like the bunfight to get on the Virgin Train there will be room on the LM.

All LM trains into Euston in the morning are 8-coach or 12-coach, how busy they are and for how long depends on where they start and call. The fasts tend to be busy after MK and Leighton Buzzard, as far as I can tell, looking at them from my Tring stopper. The semi-fasts and stoppers being quiet as far as Tring, but getting wedged by Hemel or Watford.

LM will be running more trains in the peak when the 110mph timetable starts. I hope so. I live in Apsley and the skip-stopping at that time of day is a PITA.

 

[jopsuk]

One of the Dafter DfT decisions was not following through to make the entire 390 fleet 11 car. As I've shown in a thread on 1sttd ratios ages ago, the 11 car Pendolinos have a very good (from Std point of view) 1sttd ratio (as introduced, the 8 car formations had a woeful ratio)

 

[bILLOO]

LM will be running more trains in the peak when the 110mph timetable starts. I hope so. I live in Apsley and the skip-stopping at that time of day is a PITA.

In the morning at least, a couple of trains will be non-stop Northampton to Euston. Maybe it would help if these called at MK, too?

 

[Goatboy]

Playing Devil's advocate, but isn't Virgin's job to run long haul Inter City services, not to operate a higher speed commuter service from Milton Keynes to London?

You could say the same thing about trains to Cornwall and the far West of Wales being rammed full of people going as far as Reading..

 

[455driver]

I notice there is an 0741 set down only call on a Vigin service from Wolverhampton, why cant that be a pick up call as well, the bloomin thing has already stopped so 30 seconds for the pax to board wouldnt make much difference.

Its just Virgin trying to be clever and push the rush hour pax onto LM services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Playing Devil's advocate, but isn't Virgin's job to run long haul Inter City services, not to operate a higher speed commuter service from Milton Keynes to London?

Its Virgins job to shift the passengers just like its every other TOCs job, Virgin shouldnt be allowed to pick and choose which pax they pick up, if the train stops during the rush hour then it should pick up.

 

[bb21]

At least the MK lot just seem to get on with it - the Bedford commuters on the Midland are frankly insufferable about the fact that their already 10 carriage peak trains are full of people from the East Midlands and Yorkshire who don't have the alternative FCC fast services that run in the peak, and woe and anguish - they often run up to 3 minutes late.

When pointed out that there is an alternative in the form of FCC, they usually seem to go quiet or make some other disgusted remark!

They will also stand in First vestibules, right in the way of the First Class hosts who are still bringing breakfast to the First Class pax.

Last time I spoke to the hosts about the danger of tripping, they just shrugged their shoulders and sighed.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I notice there is an 0741 set down only call on a Vigin service from Wolverhampton, why cant that be a pick up call as well, the bloomin thing has already stopped so 30 seconds for the pax to board wouldnt make much difference.

Its just Virgin trying to be clever and push the rush hour pax onto LM services.

Not being funny, but what is there to physically stop you from boarding there? I have always wondered this.

It's the same with the services from Euston which call at Watford Junction. They're pick up only, but who can stop you from opening the doors and alighting? Fair play you may get the odd guard informing you it is pick-up only, but as far as I can see, there are no physical barriers.

On a more general note, it is certainly concerning when 11 coach trains are apparently severly overcrowded. It won't be long before Eurostar-length trains are in service on our railways!

 

[LowLevel]

It depends really! I've seen dispatch staff hossing people off set down services. There's also the danger of being charged from the last pick up point which can be quite painful. That said the only set down only train I work I've never enforces because it's pointless anyway - there's plenty of room.

A friend once told me of an opposite occurrence, an evening peak service from Manchester to Euston that picked up only at somewhere like Wilmslow. Some regulars kept getting on it and hoping not to get checked, particularly in first class. They must have been set up though eventually as one evening it had TTIs on it and they knocked the stops out and ran a relief, charging them the full whack from Manchester to Watford or wherever it was the train stopped next. Most entertaining.

 

[Marton]

Not being funny, but what is there to physically stop you from boarding there? I have always wondered this.



It's the same with the services from Euston which call at Watford Junction. They're pick up only, but who can stop you from opening the doors and alighting? Fair play you may get the odd guard informing you it is pick-up only, but as far as I can see, there are no physical barriers.

When Stevenage was set down only I heard guards announce "for those boarding it's an open single from York". Not sure if they ever got anyone, but an expensive commute.


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[ValleyLines142]

When Stevenage was set down only I heard guards announce "for those boarding it's an open single from York". Not sure if they ever got anyone, but an expensive commute.

That is true. I didn't take the into account.

 

[dk1]

It's the same with the services from Euston which call at Watford Junction. They're pick up only, but who can stop you from opening the doors and alighting? Fair play you may get the odd guard informing you it is pick-up only, but as far as I can see, there are no physical barriers.

All well & good until something like a security alert means trains are advised not to call at Watford Jcn. How would you explain? Peterborough used to be the same & on occasions trains booked to PU only have been sent past on the through lines as there shouldn't be anyone alighting.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect that if a train calls to set down only at MKC then many passengers will board it. I doubt there's anything that can be done on the train given how wedged the trains get at that time of the morning.

A few years ago I was on a Virgin train from Euston to Wolverhampton. It was pick up only at Watford and wasn't announced as a calling point on the departure board at Euston. As the train pulled into Watford the guard did the usual announcement over the pa system, saying that the next stop was Watford, those leaving take care etc. Half the passengers on the train then got off!

Once I was at Stevenage waiting for a train to London during some minor disruption. A Hull Trains service that was set down only pulled in. Only a local door was opened for passengers leaving the train at Stevenage and everyone who tried to board was prevented from doing so. I think this is the only was to physically stop people boarding a set down only service but in reality you could not expect passengers getting off a 9 or 11 car Pendolino at MKC to get off through only one door!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Waterloo-Weymouth trains are often pick up only at Clapham and sometimes people for Clapham get on Waterloo even though it isn't an advertised stop. This is fine, until a passenger for Clapham sits in the rear five coaches which don't open due to the short platform-next stop is Basingstoke.

 

[Minilad]

If a train set down only, for example at Watford, and is advertised as first stop say Coventry what is the situation regarding tickets. If you gripped leaving Euston and someone had a ticket to Watford could you excess them to Coventry ?

 

[route:oxford]

If a train set down only, for example at Watford, and is advertised as first stop say Coventry what is the situation regarding tickets. If you gripped leaving Euston and someone had a ticket to Watford could you excess them to Coventry ?

I suspect these days the railway company would have to prove that no available timetable data, whether paper or digital could be readily misinterpreted.

As to the Milton Keynes "problem".

This would probably be best resolved by changing the stop to Bletchley instead - it will, after all, soon become an important junction station again...

"Change here for services to Reading, Oxford, Bicester Village & Aylesbury"...

 

[The Planner]

Virgin won't stop at Bletchley, irrespective of E-W.

 

[reb0118]

To play devil's advocate (I've no axe to grind either way) why would this be a problem if it was a simple* change of stopping places? If Bletchley does become a major hub surely having long distance services stopping there would not be a bad thing as long as there was no significant detriment to the overall service provision.



* Nothing is ever that simple on the railway though!

 

[Hadders]

Virgin stopping at Bletchley rather than Milton Keynes would simply move the problem to Bletchley.

It's more than 30 years since inter-city trains served Bletchley and I doubt the station has the required infrastructure these days to adequately deal with the number of passengers a Virgin Trains service would bring.

 

[Class 170101]

Would the signalling be up to the job to cope with trains stopping at Bletchley on fast lines and not diminishing capacity.

 

[The Planner]

Makes no difference, but it is a moot point as it isn't going to happen. MK is the biggest driver and E-W are going to have MK services anyway. Without rewriting the WCML entirely you're not going to get Bletchley stops in.