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Virgin Trains Severe Overcrowding

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WCML

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After last weeks Wolverine/X-Men debacle, Virgin once again inflicted the FU effect on rush hour passengers by running 390 047 on 1R05 ex Liverpool calling at Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central arriving into Euston at 07:52.

390/0 stock is adequate for such runs that avoid calling at MKC even though all seats can be taken on 1R11 that calls at Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth arriving into EUS at 08:22. However, the absence of /1 stock for peak time services that call at MKC is simply unacceptable.

This morning led to severe overcrowding at MKC to the point where first class was declassified and the Train Manager was pleading with people to leave coach B as apparently the train was indicating that the coach was overloaded. This is particularly poor when /1 stock is carting fresh air on northbound services and since the timetable change the Scotland services via Birmingham New Street seem to be running with a lot of Pendos.

It is a good job that FU gate has occurred on 1R05 on Mondays otherwise the impacts could have been even more severe on busier commuting days. Many Milton Keynes Central passengers will go to great lengths to board VT services and attempt to secure a seat, it was fortunate that there weren't any crushing events given the uncivilised behaviour MKC passengers engage in. You only have to observe the slow line platforms and stampede through the shortcut tunnel to the underground when an LM service arrives at Euston to witness such behaviour.

If VT persist with such poor stock management, what should happen? Should 1st continue to be declassified and people be squeezed into the vestibules and coaches overloaded for 40 minutes?

My view is that if a /0 is utilised on this service, it should not stop at MKC for safety reasons. There are umpteen LM services which take a similar length of time to reach Euston which pax can use.
 
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Jonfun

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I don't know the in and outs of Virgin diagramming, so I won't comment on that part of things but I highly doubt it's some conspiracy... and I don't think you've really thought the last part of your post through, unfortunately. If you're saying it shouldn't stop for safety reasons because it's overcrowded, then what do the x hundred people who would have caught it do?

Crowd on the next one, which means not only do you have that train's normal load (which will probably be full), but you've also got the x hundred off the one that got pulled, so you shift the problem down the timetable. What you *actually* want to solve the problem is more Virgin trains to call (if it's possible, not knowing the timetable), in order that the passenger numbers can be distributed across a greater number of carriages.
 

tractakid

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There is only one non-stop London Midland train per hour (11 per day) that comes close to matching Virgin's journey time. These are the very busy 4 coach Trent Valley services.

If there is a service that is advertised to call somewhere- there is no reason a passenger should not board that service for that station. And claim a seat- why is anyone else more entitled to occupy a seat between London and Milton Keynes?

If a service was so crammed that nobody could actually board, it would perhaps be inconsiderate for a Milton Keynes passenger to take the place of a passenger that would have to be delayed for longer should they miss it. It would be an act of generosity for an MK passenger to disembark, not an act of duty. Of course, an MK passenger may need this train (and no other) in order to get back in time for something important.

And anyway- what if a Milton Keynes passenger holds a Virgin Trains Only routed ticket?

If I make a trip to London, I will almost always buy a ticket restricted to either VT or LM!
 

Goatboy

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Why are FGW being forced by the DFT to remove First Class accommodation for the benefit of low priced short hop season ticket holders at the detriment of long distance Intercity passengers, yet nobody seems to mind Virgin's level of FC accommodation with crowding levels such as this?
 

Greenback

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Why are FGW being forced by the DFT to remove First Class accommodation for the benefit of low priced short hop season ticket holders at the detriment of long distance Intercity passengers, yet nobody seems to mind Virgin's level of FC accommodation with crowding levels such as this?

That's a good question! Could it have anything to do with the magic of the Virgin brand amongst the decision makers, who continue to see it as a shining beacon of private sector innovation and success? As opposed to First, who are seen as incomptent?
 

Leylandlad

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Playing Devil's advocate, but isn't Virgin's job to run long haul Inter City services, not to operate a higher speed commuter service from Milton Keynes to London?
 

Aldaniti

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Playing Devil's advocate, but isn't Virgin's job to run long haul Inter City services, not to operate a higher speed commuter service from Milton Keynes to London?

Is the correct response. Milton Keynes should be served by the Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton services only. If Virgin feel there is a need for other services to stop there then they should be pu/sd. Quite a few times in the past I've had an otherwise pleasant southbound trip on the WCML spoiled by the Milton Keynes rabble boarding.
 
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6Gman

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The OP was referring to an Up service. So the longer distance passengers were presumably already settled. At MKC a crowd boarded - many had to stand. For 30-40 minutes. Their choice.
 

Aldaniti

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But not the choice of those already on the train who are not able to get up from their seats easily to use facilities because the Milton Keynes brigade are blocking the aisles and the vestibules.
 

gordonthemoron

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if Virgin stopped more services at Milton Keynes (especially in the peak), the trains would not get so overcrowded. As it is services which do not stop at MK are not that crowded
 

talltim

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I'd have said that Milton Keynes to London was Intercity. Its far further than, for example Leicester to Derby, to pick a random pair out of thin air
 

Cherry_Picker

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I'd have said that Milton Keynes to London was Intercity. Its far further than, for example Leicester to Derby, to pick a random pair out of thin air

That's not really a fair comparison. If you are going to do a "to London" comparison then both journeys should have London in them. I'd compare MK with places like Oxford, Reading and Stevenage.


I can see both sides of the argument with regards to MK too. It must be annoying for passengers from the north who think that there are London Midland services carting fresh air between MK and Euston, but it's human nature that people in MK are going to gravitate towards the non stop trains.

What is situation with the semi fast service from MK? Journey times, frequency, passenger loadings (etc) ?
 
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gordonthemoron

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in the peak all trains are packed, 4 coach LM services which are used on the Crewe services can be packed at any time of the day
 

MCR247

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I'd have said that Milton Keynes to London was Intercity. Its far further than, for example Leicester to Derby, to pick a random pair out of thin air

Great comparison :roll:
 

DarloRich

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I am struggling to understand the level of wibblage in this thread if I am honest.

It appears to be a thread about hew awful it is that people, who have bought a ticket to be conveyed in the same manner as other passengers, have dared board a train that some passengers are already travelling on, wish to sit down, perhaps (terribly) they want to sit at your careful guarded table or next to you on your independent personal human contact deterrent system/bag storage zone and (perhaps the most shocking of all) want to use the fastest service to travel to and from work.
 

Cherry_Picker

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So the OP is offering a false premise with regards to what options he says MK passengers have? Also if a semi fast or stopping train isn't full and standing at MK then that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be full and standing by the time it reaches, say, Hemel Hempstead which means MK passengers are no better off catching that train so have little incentive to do so?

The complaint that trains are empty running north in the morning peak is crazy too. They have to run north at some point, if not there will be no free platforms at Euston and no stock to form the next wave of southbound services.

It's unfortunate. Anything you do with current stock and capacity levels is simply a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. I can't think of a simple solution and I know for a fact I've not given this problem as much thought as Virgin or LM.
 
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LowLevel

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At least the MK lot just seem to get on with it - the Bedford commuters on the Midland are frankly insufferable about the fact that their already 10 carriage peak trains are full of people from the East Midlands and Yorkshire who don't have the alternative FCC fast services that run in the peak, and woe and anguish - they often run up to 3 minutes late.

When pointed out that there is an alternative in the form of FCC, they usually seem to go quiet or make some other disgusted remark!
 

Class 170101

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Isn't that what the 350/3s will help do by allowing LM to run direct services on the fast Lines to Milton Keynes and to Trent Valley Stations in the peaks from December this year?
 

WCML

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Obviously anyone who has purchased a ticket has as much right to a seat as anyone else no matter where they are boarding. My point in the OP was the uncivilised manner in which some MKC passengers employ in an attempt to get a seat. Shoving, shouting etc is just unecessary.

Some argue that Virgin should stop more services at MKC. Wouldn't this reduce capacity on the fast lines with the long dwell times and reduce the number of services able to run? Surely stopping more Virgin services would encourage more MKC passengers to use Virgin Trains rather than London Midland? The VT services would still be overcrowded because they're quicker.

Regarding the stock. Why are /1s on the sparesly loaded Scotland via BHMs and not on peak time services into Euston? Before the timetable change it was mainly Voyagers on Scotlands.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh look it's happened again. 390 042 turns up on 1R05. FU commuters! :mad:
 

carriageline

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Not all of them are 11 coach, isn't that what he means by 390/1s? And the 390/0s are 9 coach
 

Tetchytyke

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390/0s are 9-coach, 390/1s are 11-coach. The 9-coach trains tend to be seen more on the Birmingham trains which, by coincidence, are the ones that tend to stop at Milton Keynes Central.

The main problem here is that there is an 0655 LM, then two Virgins at 0659 and 0714, before the next LM at 0717. But my heart fails to bleed too much. Most passengers will be on season tickets. The 0717 takes slightly longer but runs on the fasts from Leighton Buzzard and is formed of 12 coaches. The simple solution would be to remove the 0714 Virgin stop, or make it set down only.

I've never heard the Birmingham-Scotland trains called "lightly loaded" before. A single Voyager north of Preston is like a sardine can.
 
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Geezertronic

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Maybe the powers that be should have extended all 390s to 11 carriages to avoid scenarios like this. And I guess what you have to ask yourself is whether a 390/0 is better than the service being cancelled if no 390/1s are available.
 

Hadders

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The main problem here is that there is an 0655 LM, then two Virgins at 0659 and 0714, before the next LM at 0717. But my heart fails to bleed too much. Most passengers will be on season tickets. The 0717 takes slightly longer but runs on the fasts from Leighton Buzzard and is formed of 12 coaches. The simple solution would be to remove the 0714 Virgin stop, or make it set down only.

But would there be sufficient capacity on the 0717 LM service if the 0714 Virgin call was withdrawn?

A similar situation exists on the 0616 from Euston to Manchester. It's quiet until it calls at Stoke on Trent at 0745 and Macclesfield at 0801 when it becomes completely wedged with commuters heading into Manchester standing in the aisles as well as the vestibules.
 

dannypye9999

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In my opinion there are too many 1st class carriages on virgin trains. Never hardly any people in them. These carriages should be converted to standard class as they will be better used elsewhere.
 

Hadders

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1st class is often well used at certain times.

If you removed all 1st class the same number of people would travel (with a bit more space each) but how would you make up the revenue shortfall as those who currently pay 1st class fares would be pay less as they'd only need to buy standard class tickets.

The real answer has to be more capacity. Why not run build a new line for the Birmingham and Manchester trains so the existing line can operate more fast trains from the likes of Northampton and Milton Keynes......
 
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