Virgin Trains for America?

[Metroland]

Virgin Trains, which operates the West Coast Main Line in Britain, is bidding for a slice of President Obama's multibillion-dollar upgrade of the American rail network, The Times has learnt.

Virgin is understood to be the only British company involved in the President's plan to build high-speed rail links between key cities on the East and West coasts of the United States. Virgin has been asked to submit a proposal for developing this infrastructure and has held meetings with the new Administration in Washington.

Virgin and other high-speed operators, such as SNCF, of France, are expected to work with the US Department of Transportation to develop its rail plans and then bid to operate individual services.

Virgin is keen on the Los Angeles to San Francisco route and also the East Coast line linking Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Washington. There are 30 return airline flights a day between Los Angeles and San Francisco and a high-speed train service could replace many of those, cutting carbon emissions. The journey would take less than three hours and voters in California have already agreed to raise $10 billion to start work on a line that would run from Sacramento, the state capital, to San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Governor of California, said this week: “Our rail system in America is so old, we are driving the same speed as we did 100 years ago. We should do what other countries do. All over the world we see high-speed rail. We should do the same in this country, and especially in this state.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article5804544.ece

 

[me123]

This is Virgin's area of expertise; upgrading old rail systems close to modern standards. Look what they did to the WCML: 45 minutes off Glasgow-London, hourly services up here, frequent trains from Manchester and Birmingham to London all on the WCML. And it's all running well from what I can see.

However, I hope they can provide/end up with better stock than the Pendolinos and Voyagers.

But it'll be a tough market. America relies on the air network, understandably due to the massive distances involved for cross-country services. Most Americans who commute drive. The railroads aren't as big there as they are here, but hopefully this project will let Americans see the benefit of rail services.

 

[jopsuk]

The website I've seen about the California plan is certainly ambitious- at the moment, the "main" SF-LA line is single track for much of the length, with "open" line, un barried crossings etc- the proposals are to built a fully segregated high-speed quality line, with the proposal videos showing example trains modeled after various European and Japanese units- nothing anywhere near as small or slow as a british train.


Edit: ah, first google search result

Not sure about the livery, mind! Bet Beardy would want something a bit redder...

 

[Broken Viking]

Virgin Trains, which operates the West Coast Main Line in Britain, is bidding for a slice of President Obama's multibillion-dollar upgrade of the American rail network, The Times has learnt.

Woah...The US of America has finally woken up to the truth that trains can exceed 30mph at long last?

About bleedin' time too...The USA is the only country I have ever visited where I wound up choosing the intercity bus network over the rail system! hock::roll:

Virgin is keen on the Los Angeles to San Francisco route and also the East Coast line linking Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Washington. [...] The journey would take less than three hours and voters in California have already agreed to raise $10 billion to start work on a line that would run from Sacramento, the state capital, to San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego.

That would be a helluva improvement and no mistake! When I did the same journey by bus; I left Los Agujero del Culo at about 21:00, and didn't arrive in San Francisco until about 09:20 the next morning...And that timing was only because my bus somehow got lucky and wedged itself just in front of the morning jams for the Bay Bridge! hock:

This is Virgin's area of expertise; upgrading old rail systems close to modern standards. Look what they did to the WCML: 45 minutes off Glasgow-London, hourly services up here, frequent trains from Manchester and Birmingham to London all on the WCML. And it's all running well from what I can see.

I wish 'em the be(a)st of luck with that project...A lot of the existing system is only designed for 30mph freights, and there'll be an obscene amount of new P-Way needing construction! hock:

Actually...I wonder if they might be looking for someone to help them design this new high-speed system? I know someone who'd be very happy to lend a claw... [Raises hand]

However, I hope they can provide/end up with better stock than the Pendolinos and Voyagers.

And hopefully, much better stock than the rather worrying FGW Adelanté that ye can see on the California HSR homepage if ye browse with NoScript turned on! :? :roll:

I reckon this'd be a very good time to get the old Class 370 out of the box after all of this time. I know that BR only had her up to 182mph, but they wern't even using a tenth of her full potential... hock:
Besides...If they want to shift traffic from the airlines to the railways on a short run like LA to NY, they're going to need a half-decent journey time to act as a very tasty looking carrot for all of those travellers. I propose thirty minutes with stops in Denver and Kansas City only, and fares deliberateley capped at 50% of the airline equivalent...

But it'll be a tough market. America relies on the air network, understandably due to the massive distances involved for cross-country services. The railroads aren't as big there as they are here, but hopefully this project will let Americans see the benefit of rail services.

Obama has all the tools he needs to sort it out: Build the new rail system, get it tested and working properly, then make air travel illegal for all journeys that don't involve a sea crossing! 8)

Personally, I'm liking the look of this very much. When it comes to HSR for the US though, I've been entertaining ideas on this subject for years...And I'd really like to see those realised too, especially as they'd both meet and exceed everyone's most obscene imaginations! 8)

Does anyone have Barack Obama's telephone number?... hock:
>> Death <<

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Virgin in America eh? Hmm interesting.

In terms of cutting journey times etc the Virgin have done a good job in their native country. But, cracking the U.S market will be a different barrell of fish. Would be a long-term project with new rolling stock, mass electrification and I would presume alot of track would need to be upgraded. Also many level crossings are unmanned as mentioned earlier.

 

[yorkie]

In terms of cutting journey times etc the Virgin have done a good job in their native country.

Have they? I thought the West Coast upgrade to cut journey times was a Railtrack project, which went horribly wrong and was partially responsible for the demise of Railtrack and we ended up with a service slower than promised at a cost of around 3 times the original estimate.

Not that I am saying Virgin are to blame - it's just not a success story, and Virgin really had nothing to do with it (other than agreeing to pay unaffordably high access charges if it was completed properly, and as it wasn't they are heavily subsidised instead, which must be a relief for Virgin!)

 

[Shinkensgone]

This is Virgin's area of expertise; upgrading old rail systems close to modern standards.

Even Americans wouldnt choose CLOSE TO MODERN

I dont think being part of one upgrade project in the Uk makes Virgin Experts in building ground up high speed railways.
For a project this important you will find the big boys of high speed rail involved, not just France and Germany but now Japan.
If buying new who would not choose Shinkansen reliability?
Maybe Virgin will supply hostess/trolly dollys and kids entertainment packs.
Know your limits eh?

 

[shinkansen09]

Virgin was not reponsible for WCML "upgrade" (not new railway) as mentioned previously...also if you do want to tag them with it`s "succses" then dont forget how many times it`s been "closed" since "re-opening"...quite ironic ! and of course it was supposed to be an upgrade to 140MPH...Hmmmmm no that didn`t happen either, so Virgin bought a fleet of trains to tilt at speed (not HIGH speed) that you cant sit next to the window on if you are over 5' tall due to the tilt profile of the coach, you dont get much chance to get a seat, let alone a window.....last time i travelled on one from Mancland to London the tilt was switched off due to all the hydraulic fluid being plastered all over my window ! Virgin for California???? I HOPE NOT !!!:roll::roll::roll:
Virgin of course do not have an experience of high speed train operations with in-cab signalling........they could not even run a cross country service with a new fleet of trains !!!!!!!!!
XC Hmmmmmm......no they lost that one !!!!!

 

[jopsuk]

Unless there's some serious advances in train tech, or they build a maglev network, I wouldn't expect to see trans-continental High Speed rail, other than perhaps a southern chain of routes. Flights start to win out once rail travel times go over two-three hours- Chicago-San Fransisco, for example, is around 2000 miles, so with current service speeds you'd still be looking at a ten hour journey (if there were no stops!), versus a fourish hour flight- the transit/check in/security times aren't such a problem at that difference.

That is, of course, before you consider the engineering challeneg of building a straightish line through the Rockies!

 

[mrcheek]

Would be great to see the US do some major upgrades, and build some major new lines. and as soon as they have a decent network in place, no matter who builds it, Ill investigate the cost of a United States All Line Rover!

 

[First class]

Stagecoach and First have both failed over in the US transport economy- ok- in buses, but Virgin must think they have some sort of better plan...

Trains are not as well patronised over the Atlantic- and Virgin's task will be to advertise the benefits of rail extremely heavily. Perhaps with the recent plane crashes, people will think twice about flying.

Also, if they set up a similar fare structure to here, with stupid restrictions and prices, then it's just not going to work.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

irgin have introduced new high speed trains that have cut journey times so they are responsible for increasing journey times. Problems due to overhead wires and random plane crashes they are not.

As stethomson90 above stated trains are not as well patronised in the US - given the sheer size of the country and distance between cities air transport will always be the premier choice of transport. As for as connecting major cities on the east coast a futuristic maglev train may seem attractive to some.

 

[Techniquest]

Would be great to see the US do some major upgrades, and build some major new lines. and as soon as they have a decent network in place, no matter who builds it, Ill investigate the cost of a United States All Line Rover!

I agree, the US needs some decent rail services to compete properly with the airlines. They may have some proper trains over there that do the job they're asked to do (unlike UK trains!), but when you're crawling along at low speeds it's just not going to work. Even the HoW looks like a short journey compared to the journey times over there!

As for a US ALR, I think I saw a 15-day Amtrak rover that weighed in around £185 back in 2006, which was valid all across America IIRC. It appeared exceptional value for money. What it is now I have no idea but even the UK's ALR (which represents excellent VFM to me) is a rip off in comparison!

Like others, I'm not sure if Virgin are the best people for the job on this one. That said, they do appear to be the 21st Century's GWR, in that they're masters of PR and spin.

 

[me123]

The US ALR is the USA Rail Pass. However, you need reservations for all trains, it does not cover several trains. It's also slightly different to the ALR in that you only get so many journeys over so many days. You're also only allowed 4 one way trips between two cities. You have to pay extra for sleeping accommodation.

There's also a California Rail Pass which, oddly enough, is restricted to California.

All seems a bit crazy and complicated to me. Over here, you can go on any train with an ALR.

 

[jopsuk]

The US ALR is the USA Rail Pass. However, you need reservations for all trains, it does not cover several trains. It's also slightly different to the ALR in that you only get so many journeys over so many days. You're also only allowed 4 one way trips between two cities. You have to pay extra for sleeping accommodation.


All seems a bit crazy and complicated to me. Over here, you can go on any train with an ALR.

Seems reasonable- they're trying to stop it being used as some sort of season ticket, Auto Train is a dedicated motorail service, ACELA is an (up to) 150mph high-speed tilting train in the north east (based on TGV tech!), the Thruway coaches are run by someone else and it's limited to just the USA. You pay extra for a sleeper berth here too. Oh, and on Interrail you pay extra for High Speed and sleeper trains.

The only odd bit, I reckon, is the reservation/limited seats thing.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure Virgin would love to introduce hideously expensive "Anytime" (or whatever they call rip-off fares in the US) fares at £400+ from Los Angeles to San Francisco. There would be 1 in 10 seats with a window view, only tables would have power sockets and all toilets would stink.

Passengers able to commit to planning 3 months in advance only pay £10. Off Peak conditions would change every few months and there would be 100 different rules on when they are valid. Anyone chinged mega bucks unfairly would have to go to the media to get their money back, resulting in a full refund and a free 1st class trip.

A budget of $1m a year would be set aside for lawsuits from standard class passengers who can't fit in the seats who are refused a free 1st class upgrade and passengers accidentally spilling hot drinks on them when the train is tilting.

The shop would be replaced with a McDonalds, but with Virgin pricing so a full meal would cost about $20.

Virgin would promise billions of dollars in premium to the US Government but then demand a few billion in subsidy just because the speed is about 15mph slower than it should have been.

 

[Metroland]

Well I'm glad the Americans are going for HSR, be useful on the east and western sides where cities are quite close together.

Despite the 'anti-rail' image of the country, it actually has more rail line than any other, and most freight is on the rails. Light rail has also been popular of late, and city railways like 'transit' have ridership at a 40 year high.

 

[jopsuk]

Well I'm glad the Americans are going for HSR, be useful on the east and western sides where cities are quite close together.

"quite" being somewhat relative- Boston and Washington are further apart than London and Edinburgh, and on the video on the Cal HS site they point out the similarity in length of France and California! Of course, they're using that to reinforce the arguement.

 

[Metroland]

Well yep, although there is a lot of places in between those points. Not going to see a line across the middle any time soon though for HSR, distances are far too great.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

 

[Broken Viking]

Well yep, although there is a lot of places in between those points. Not going to see a line across the middle any time soon though for HSR, distances are far too great.

I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. The USA might be about 4,500 miles wide (Or a "Size M" by Texan standards! ) measured coast-to-coast, but in my view that's a perfect distance for some decent, proper HSR operation!

Granted, stopping services calling at every significant town en-route are a rather impractical idea (Greyhound do this, and it took me three days to travel coast-to-coast as a result) but a well-planned express service calling at only three or four stops on the way would allow for a decent "backbone" service that could connect with slower, more localised traffic. 8)

After all...At an average speed of 5,000mph, the coast-to-coast timing would only be around 55 minutes - And even if a pathetic 1,100mph speed limit was applied, the journey would be around four hours or so...That's three hours quicker than most airlines, and around the same speed as Concorde!

Not possible to do those speeds by rail? Well...There are things on my drawing board here that'd do the above and much more. They'd not be as safe as a Pendo maybe, but they'd do the job. In any case, if BR could get away with the APT back in the 80's, I can get away with a slightly faster APT-II now!

 

[Darandio]

We well might as well chuck in some statistics in here to back up/or negate the argument for a east/west rail link.

The shortest distance from the East to West Coast is 2,092 miles (3,347 km) from San Diego, CA to Jacksonville, FL.

Its roughly about 3400 miles at it's widest point .

 

[Yank 119]

Woah...The US of America has finally woken up to the truth that trains can exceed 30mph at long last?

About bleedin' time too...The USA is the only country I have ever visited where I wound up choosing the intercity bus network over the rail system! hock::roll:

That would be a helluva improvement and no mistake! When I did the same journey by bus; I left Los Agujero del Culo at about 21:00, and didn't arrive in San Francisco until about 09:20 the next morning...And that timing was only because my bus somehow got lucky and wedged itself just in front of the morning jams for the Bay Bridge! hock:

It seriously took you over 12 hours to travel between those two cities? On Amtrak train #14, you'd get to Oakland a good half hour before that...but then you have to factor the BUS RIDE over the bay into SF, so both options are about even - except for the fact you took an overnight coach ride when you could have had an all-day train journey through some spectacular scenery...

I wish 'em the be(a)st of luck with that project...A lot of the existing system is only designed for 30mph freights, and there'll be an obscene amount of new P-Way needing construction! hock:

I'd like to know where you're getting this arbitrary "30 mph". On average, main line freight trains, on most railroads, can go 60mph. BNSF's intermodal operations on their transcontinental route regularly exceed 70mph..and we're talking 5,000 - 10,000 foot long trains. The standard speed limit set for passenger trains in non-cab signal territory in 79 mph. If a line is equipped with cab signals, diesel trains can attain 110mph. These areas are few and far between, but we're more likely to see this sort of thing over widespread electrification in the mean time. As already stated, the Northeast Corridor between Washington and Boston does sustain speeds of 150mph, but the majority of the Corridor trains travel 100-125. Sound familiar?

Obama has all the tools he needs to sort it out: Build the new rail system, get it tested and working properly, then make air travel illegal for all journeys that don't involve a sea crossing! 8)

Personally, I'm liking the look of this very much. When it comes to HSR for the US though, I've been entertaining ideas on this subject for years...And I'd really like to see those realised too, especially as they'd both meet and exceed everyone's most obscene imaginations! 8)

Does anyone have Barack Obama's telephone number?... hock:
>> Death <<

All the tools he needs. Yeah, except widespread bow-down support of a national HSR system. It needs to be done, but definitely look for more development of corridors like in the densely populated state of California. As far as transcontinental HSR, the population density of the majority of the Western states will not support it. People would rather fly over the Rockies. Eastern corridors will flourish, along with the north-south coirrdors on the coasts.

 

[mbonwick]

The journey would take less than three hours and voters in California have already agreed to raise $10 billion to start work on a line that would run from Sacramento, the state capital, to San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego.

Sacramento, the place where the first bit of the world's first trans-continental railroad was laid.

 

[me123]

Chicago-LA is just over 2,000 miles by car (2,016 to be precise). Do it at an average speed of, say, 160mph, you can do it in 12 hours 36 minutes. At 175mph, it drops to 11 and a half hours.

There could well be potential for some high speed sleepers if you can get it, and some day trains too! But these are, of course, seriously high speeds to maintain! Remember you'll need to maintain a speed above the average for some time because of the acceleration and deceleration time.

 

[jopsuk]

Chicago-LA is just over 2,000 miles by car (2,016 to be precise). Do it at an average speed of, say, 160mph, you can do it in 12 hours 36 minutes. At 175mph, it drops to 11 and a half hours.

There could well be potential for some high speed sleepers if you can get it, and some day trains too! But these are, of course, seriously high speeds to maintain! Remember you'll need to maintain a speed above the average for some time because of the acceleration and deceleration time.

The thing is that the Rockies is a HUGE barrier. You'll notice that the dedicated high-speed lines in Europe stop at the foothills of the Alps- on the eastern flank at least the Rockies don't really have foothills, just UP- I din't appreciate this until I came back from Denver last month (way out, we arrived in darkness). The technical challenge of running any sort of new line through the mountains is big; one straight enough to run at 150-200mph is probably beyond any fiscal reality and would be a huge leap in technical terms. Huge tunnels and massive bridges would be required.

 

[me123]

My Amercian geography is limited to cities and states, not geographical features. Still, I can't believe I omitted the Rockies from my vision Still, it's a dream...

 

[Yank 119]

My Amercian geography is limited to cities and states, not geographical features. Still, I can't believe I omitted the Rockies from my vision Still, it's a dream...

Geography is very important. Have a look at this:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=272540

 

[jopsuk]

My Amercian geography is limited to cities and states, not geographical features. Still, I can't believe I omitted the Rockies from my vision Still, it's a dream...

the east face of the Rockies is incredible. You know the south face of the Ochils, by Stirling? Imagine that, only something like three or four times the height.

 

[TGVDUDE]

sounds good but virgin failed on wcml bad choice obama

 

[175001]

The thing is that the Rockies is a HUGE barrier. You'll notice that the dedicated high-speed lines in Europe stop at the foothills of the Alps- on the eastern flank at least the Rockies don't really have foothills, just UP- I din't appreciate this until I came back from Denver last month (way out, we arrived in darkness). The technical challenge of running any sort of new line through the mountains is big; one straight enough to run at 150-200mph is probably beyond any fiscal reality and would be a huge leap in technical terms. Huge tunnels and massive bridges would be required.

And who would want to go 160mph, when you miss out the journey between Denver and Grand Junction?! That for me is one of my best ever journeys, on the Cali Zephyr! So good, I'm doing it again in July!