Virgin train fails to stop at station - how does this happen?

[PermitToTravel]

If it is desired to use technology to tell drivers where they should stop then it should be done in the cab, either with a new screen (perhaps even looking BVE-esque), or yet another beeping noise.

 

[Kristofferson]

As I said earlier, I'm surprised some train management computers don't have the itinerary loaded in for each trip. All you'd need is a data connection and the head code?

Edit: or just link it to the PIS?

 

[Antman]

I was on a bus that got lost once, and some passengers had to tell the driver how to get back on the route. At least that can't happen on a train !

It can on a rail replacement bus serivce.................and often does

 

[Antman]

Couple of weeks ago I had a driver stop at Woolwich Dockyard when it should have been non stop from Woolwich Arsenal to Charlton (a special extra Slade Green to Charing Cross service, ruined the RT running that was the case up to that point :P :P)

Maybe it's something about the area but I was on a Dartford bound train which left Woolwich Arsenal and ran non stop to Abbey Wood, it should have stopped at Plumstead although Gillingham trains don't stop there which is probably what threw the driver. He did make a very apologetic PA announcment and most passengers saw the funny side of it all

 

[Llanigraham]

And who do you think is going to do the download?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Can be done automatically when they're in the depot, like buses.

Can't imagine it ever being better than just printing and handing schedules out to drivers, though

 

[O L Leigh]

As I said earlier, I'm surprised some train management computers don't have the itinerary loaded in for each trip. All you'd need is a data connection and the head code?

Edit: or just link it to the PIS?

To my recollection Cl379s had something like this. But we were told not to trust it and rely on our schedule cards.

Fahad: How does that sound? Could the stopping pattern possibly be represented in some other visual format rather than by adding another electrical system that could fail? Say, a piece of paper with the stops printed on it? There are more than enough things that go beep in the cabs as it is without adding another, thank you very much.

As for ensuring that a stop is not missed, if a driver loses concentration or becomes distracted and fails to check the schedule card, what makes a screen any more effective?

O L Leigh

 

[ComUtoR]

As I said earlier, I'm surprised some train management computers don't have the itinerary loaded in for each trip. All you'd need is a data connection and the head code?

Edit: or just link it to the PIS?

If it is desired to use technology to tell drivers where they should stop then it should be done in the cab, either with a new screen (perhaps even looking BVE-esque), or yet another beeping noise.

375/376/... Both have Mitrac. Mitrac will visually display the stopping pattern on the display. This is entered manually by the use of PIS codes for EVERY trip. It has GPS and automagically announces each station through the PA and you can hear this in the cab (providing an audible cue)

465/466 Also have an in cab system for automagic PIS announcements. Again, it is both audible and visual in cab

Fahad: How does that sound? Could the stopping pattern possibly be represented in some other visual format rather than by adding another electrical system that could fail?

If the Mitrac fails then the units is Out of service. If the 465/466 system it is business as usual.

 

[Mintona]

375/376/... Both have Mitrac. Mitrac will visually display the stopping pattern on the display. This is entered manually by the use of PIS codes for EVERY trip. It has GPS and automagically announces each station through the PA and you can hear this in the cab (providing an audible cue)

465/466 Also have an in cab system for automagic PIS announcements. Again, it is both audible and visual in cab



If the Mitrac fails then the units is Out of service. If the 465/466 system it is business as usual.

375/376 Mitrac doesn't show the next station on the screen in the driving cab, it only displays in the passenger saloon. Most drivers have the Mitrac screen blank whilst driving as it is a distraction, but even with the screen on at the drivers home page, it doesn't display the next station or calling pattern. And if you start braking when you hear the announcement behind you, you will usually way overshoot the station as it plays just as you are arriving. The announcement doesn't play in the cab, and it can be difficult to hear through the cab fan anyway.

The 465/466 system is easier to hear, but again it only starts playing as you approach a station, and you would again overshoot most stations if you start braking when it goes off. The visible display is a tiny screen located at knee height on the right hand side, and only changes to display the next station as the audible announcements play - hardly a suitable place to be looking, and again you will overshoot if you start braking when it changes.

And a unit may be taken out of service with the PIS not working, it depends if the other functions are working or not. If there is no PA or cab-to-cab then it's gone.

 

[ComUtoR]

375/376 Mitrac doesn't show the next station on the screen in the driving cab, it only displays in the passenger saloon. Most drivers have the Mitrac screen blank whilst driving as it is a distraction, but even with the screen on at the drivers home page, it doesn't display the next station or calling pattern.

Gonna have to double check that one as I was sure it displayed the next station on the Drivers Screen **EDIT* Yep I can confirm it displays the next station **EDIT**

Mitrac can be a useful tool and whether or not a Driver chooses to hit the "Dark Screen" button is up to them. However its is a tool and can be used to aid the driver. Even if only for train length information. A distraction to one Driver isn't the same to another and most will use whatever tool is available to them to help.

And if you start braking when you hear the announcement behind you, you will usually way overshoot the station as it plays just as you are arriving. The announcement doesn't play in the cab, and it can be difficult to hear through the cab fan anyway.

No one should brake according to the PIS announcements it would be a very stupid thing to do. "Most" Drivers also trip the MCB use the mitrac to disable the fan

The 465/466 system is easier to hear, but again it only starts playing as you approach a station, and you would again overshoot most stations if you start braking when it goes off. The visible display is a tiny screen located at knee height on the right hand side, and only changes to display the next station as the audible announcements play - hardly a suitable place to be looking, and again you will overshoot if you start braking when it changes.

it is not "tiny" and is easily readable (when it works) and is more waist height than knee height. Again its a tool to be used as an aid to driving and barely takes a fraction of a second to look at.

And a unit may be taken out of service with the PIS not working, it depends if the other functions are working or not. If there is no PA or cab-to-cab then it's gone.

Those are independent of each other. The PIS itself does not take a train out of service. Your correct that the PA will.

IF C-C is defective the reach a clear understanding with the guard where appropriate. Starting bell can be used to relay information.

If bell communication is defective then ....

If BOTH are defective then carry out instructions from KICC

The reason I quoted those posts (Fahad, Kris, O L) and used the 376/465's systems as examples was to highlight to those above that there are already systems in place that can be used in the cab as aide memoir's to drivers. We can discus pitfalls and benefits of both systems at length in another thread.

Drivers use a multitude of skills to help them stop at the correct place, and at the correct time. I wouldn't knock any Driver for their preferred aid memoir. I would also support technology to improve it. Love it or hate it the Mitrac could be updated to show a more useful screen rather than 2 clocks... However; nothing is going to replace a Drivers skills and human error always occur unless Full ATO.....

 

[O L Leigh]

The reason I quoted those posts (Fahad, Kris, O L) and used the 376/465's systems as examples was to highlight to those above that there are already systems in place that can be used in the cab as aide memoir's to drivers.

Yes, I am aware. Having driven Cl379s I am familiar with the MITRAC screen showing the stopping patterns. However, as I said, we were told not to rely on it and continue to use the schedule cards. If we failed to call because of an error on the MITRAC we would still be in for discipline because we hadn't used our schedule cards. I'm not familiar with the Networker PIS systems but if it's anything like the Turbostar system it requires the driver to input the route code manually before departure. It's possible to make a mistake and input the wrong code in error and therefore get an incorrect stopping pattern for your service.

Provided you have the correct schedule card for that job on that day and you stop at every station on the list you cannot be disciplined for failing to call. The error in that case would lie with train planning. The requirement to go wading through the Special Trains Notices looking for amended stopping patterns no longer exists thanks to short sighted term planning.

O L Leigh

 

[driver_m]

Been reading this with obvious interest for some time now, thought I'd throw this in. We already have computerised pois lists available, and we already have station ahead alerts. These are linked with the onboard reservation system and GPS. Regular travellers going southbound will notice the auto announcer informing of a stop at Milton Keynes when going through wolverton. That's when we get alerted for MK as an example. (221 has it too and works slightly differently due to the different tms system)

 

[O L Leigh]

driver_m: Thanks, you've just jogged my memory.

Reliance on the PIS assumes that it's working in the first place. A defective GPS receiver or a loss of signal is often all it takes to scupper it. It's a common fault on Cl170s at least. Also it's incredibly easy to confuse it. If you get a stop order it will simply show "Off Route" on the cab display.

I've yet to hear anything more substantial than rumour about DAS, but maybe that will include your stopping pattern. But for as long as there are schedule cards I shall continue my paranoid reliance on them as the definitive guide to my stopping patterns. It's my evidence and the best insurance against fouling up.

O L Leigh

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, I am aware. Having driven Cl379s I am familiar with the MITRAC screen showing the stopping patterns. However, as I said, we were told not to rely on it and continue to use the schedule cards. If we failed to call because of an error on the MITRAC we would still be in for discipline because we hadn't used our schedule cards. I'm not familiar with the Networker PIS systems but if it's anything like the Turbostar system it requires the driver to input the route code manually before departure. It's possible to make a mistake and input the wrong code in error and therefore get an incorrect stopping pattern for your service.

Provided you have the correct schedule card for that job on that day and you stop at every station on the list you cannot be disciplined for failing to call. The error in that case would lie with train planning. The requirement to go wading through the Special Trains Notices looking for amended stopping patterns no longer exists thanks to short sighted term planning.

O L Leigh

Totally agree.

The Driver is ultimately responsible for the train and where it stops. Stop according to your route knowledge and personal driving skills. The schedule is issued when you book on and that determines where your "booked" to go. Whatever else you use to provide aid memoirs is a personal thing. I have found that the newer Drivers embrace technology.

O L, I certainly wasn't contrary to your advice in any way and only sought to highlight the tech available.

FYI the networker PIS is relatively new and is fuggered beyond belief. It has a remote database and is supposed to update units every night as it polls the information. They have sim cards and GPS. Yes you are right that you need to input the PIS code that's listed on your diagram and it is then your responsibility to check it. Sadly this actually isn't possible with networker PIS because it only displays destination and no route confirmation. It can only be set from the leading DMOS and the rear DMOS is in "Slave Mode" when not in use. It has a small list of manual codes "Listen to announcements.. etc." as well as destination codes without route info. The Handset is also linked to the GSMR and you need to select the GSMR on the unit to use it.

Its not a bad system when its working correctly and removes the tedium of making announcements. One less task for the driver means they can concentrate out the pointy end more.

Guards will often still make announcements on SE services and I suppose that's a good thing because passenger surveys tend to lean against robots making them. As mentioned above you can use a manual code to make service announcements. "This train is delayed due to a fault, Diverted etc." Again I think the more modern Drivers tend to use a code rather than pick up the handset.

Mitrac also requires manual input.

Carrying on from above posters. Yes there can be in cab tech but as OL posted its still reliant on humans input and the Driver stopping the unit. No one intends to make an error and considering the number of stops per diagram (metro services) The % of error is thankfully very low. Consistent errors are questionable and may highlight other issues but one offs can be forgivable. Cuppa tea in the DM's office is usually sufficient. Drivers will castigate themselves much more.

 

[O L Leigh]

FYI the networker PIS is relatively new and is fuggered beyond belief. It has a remote database and is supposed to update units every night as it polls the information. They have sim cards and GPS. Yes you are right that you need to input the PIS code that's listed on your diagram and it is then your responsibility to check it. Sadly this actually isn't possible with networker PIS because it only displays destination and no route confirmation. It can only be set from the leading DMOS and the rear DMOS is in "Slave Mode" when not in use. It has a small list of manual codes "Listen to announcements.. etc." as well as destination codes without route info. The Handset is also linked to the GSMR and you need to select the GSMR on the unit to use it.

Its not a bad system when its working correctly and removes the tedium of making announcements. One less task for the driver means they can concentrate out the pointy end more.

Yup, sounds just like the Cl170 system. You have my sympathies.

O L Leigh

 

[notadriver]

I think this is a bad idea - looking at the Mitrac for unnecessary things such as this adds unnecessary risk and if the database and or GPS itself is faulty the whole thing won't work. Drivers usually have a set way of doing things - switching to a new method because they have been relying on technology adds risk.

If this problem is really that bad get rid of the driver completely and install ATO.

 

[driver_m]

driver_m: Thanks, you've just jogged my memory.

Reliance on the PIS assumes that it's working in the first place. A defective GPS receiver or a loss of signal is often all it takes to scupper it. It's a common fault on Cl170s at least. Also it's incredibly easy to confuse it. If you get a stop order it will simply show "Off Route" on the cab display.

I've yet to hear anything more substantial than rumour about DAS, but maybe that will include your stopping pattern. But for as long as there are schedule cards I shall continue my paranoid reliance on them as the definitive guide to my stopping patterns. It's my evidence and the best insurance against fouling up.

O L Leigh

Yeah, DAS was trialled with us but not heard anything about it for a while. As for the tms pois lists we are still using paper pois lists if you want to draw your own conclusions to its reliability. Stop/not to stop orders are still paper too.

 

[otomous]

If my employer told me that a computer screen was superseding my paper schedule and that was now my 'bible' then fine. It would have to be more reliable than now though - sometimes you haven't realised after 4 stops that MITRAC has got stuck on the first one because of a GPS issue - because you are actually concentrating on driving the train rather than looking at a screen or listening to announcements. Then there would have to be the culture change by both drivers and TOC. Not that this should be a reason for not using technology, but in my brief experience of the industry, I can just imagine the first time a fail to call occurred because the screen failed there would be an instruction to print out the schedules as well and that drivers should double check, stopping if necessary, thus negating the point of the thing. And drivers would need full assurance that it wouldn't be held against them.

 

[LAX54]

Actually I think it could, if a signalman accidentally routed a driver onto a route he didn't know and he accepted it. If that's wrong then correct me. It's very unlikely of course.

Happened many years ago near Norwich ! Norwich - Liverpool service wrong routed at Trowse Junction, (Signalman had cleared for the IC service in error) Driver took route, had to be stopped by signals some 3 or 4 miles up the line, he had not noticed he was on an OHL route (it was dark!) or that the viaduct he was supposed to go under, he went over the line he should have been on !
Problem then was, he was in the middle of an area he had not got an clue about !