Virgin to sue Network Rail

[High Dyke]

http://opensource.sys-con.com/node/2690939

(Article in full here for those who don't subscribe)

Having read the article on the attached link. It only has the point of view of Virgin Trains, it doesn't contain any comment from Network Rail; therefore to 'Joe Public' it does look imbalanced.

An article on the Network Rail intranet site (only available to NR staff) reflecting the news states:

A year ago we invited Chris Gibb, Virgin Trains’ chief operating officer to join us on secondment to better understand the operational challenges we face in running ever more trains on what is Europe’s busiest mixed-use rail line.

The report he compiled is available here: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/wcs-reliability-programme-191112.pdf

A quote from it does acknowledge improvement.

Work has been undertaken to analyse the emerging Network Rail led initiatives, review their quality and the risks to delivery of the delay minutes savings and better understand the implementation profile.

There are more than 330 initiatives underway that impact on Rugby to Euston performance, contained in more than eight different improvement plans. Analysis and investigation of these has been completed, and it is now possible to confirm how these initiatives are expected to reduce delay minutes. Of particular interest are the five priority delay categories, which are now forecast to reduce as follows over the next year. The outcomes are more difficult to forecast accurately the further one looks into the future.

 

[Dave1987]

Where do you get that ppm figure from as there website states 87.5%

My apologies, Virgins right time figure is 48.9%, their ppm figure is 83.5% (which is the worst of all TOCs by the way!)

 

[Qwerty133]

My apologies, Virgins right time figure is 48.9%, their ppm figure is 83.5% (which is the worst of all TOCs by the way!)

Which to be fair would be expected to be the lowest as the wcml is the highest used route and they have no short journeys which artificially raise the percentage (such as the Stourbridge shuttle for LM)

 

[Philip Elliott]

My apologies, Virgins right time figure is 48.9%, their ppm figure is 83.5% (which is the worst of all TOCs by the way!)

FGW Intercity services are lower....

 

[rebmcr]

FGW Intercity services are lower....

OK but "FGW Intercity" isn't a TOC.

 

[Muzer]

OK but "FGW Intercity" isn't a TOC.

But Virgin don't own any branch lines or other "easy" lines. I honestly wonder what people expect with Virgin - they're not going to have the highest PPM in the world, especially not because they only run mainline services. Their PPM isn't too far off other similar TOCs with InterCity services like East Coast AFAIR (do correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[tbtc]

They could avoid all of this brouhaha if Network Rail agreed to compensate TOCs for every delay that Network Rail was responsible for (and vice versa).

Oh...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But Virgin don't own any branch lines or other "easy" lines. I honestly wonder what people expect with Virgin

Then again, Virgin don't operate any 1970s/1980s trains

 

[merlodlliw]

Take Chester, pre Virgin 3 trains a day to London, now hourly, I dont blame VT for taking action against Network Rail who pay its Directors a fortune in Bonus for failure.

 

[Pumbaa]

funny that because it seemed to have been accepted and being worked up into an implementation plan last I heard. Perhaps there was some other report.......

(report here: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/wcs-reliability-programme-191112.pdf )

I'm aware of what's going on, I was just trying to exemplify this action is coming from within VRG rather than external bearded influences. Nonetheless it would seem NRs response so far has not been up to scratch.

 

[Geezertronic]

Then again, Virgin don't operate any 1970s/1980s trains

I imagine the fact that they operate 9 trains per hour each way in and out of Euston has an effect on the figures during a WCML South failure. It's not as if they are running a couple of trains each way so wouldn't the possibility of delays to 18 trains per hour of failure skew the figures somewhat compared to other TOCs, especially if some of those have to be cancelled in order to maintain some level of service?

 

[Dave1987]

But Virgin don't own any branch lines or other "easy" lines. I honestly wonder what people expect with Virgin - they're not going to have the highest PPM in the world, especially not because they only run mainline services. Their PPM isn't too far off other similar TOCs with InterCity services like East Coast AFAIR (do correct me if I'm wrong).

Virgin choose to only bid on the intercity lines and the ones that are about to see big investment like the ECML and they wanted to cherry pick the intercity services to Norwich but not the commuter services! I have no sympathy for them at all in that respect.

 

[tbtc]

I imagine the fact that they operate 9 trains per hour each way in and out of Euston has an effect on the figures during a WCML South failure. It's not as if they are running a couple of trains each way so wouldn't the possibility of delays to 18 trains per hour of failure skew the figures somewhat compared to other TOCs, especially if some of those have to be cancelled in order to maintain some level of service?

Yes, but then the same could be said of Chiltern, Merseyrail or C2C which all involve running a significant number of services over a two track section.

 

[Muzer]

Virgin choose to only bid on the intercity lines and the ones that are about to see big investment like the ECML and they wanted to cherry pick the intercity services to Norwich but not the commuter services! I have no sympathy for them at all in that respect.

If I had a company with a good brand image, I wouldn't want to be associated with slow, local trains that people see every day and thus end up complaining about. If I had a bus company, on the other hand, which is already associated with even slower, even more local and even less reliable things, then I'd be all for trains - it's a step up in image in comparison.

Virgin is the only company that *HAS* a public image. Clearly they are the only ones who will attempt to preserve it in that regard.

In some ways, I can see that there is something to be said for splitting InterCity from local services. I should imagine it would make matters of subsidy from the government or payments to the government easier - InterCity and commuter services pay the government; local ones get paid. It would also mean the TOCs could specialise more and so potentially become more efficient. I'm not saying I'm for it; just that it would have its merits, as it did in BR days.



I'm just amazed that, in the minds of some enthusiasts, Virgin seems to be held in a higher regard than London Midland, for example, who ran out of drivers.

 

[bb21]

Everyone will have a different focus when they look at a train company so different people will draw different conclusions depending on what you consider important.

I do not like the company whatsoever because their ticket office staff must be one of the least knowledgeable amongst the TOCs. Only last week I was given a new excuse (a non-existent rule and a different one every time it seems) not to excess my ticket but instead being told that I had to buy a new ticket, and that was confirmed by the floor manager. The result? I simply went to an LM staff with an Avantix machine about 50 yards away and the ticket was excessed with no hassle whatsoever. He confirmed that the rule stated by Virgin staff did not exist.

 

[Bevan Price]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/27e392ae-cece-11e2-ae25-00144feab7de.html#axzz2VWSKF3fd

Virgin are to sue NR over the continued poor performance of the WCML and their seeming inability and unwillingness to do anything about it.

The only winners are likely to be rich lawyers.

 

[The Planner]

At watford virgin are making networkr rail work extra hard to maintain a TSR at 80 not 50. Thats effort and money removed from other people.

Which has got to the point where it is going to be made a PSR like the TSR currently on at Norton Bridge.

 

[martybabes]

The only winners are likely to be rich lawyers.

An old and tired cliché.

 

[tsubaki]

Having had the "Little Box of Snacks" served to me twice on Virgin Trains, I hope NR both win this lawsuit and are awarded the right to set a swarm of deadly deadly bees upon Branson and his senior cohorts.

 

[whhistle]

This is nothing to do with Beardy. This is being spearheaded by Gibb after the time he spent with NR on secondment.

Correct!

Branson - The "face" of the "Virgin" group of companies. To be fair, he's actually quite a nice chap, well respected and knows how to make money. Nobody can blame him with all the PR about his companies as if I could, then I probably would.
I don't agree with his stance on legalising a number of drugs.
The problem with Mr B is that he gets bored quickly. He is never involved with the company until it needs some sort of big PR message. He will never give up the airline as that was his first major business, and his record company is another keeper, but everything else is just for show.

Gibb - The tall man with the plan.

Collins - Gibb's puppet. While I have not met the guy, I would assume he isn't the most intelligent.

Virgin - Usually 49% owned by someone else, so the Virgin Group still have control of the company, but financed under someone else. A good business model really as Virgin gets famous, meaning better contracts and more money, while the underwriters finance all the divisions.


A bold move by VRG and a complete gamble as it will either win favour and set an example / open the door for others or it will completely backfire, win no further support in parliament and ultimately be the end of their 15 years of fame / pain (to quote a recent advert).

 

[WatcherZero]

Conclusive prove the RMT doesnt actually know what nationalisation and privatisation is:

Despite this key evidence in favour of renationalising the railways, the train operators, with the support of the Government and the McNulty Rail Review, are launching a fresh drive to turn the clock back to the lethal days of Railtrack through the privatisation of the infra-structure. Last week, Sir Richard Branson led the charge with a thinly-veiled demand to take over the track on the West Coast.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

“The CRSSC and TUC report nails once and for all the lies and myths that rail privatisation has somehow benefitted our railways and shows that at every level RMT, the other unions and passenger groups are winning the argument for public ownership hands down.

“However, on the day that the report came our Sir Richard Branson was out there banging the drum for more privatisation and the creation of what amounts to nothing less than “Railtrack 2”, despite all the evidence from the tragedies at Hatfield and Potters Bar that privatisation played a key part in those needless disasters.

“The truth, as demonstrated by the CRSSC and TUC report, is that Network Rail remains the best vehicle for taking the entire railway back into public ownership. That is why the train operators and the Government are so keen to smash it to pieces.”

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=174629

 

[jon0844]

Was privatisation a 'key' part of those above mentioned disasters? A part, yes, but key part?

I thought part of the problem was that Railtrack had poor knowledge of its assets early on, and that was partly down to very poor tracking of data under BR. Relying on local knowledge, or even the knowledge of individuals as against a proper, recognised and updated database.

In effect, for some time (and certainly AFTER the disasters) it forced a massive check of the whole network to establish just how bad things had got.

You've got to hand it to Bob though. I don't think he's ignorant, but very clever and knows that the people he speaks to in the press and the people who read the stories in the press are the ones that are ignorant.

Look at all the anti-TOC groups on Facebook, blogs etc and you'll always see how misinformed most of them are about how the railway operates. Greedy TOCs that don't buy new trains, won't extend platforms, build new stations etc etc.

The list goes on - people just don't understand what a TOC can and can't do, and how much is decided by Government.

Bob can play on this and help blame everything on private companies, and that just continues to portray them as responsible for everything and strengthen the desire to renationalise.

And, so, Bob gets the public to support him.

It all goes quite well of course until Bob organises the next strike and undoes all of that support and loyalty from angry commuters, who then go back to moaning about unions and seem to forget what they were moaning about the week before!

 

[maniacmartin]

And, so, Bob gets the public to support him.

#

He does? Could've fooled me

 

[jon0844]

#

He does? Could've fooled me

As I said, I think he does when he talks up greedy operators giving themselves bonuses while users are made to travel on crowded, dirty, trains.

There are plenty of people who argue that we should go back to BR and think that this would solve all the problems, as if the only thing holding the railway back are greedy private operators only interested in profit and deliberately running old, short, trains to maximise profit for shareholders.

But then he shoots himself in the foot when supporting industrial action, as everyone then turns against him and the nasty unions.