Virgin to Blackpool/Shrewsbury, 2 years on.

[thenorthern]

From what I gather the Shrewsbury service has been a success and from what I gather more for Telford than anywhere else as Telford was effectively a very large town with a relatively small station and only suburban trains calling there.

Do we know how many of the Shropshire passengers are using it to travel to the West Midlands? That's not a bad thing of course but if it's true then surely Shrewsbury to Birmingham needs increasing

Back in 2003 it used to be 3 trains per hour from Wolverhampton to Telford Central with the additional one running from Walsall to Wellington but that was withdrawn in 2006 so more trains may be a good idea.

 

[craigybagel]

There have been 3 for a couple of years now specifically to accommodate the Blackpool work. No2 Link was split in two.

Interesting. Does that mean that Blackpool is effectively "bottom link" work then? I'm pretty sure from I've heard at Wolves there's only one link of 4 that goes to Shrewsbury but it's one of the middle links that does it.

 

[Class 170101]

I always thought the more Senior links got the most interesting and least anti-social work.

 

[jimm]

From what I gather the Shrewsbury service has been a success and from what I gather more for Telford than anywhere else as Telford was effectively a very large town with a relatively small station and only suburban trains calling there.

The Virgin services make two stops in Telford (Central and Wellington) and neither station was previously served only by suburban trains - unless you are calling ATW services that only call at Wolverhampton and Smethwick between Telford and Birmingham 'suburban'. If regional expresses are suburban, then Huddersfield, to take but one very busy example, is only served by 'suburban' trains.

 

[neilb62]

I always thought the more Senior links got the most interesting and least anti-social work.

Ahem, the morning Blackpool is done on the end of a 10 Hr Night-shift, the minions are welcome to that, us top-link bods are quite happy with going to Edinburgh! No2 Link do the 57+Long****e work. Everyone goes London, Glasgow, Birmingham and Chester.

 

[craigybagel]

Ahem, the morning Blackpool is done on the end of a 10 Hr Night-shift, the minions are welcome to that, us top-link bods are quite happy with going to Edinburgh! No2 Link do the 57+Long****e work. Everyone goes London, Glasgow, Birmingham and Chester.

I thought it must be something like that

Funnily enough, at my own depot the only distinction between the links is the senior link signs one extra type of traction, which as far as I can tell noone likes driving, and the jobs that involve driving it are all rather unpleasant....

 

[thenorthern]

Given that the service to Shrewsbury is relatively slow beyond Wolverhampton if more services were introduced and the service became a permanent one is there any chance that Network Rail and Virgin Trains would look at increasing the linespeed on the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line.

 

[The Planner]

We have, too expensive for what you get back.

 

[adrock1976]

Do any of the Preston crew still sign IC125s, or has that now dropped of their traction/route cards nowadays?

The reason I ask is because in 1996, I unintentionally ended up on a diversion via Blackburn, Hellifield, and Settle on a Birmingham NS - Edinburgh Waverley (I think it was the 13:05 ex BHM on a Saturday in October) that was an IC125.

 

[matt]

Do any of the Preston crew still sign IC125s, or has that now dropped of their traction/route cards nowadays?

I very much doubt it as Virgin West Coast stopped using HSTs 12 years ago...

 

[neilb62]

I very much doubt it as Virgin West Coast stopped using HSTs 12 years ago...

We lapsed on those years ago in the Valenta days!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given that the service to Shrewsbury is relatively slow beyond Wolverhampton if more services were introduced and the service became a permanent one is there any chance that Network Rail and Virgin Trains would look at increasing the linespeed on the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line.

It very nearly got done (90mph) about 10 years ago but was dropped because of WCRM workload.
There was even a timetable period with 3 minutes lopped off Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton on the assumption that the work would be done, but it had to put back.
Soon it will be slower than any other route out of Shrewsbury (including parts of the Cambrian!), despite being the most important one.
All the necessary signalling work has been done.

 

[craigybagel]

It very nearly got done (90mph) about 10 years ago but was dropped because of WCRM workload.
There was even a timetable period with 3 minutes lopped off Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton on the assumption that the work would be done, but it had to put back.
Soon it will be slower than any other route out of Shrewsbury (including parts of the Cambrian!), despite being the most important one.
All the necessary signalling work has been done.

I do wonder though if there is much point. Presumably the ATW paths through the West Midlands are immovable, and it'd be hard to move the Cambrian times as well with all its single track sections, so those 3 minutes saved would ultimately only end up being spent waiting time at Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton? The LM paths might be a bit more flexible west of Wolverhampton but the Wellington-Shrewsbury section is the only bit they're likely to get over the current 70mph limit anyway.

 

[thenorthern]

Given that under the current franchise/extended franchise Virgin Trains has removed the services to Blackpool and Shrewsbury then later re-introduced them again will the services feature as a core part of the next franchise or as an optional service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given that under the current franchise/extended franchise Virgin Trains has removed the services to Blackpool and Shrewsbury then later re-introduced them again will the services feature as a core part of the next franchise or as an optional service?

They were added at DfT request (ie part of the current franchise spec).

 

[class26]

We have, too expensive for what you get back.

I happened to re read an very old edition of "Modern railways" recently, forget the exact date but about 1981. The article was entitled "13 minutes saved for £55,000"

That was when HST`s were first introduced in Scotland. It involved the northern end of the ECML plus Edinburgh up to Aberdeen. Now whilst things have changed a lot and that was 35 years ago I suspect the "can do" spirit has died as I can`t believe there are no easy wins. Even 13 mins could be saved for £55,000 then even with massive inflation that would still be a bargain now. The work involved some track slewing, corner easing etc plus selective track replacement. is it really beyond Network rail to use some imagination or do they just go for the all bells and whistles option every time ?

 

[tbtc]

I happened to re read an very old edition of "Modern railways" recently, forget the exact date but about 1981. The article was entitled "13 minutes saved for £55,000"

That was when HST`s were first introduced in Scotland. It involved the northern end of the ECML plus Edinburgh up to Aberdeen. Now whilst things have changed a lot and that was 35 years ago I suspect the "can do" spirit has died as I can`t believe there are no easy wins. Even 13 mins could be saved for £55,000 then even with massive inflation that would still be a bargain now. The work involved some track slewing, corner easing etc plus selective track replacement. is it really beyond Network rail to use some imagination or do they just go for the all bells and whistles option every time ?

You can't believe that there are no "easy wins"?

Such as where?

The low hanging fruit has been picked - easy to improve line speed by slewing a single track over the track bed of what used to be a double tracked line, but a lot harder to find further improvements once the line is double tracked.

Easy to complain about a lack of imagination but... where?

 

[The Planner]

Wolves Shrewsbury isnt that though, its track, structures and formation, and for the amount of time saved it does nowt as what will happen for the forseeable future (as already suggested) is that you either sit at Shrewsbury or Wolves for longer.

 

[class26]

You can't believe that there are no "easy wins"?

Such as where?

The low hanging fruit has been picked - easy to improve line speed by slewing a single track over the track bed of what used to be a double tracked line, but a lot harder to find further improvements once the line is double tracked.

Easy to complain about a lack of imagination but... where?

I just asking the question. I wouldn`t mind betting that speeds on the line in question haven`t been raised for decades so if it WAS possible in the 1980`s which it clearly was WHY is it so expensive to do anything now?

What I am probably suggesting is that in the old BR days there was a different attitude to that now. Or maybe I am totally wrong ?

Even on my line (Grantham - Skegness) the track was relaid between Boston and Firsby jnct several years ago and we were told it was now good for 75 mph (at least) but it remains at 60 because it seems its too difficult to move a few signals. But then I was surprised in the summer when on the Far North line to find a stretch at 90 MPH on jointed rail ! Maybe different regions have more of a can do attitude ?

 

[Class 170101]

I thought that bit of line on the Far North was actually Continuous welded rail?

 

[class26]

I thought that bit of line on the Far North was actually Continuous welded rail?

you are right, my mistake but my real point is that it seems to me there is a difference from region to region. I go back to the Skeg line which was built to main line standards , has cwr but the speed stays the same despite promises to be raised to 75mph (maybe if it was in Scotland it would be 90?) whereas on the Far North line , which was hardly built to main line standards there is a section now with 90mph running.
Theres also the Settle and Carlisle line , now fully relaid but the speed stuck at 60 mph. A main line (technically) as well. That is just not consistent.

 

[craigybagel]

Theres also the Settle and Carlisle line , now fully relaid but the speed stuck at 60 mph. A main line (technically) as well. That is just not consistent.

The problem with the S&C as I understand it is that with so many 60mph freight trains and so many long Absolute Block sections if you speed up the passenger trains they'll only end up catching up with the freights anyway.

 

[The Planner]

Relaid, but the formation on the S&C leaves a bit to be desired as well apparently.

 

[Class 170101]

The problem with the S&C as I understand it is that with so many 60mph freight trains and so many long Absolute Block sections if you speed up the passenger trains they'll only end up catching up with the freights anyway.

Not many freights currently, even putting aside the closure at route at its northern end.

 

[Bald Rick]

I just asking the question. I wouldn`t mind betting that speeds on the line in question haven`t been raised for decades so if it WAS possible in the 1980`s which it clearly was WHY is it so expensive to do anything now?

What I am probably suggesting is that in the old BR days there was a different attitude to that now. Or maybe I am totally wrong ?

Even on my line (Grantham - Skegness) the track was relaid between Boston and Firsby jnct several years ago and we were told it was now good for 75 mph (at least) but it remains at 60 because it seems its too difficult to move a few signals. But then I was surprised in the summer when on the Far North line to find a stretch at 90 MPH on jointed rail ! Maybe different regions have more of a can do attitude ?

It's not too difficult. It's too expensive for the benefit it gives.

Bear in mind that in the 80s BR, the published cost of works such as those you quote was basically materials, as everything else was deemed as an 'overhead cost'.

 

[Philip]

Would there be more demand for a direct link between London and Salford-Bolton-Chorley, London and Southport, or London and St Helens than there is currently for London and Blackpool?