Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

[Hellfire]

I wonder what people would have though if Serco-Abellio had bid and won the West Coast Franchise.

London to Glasgow Pacers.

 

[yorksrob]

.

I wonder what people would have though if Serco-Abellio had bid and won the West Coast Franchise.

Judging by East Anglia, basic but not too expensive.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Is there anything stopping some of these service improvements starting next year rather than 2018?

There can't be much scope for either significant or relatively minor changes, until the first of the new trains becomes available.
The new incumbent will probably also need to organise and shape the operation of the company to its own liking before it can set about some of the other changes.

 

[northwichcat]

You rather miss the point. With such a low stake, it's pretty much certain that Virgin is only involved for the branding. So it getting any sort of Stagecoach branding, unless Virgin withdraw, is infinitessimally unlikely.

East Coast Trains is hardly Stagecoach branding! The generically named Central Trains was a National Express company.

 

[BananaRepublic]

..I assume, therefore, that you consider the sale of a profitable and successful publicly owned company a good thing. Please explain why.

I seem to have lost the drift of some of the bickering around the time this was posted.
Which sale of a publicly owned company are you referring to?

But the new trains which will provide the new services are paid for by DfT not Virgin.

The DfT or treasury/government, don't pay for any trains and haven't done for over 20 years.
I assume you are specifically referring to the new trains for the ECML, which VTEC will be operating?
The DfT/government are only paying for the Intercity Express programme (IEP) itself, they are not buying any trains as a result though.
The trains (SET's) are being leased to the TOC (now to be VTEC), by Agility Trains.

 

[yorksrob]

The DfT or treasury/government, don't pay for any trains and haven't done for over 20 years.
I assume you are specifically referring to the new trains for the ECML, which VTEC will be operating?
The DfT/government are only paying for the Intercity Express programme (IEP) itself, they are not buying any trains as a result though.
The trains (SET's) are being leased to the TOC (now to be VTEC), by Agility Trains.

The. Government has paid for lots and lots of trains over the last twenty years, by way of subsidising TOC's who in turn have subsidised the ROSCO's.

 

[BananaRepublic]

The Government has paid for lots and lots of trains over the last twenty years, by way of subsidising TOC's

That is true, although not in a direct way.
I should have been more specific, as I meant to refer to buying new trains and not paying for trains, which is rather different.

.....who in turn have subsidised the ROSCO's.

The TOC's don't subsidise the ROSCO's, they buy a service from them.
However, you can argue that the ROSCO's were subsidised by the government when setting up shop back in the 1990's, when they were given all the old ex-BR stock for peanuts.

 

[yorksrob]

That is true, although not in a direct way.
I should have been more specific, as I meant to refer to buying new trains and not paying for trains, which is rather different.



The TOC's don't subsidise the ROSCO's, they buy a service from them.
However, you can argue that the ROSCO's were subsidised by the government when setting up shop back in the 1990's, when they were given all the old ex-BR stock for peanuts.

I think the reality is that rolling stock is an expensive capital investment and that in the majority of cases, the taxpayer will end up paying one way or another, whoever owns the railway.

The current system just makes more of an effort to hide it.

 

[BananaRepublic]

I think the reality is that rolling stock is an expensive capital investment and that in the majority of cases, the taxpayer will end up paying one way or another, whoever owns the railway.
.

Not necessarily. Many of the TOC's are paying a premium to the government and are not receiving any subsidy. They pay the leasing costs and it's the passengers, not the taxpayer, who quite rightly pays in the long run.
The declared intention is to move as many franchises as possible to a non-subsidy position. Quite what they do with basket cases like the northern franchises is anyones guess.

Of course, when you factor in the costs of providing, maintaining and improving the infrastructure, it's an entirely different matter.


I note that despite the publicised total premium paid by DOR to the treasury being given as nearly £1 billion over the last 5 years, that if the associated network subsidy is factored in, it only equates to about £100 million or so. i.e. just one tenth of the much trumpeted £1 billion.
Of course the same could be said for the actual premium that VTEC will end up paying.

 

[Darandio]

Many of the TOC's are paying a premium to the government and are not receiving any subsidy.

I think you will find that the majority are receiving subsidy, in some form or another, it's just that in some cases, their franchise payment offsets this and they end up with a negative subsidy ppm, which of course looks good.

Take Virgin Trains as an example for this discussion, I believe they received around £180m in subsidy payments for the 2013/14 financial year.

 

[MK Tom]

The Cheltenhams, Bristols etc could be classed as stoppers with the Cardiffs, Swanseas and South West services being made pick up only to ease overcrowding on these services.

At Milton Keynes the extra capacity that Virgin could provide would go a long way to ease the load off LM but Virgin choose to ignore LMs problems to suit their PR machine, I mean we cant have the great MKC unwashed infecting Virgins superior passengers can we!
Can you come up with a legitimate reason for Virgin not to pick up during the morning peak at MKC, they pick up Euston bound later on in the day when its not really needed?
Oh and an ORCATs raid is not a legitimate reason!

I think those services you mention at Reading can only be considered intercity services. Reading's stopping services are the 2tph from Oxford that aren't expresses and the ones that start at Reading, in other words the former Thames Trains services if it were still a two-operator line. Similarly at Peterborough, the equivalent to LM is the Great Northern service, which with a few exceptions is every station to Hitchin at least. Unlike those cases, London Midland do provide an express service from MKC to Euston, which to my mind comprises the xx:06, the xx:14 and the xx:41.

All that said, yes I agree Virgin lifting their restrictions at MKC would be very helpful to the extremely overcrowded conditions on LM services. My understanding always has been that the reason is that their services are overcrowded on arriving here at that time, and my experience of seeing them accords with that.

But yeah, Peterborough is quite a different case to MKC, and is more comparable to Coventry in terms of distance from London and the available stopping service, so I can't see PU only happening there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

East Coast Trains is hardly Stagecoach branding!

Depends what colour you paint it. With that name I'd rather pictured Stagecoach toothpaste livery and "EAST COAST TRAiNS" type branding, very characteristic of all the other Stagecoach TOCs.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If First had taken over in 2012 I have no doubt they would be running the Pendolinos that are on the WCML now.

They certainly would. And while I don't dislike VT, I was quite enthusiastic to find out what their plans for the interior were - certainly there were to be replacement seats (I like the FGW tombstones, though I'm aware many don't) and if there would be any window alignment/density improvements. And the new FGW First Class is nothing short of *classy*.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All that said, yes I agree Virgin lifting their restrictions at MKC would be very helpful to the extremely overcrowded conditions on LM services.

Can I ask (in terms of specific trains) *which* extremely overcrowded conditions you're talking about during the morning peak southbound? There is plenty of space on most LM trains, and there are 5 VTs up to 0713 which are quite heavily used.

The evening peak northbound is less pleasant at times, but still not *that* bad, and the capacity improvements (including upgrading the xx13 services to effectively 20 coaches from 12 by adding a second train) are likely to make a massive difference.

Here's a link to the LM poster, anyway:
http://www.londonmidland.com/download/98662.2/travel-comfy-milton-keynes-may-14/

It appears the 0732 is a problem train. So try one of the others (the one before that often passes me going south when I'm on the 0715 from Bletchley with empty seats south of Leighton). There are shoulder-peak overcrowding issues, but that's a bit different (and VT start calling again as of 0847 anyway).

My observation of LM from pretty frequent use is that any overcrowding issues are very much south of Tring.

Another thought with LM is that if there is another order of units at any point, it might be worth considering 5-car sets, because there are quite a number of trains where 10-car would be a perfect size. Though they'd have to tighten up their rather messy diagramming to get Chiltern-style benefits from that. With 5-car sets you could have 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 and 12-car trains which would match demand much better. (I see little case for 3-car sets as there is almost nothing justifying of 3 on its own).

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

maybe if Virgin shared the load with LM people who can see past the PR wouldnt get on their backs, their services are usually comfortably loaded because they wont let certain people on (the afore mentioned PU only at MKC for one) meaning those passengers have to catch other services (LM) causing them to be crush loaded!

LM fast services south of MKC in the morning peak, except the 0732 off MKC, are *not* "crush loaded". If anything there are spare seats on some of them.

LM could improve the environment on a lot of their trains by making them PU only at MKC as well but where would the passengers go then?

They will be introducing some fast Northampton-Euston trains in the new timetable with no MKC stop.

Its all well and good doing Virgins trick to leave passengers behind (and their PR machine will always turn it into a positive for all) but the passengers forced to stand on the LM service as a result might disagree with you!

Again, who's standing on these MKC services except one of them which is easily avoided by travelling on the one 10 minutes earlier which leaves its last stop at Leighton Buzzard with the rear few coaches occupied to 60% if that?

Neil

 

[Yorkshireguy]

Virgin Trains
East Coast
But Stagecoach too!​

How to not do pretend branding on forums.

Virgin seem to be getting a bit more focus in the news instead of Stagecoach, even though they have the larger share. Then again, Virgin's the larger company.

 

[thenorthern]

Virgin Trains
East Coast
But Stagecoach too!​

How to not do pretend branding on forums.

Virgin seem to be getting a bit more focus in the news instead of Stagecoach, even though they have the larger share. Then again, Virgin's the larger company.

Many companies are not completely owned by Virgin and just use the Virgin name such as the former Virgin Radio (Now Absolute), Virgin Media, Virgin Books, Virgin Trains, Virgin Records and Virgin Atlantic.

The Virgin Brand name is just better known which is what they are doing here I think.

 

[tankmc]

Many companies are not completely owned by Virgin and just use the Virgin name such as the former Virgin Radio (Now Absolute), Virgin Media, Virgin Books, Virgin Trains, Virgin Records and Virgin Atlantic.

The Virgin Brand name is just better known which is what they are doing here I think.

Yes it very common for Virgin to hold a small stake in a company with the company using the Virgin name. Even if they pulled out, they could have the name licensed to them like all the Virgin Radio's currently operating around the world.

 

[Hellfire]

I know not everyone on this forum is a friend of Virgin or Sir Richard but it's a stonking brand and certainly has more appeal to consumers than Stagecoach who is still seen by the majority of people as a bus operator.

People like Virgin in general and they like Branson. Look at the furore from passengers when it looked as if First might get the WCML in the last franchise fiasco. There may have been little change in the trains but people like the Virgin brand. It's recognised world wide.

If I were running the new franchise I'd make sure it was heavily branded as Virgin. I don't see that causing any confusion at the Scottish end. Most people know which way they are going.

 

[455driver]

I never suggested that only Virgin Trains could deliver a wonderful performance, I said that I thought that Virgin Trains delivered improvements that I didn't think any other company would have done such as I doubt there would be tilting trains now if it wasn't for Virgin and I wouldn't be surprised if the Class 90s were still used if another operator had that franchise.

Tilting trains were part of the franchise specification so I am 100% certain that we would have had tilting trains on the West Coast Mainline, maybe not the Pendolinos though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People like Virgin in general and they like Branson. Look at the furore from passengers when it looked as if First might get the WCML in the last franchise fiasco. There may have been little change in the trains but people like the Virgin brand. It's recognised world wide.

People were worried that Virgin would take their nice new trains away with them, this was a point that Virgin failed to correct and instead rode the wave of public outrage, that is the 'problem' some of us have with them, although they dont lie they are not exactly quick to correct misconceptions!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do like the way the thread title is Virgin/Stagecoach when Stagecoach is 90% and Virgin is only 10% but it reads like Virgin are the primary shareholder, sums up the love some people on here have for Virgin perfectly!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Tilting trains were part of the franchise specification so I am 100% certain that we would have had tilting trains on the West Coast Mainline, maybe not the Pendolinos though.

I think the base franchise spec was 110mph non-tilt, with a 125mph tilt option.
Virgin bid 125mph with tilt (PUG1) and later negotiated 140mph (PUG2) with Railtrack.
I can't remember what the other bids contained (National Express, MBO?).

 

[thenorthern]

On the subject of companies running trains based on what stock they use on other franchises what would Joe Bloggs have thought if Eurostar/SCNF had won the East Coast Franchise, Joe Bloggs may well have been disappointed.

 

[12CSVT]

I have heard people say that so many times about when Virgin Trains lost the franchise in 2012 how Virgin wouldn't let anyone else use their trains.

Their trains ? The 221s belong to Voyager Leasing (who also own the XC Voyagers), and the 390s belong to Angel Trains.

 

[thenorthern]

Their trains ? The 221s belong to Voyager Leasing (who also own the XC Voyagers), and the 390s belong to Angel Trains.

What people I spoke to were implying was that Virgin Trains owned their rolling stock rather than leased it and would refuse to transfer it to any other TOC.

 

[Carlisle]

people like the Virgin brand. It's recognised world wide.

.

That still doesn't garantee success otherwise the likes of Virgin Mobile , Radio, Cola and Cosmetics etc would have eventually become major industry players, closer to or more successful than their rival brands, which didn't happen

 

[aylesbury]

Nothing wrong with the Virgin brand it is respected and its various parts provide excellent service.The airline is head and shoulders above any other with staff that make you feel welcome no matter what fare you have paid.As to the WCML I think that the staff are exemplary in the way you are welcomed and when they serve you .Doubtless when the new service maxims are bedded in on the ECML we will be able to judge wether or not DAFT were right and then and only then can judgement be made.

 

[JaJaWa]

Not sure if this has been posted already but they've released an official image of the Virgin Super Express:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure if this has been posted already but they've released an official image of the Virgin Super Express:

I like it. Quite a pleasant development of the existing livery.

Neil

 

[59CosG95]

Not sure if this has been posted already but they've released an official image of the Virgin Super Express:

Where did you find the image? VT/SCEC don't seem to have a website yet...

 

[nlogax]

Where did you find the image? VT/SCEC don't seem to have a website yet...

First saw this on a tweet from a journo at The Scotsman.

https://twitter.com/AlastairDalton/status/537998246808150017

JaJaWa - this image seems to be sitting on the Wikipedia page for Virgin Trains East Coast - it seems you put it there. Is this your image, and if so is it official?

 

[dgl]

I do think the doors look a bit out of place and affect the smoothness of the design somewhat (I do (like a lot on here I suppose) prefer plug doors) but I guess that have been talked to death on here.

 

[455driver]

I do think the doors look a bit out of place and affect the smoothness of the design somewhat (I do (like a lot on here I suppose) prefer plug doors) but I guess that have been talked to death on here.

Plug doors are maintenance heavy compared to the much simpler sliding doors!

 

[lincolnshire]

London to Glasgow Pacers.

Well at least they won,t pull the wires down and will get you there in the end if they can get passed the knackered electric train in front.

All in all they have given some good service when you think how much they get used every day and the number of times they stop and start at stations.