Virgin pull out statement

[merlodlliw]

If you have missed the excellent news,here it is, the truith is Virgin
as met overwelming pressure, 50 jobs saved at Wrexham

VT2009-037 (SK)

9 April 2009




Virgin Trains statement: Shrewsbury service proposal


Virgin Trains has today confirmed that it will not proceed with its plans to introduce a direct train service from Shrewsbury to London Euston.

Stakeholders were informed in March this year that this was an initial proposal and needed further investigation before Virgin Trains would seek approval from the Rail Regulator.

After several months detailed analysis on the proposal there is not a compelling case to justify additional trains, as evidenced by WSMR’s recent withdrawal of part of its service.

Virgin Trains was surprised at claims that we would force WSMR out of business, and this certainly was not our intention.

We hope that WSMR and its key backer - Deutsche Bahn – the state-owned German railway - will now commit long term to providing their service to Shropshire, despite recent reductions in the service.

Virgin Trains will continue to concentrate on the many parts of the country where there is clear demand for our expanded services.

Ends

 

[Proud Salopian]

Virgin Trains was surprised at claims that we would force WSMR out of business, and this certainly was not our intention.

Ha!

Long live WSMR!

 

[anthony263]

I suspect the WAG may have pulled a few strings at the rail regulator and westminster who in turn put pressure on virgin.

Glad virgin have seen sense, besides i think even if vigin did run trains to shrewsbury i am sure that after 1 trip a lot of passengers will be put off due to the terrible voyagers.

even if the journey times are longer speaking as a passenger i would travel on a mark 3 coach over a voyager anytime

 

[glynn80]

I suspect the WAG may have pulled a few strings at the rail regulator and westminster who in turn put pressure on virgin.

What is this based on??

Very much doubt this happened. Although the ORR board is appointed by the Secretary of State for Transport, the ORR does operate independently of central government.

The independence of the ORR has been established by virtue of:

• the absence of any ability of the Secretary of State for Transport to give the ORR directions or orders as to what they should or should not do.
• the absence of any right of appeal to the Secretary of State for Transport in relation to the actions of the ORR.
• the absence of the right of the Secretary of State for Transport to remove the ORR board from office, except on grounds of incapacity or misbehaviour (the same grounds as apply to judges of the High Court).

It would be quite extraordinary for government to become involved in economic decisions of companies such as Virgin in this way.

 

[merlodlliw]

I note the comments, perhaps being on the ground I might add, The Minister for Railways at the Assembley Ieuan Wyn Jones, recieved letters and was
questioned in the Assembley about the threat to W/S, Mark Isherwood a listed A.M. also asked The First Minister at his question time,Rhodri Morgan
replied looks like spolier tactics, I will instigate an inquiry, this as taken place.

One as to also remember all Local M.Ps in North East Wales & Salop,plus
all North Wales A.Ms have been bomarded with e mails and letters,
my own elected A.M Karen Sinclair(lab), listed A.Ms Janet Ryder(Plaid)
Eleanor Burnham(Lib) Mark Isherwood(Con) Wrexham A,M Lesley Griffiths(Lab)
have all demanded action on whats going on at The All Wales Franchise ATW
and its intention to give up more paths to Virgin from Chester to Wrexham
the only way Virgin could run the Shrewsbury service.Or similar from Crewe.

I know questions have been asked in high places Commons & Lords,Ian Lucas M.P for Wrexham discussed this, I am aware The Wales First Minister got his deputy to call in the All Wales Franchise operator ATWs CEO.

Politics is Politics, but the threat of killing off W/S and the huge backlash
in North East Wales against Virgin, was the final straw,Customer numbers
in the statement is their way out, we know different.

Also in Wales the London Minister of Transport does not run the railways, any input from Wales to the ORR will come from the WAG if asked, and ORR are not blind to all the antics of Virgins attempt to kill off W/S from other sources.The Sec Of State may appoint the ORR board which is a quango, but people speak to each other.


Bob

 

[gingerheid]

I'm glad to see it.

There's far better uses for Virgin stock on their vastly overcrowded network.

 

[First ScotRail]

The above reason being why they now have 3TPH to Birmingham and Manchester, 1TPH to Liverpool, Chester and Glasgow.

 

[merlodlliw]

The above reason being why they now have 3TPH to Birmingham and Manchester, 1TPH to Liverpool, Chester and Glasgow.

an outsider, what does the jargon mean, First |Scotrail


Bob

 

[route:oxford]

Perhaps the ORR suggested quietly to Virgin that with the competition at Shrewsbury they may be minded to allow W&S to call at New Street...

 

[glynn80]

I know questions have been asked in high places Commons & Lords,Ian Lucas M.P for Wrexham discussed this, I am aware The Wales First Minister got his deputy to call in the All Wales Franchise operator ATWs CEO.

Politics is Politics, but the threat of killing off W/S and the huge backlash
in North East Wales against Virgin, was the final straw,Customer numbers
in the statement is their way out, we know different.

Also in Wales the London Minister of Transport does not run the railways, any input from Wales to the ORR will come from the WAG if asked, and ORR are not blind to all the antics of Virgins attempt to kill off W/S from other sources.The Sec Of State may appoint the ORR board which is a quango, but people speak to each other.

This politics talk is all very well but it still does not amount to the WAG pressuring the ORR (which was the point I was making), which would be tantamount to defeating the whole object of the ORR in the first place.

Their statutory independence is crucial to the creation of a stable environment that attracts investment and promotes efficient delivery in which competition can flourish in the railway industry. It enables the ORR to pursue public interest objectives even where they conflict with shorter term and political objectives and provide the discipline to keep costs down.

If there was continued government intervention into the ORR's decisions, it would create a wariness amongst potential entrants into the railway industry and stifle the natural market forces.

Also with regard to powers held by the Welsh Assembly for the railways, it is not wholly true what you state. The role of government in the railways, is executed by DfT in England and Wales (in consultation with the National Assembly for Wales) and Transport Scotland acting for the Scottish Ministers for the railway in Scotland. Transport for London, the Welsh Assembly Government and Passenger Transport Executives have limited powers to specify incremental services in their areas of responsibility. Government sets the overall, long-term strategy for the industry.

So the WAG has some power over the railways in Wales but they certainly do not hold all the control. Certainly for example in signing off the Welsh Franchise the WAG is only a "joint signatory" with the Secretary of State for Transport and does not exercise full authority on the issue.

 

[First ScotRail]

an outsider, what does the jargon mean, First |Scotrail


Bob

Sorry TPH - Trains Per Hour

 

[ukrob]

I'm glad to see it.

There's far better uses for Virgin stock on their vastly overcrowded network.

Which bits would you say are over crowded? The occasional peak service?

 

[Proud Salopian]

Perhaps the ORR suggested quietly to Virgin that with the competition at Shrewsbury they may be minded to allow W&S to call at New Street...

That could well have been the case..!

 

[Daimler]

Virgin Trains was surprised at claims that we would force WSMR out of business, and this certainly was not our intention.

Ho-hum

I just hope WSMR can keep going now - they should do, whenever I've been on them to Shrewsbury they've been rreasonably full!

EDIT: Just been WSMR's website - it hasn't been updated to show the latest, but I found these:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6047483.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/08/wrexham-shropshire-trains-in-praise-of?commentpage=1

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6054991.ece

What's interesting is not just that the major press has rallied round WSMR in this way; but that they've done it via an editorial (in The Guardian) and a leading article (in The Times) - as well as a report. That shows some pretty strong support for the service!

 

[tbtc]

Strange.

First of all, I fail to see what the WAG and other Welsh bodies would have influence over a train service entirely in England (Shrewsbury to London).

Secondly, it's bad news for places like Walsall, which will lose their proposed new service to the Capital.

Thirdly, with W&S cutting back their services to Wrexham, surely that cuts the number of jobs? (funny how there's no criticism of W&S for this)

Fourthly, Virgin already run to Wrexham (a much faster route via Chester).

Lastly, with W&S being backed by the German government, I find the idea of presenting them as the "minnows" a bit strange...

Still, am sure some people in north Wales will be happy...

 

[merlodlliw]

In a strange way the demise of the bully(VT) lets W/S celebrate, " I Quote
the Wrexham Evening Leader Thursday April 10th"

All passengers travelling on the first train Wrexham to London will be invited
to a free cooked breakfast of their choice, this applies to all classes of ticket
holder on Good Friday/Sat/Easter Sunday & Easter Monday.

I might also add to couple of questions.

1.No staff at W/S have been sacked since the reduction of the setrvice out of Wrexham.

2.ATW as a pure spoiler, want to run a service Aberyswyth to Marylebone
and one from Shrewsbury to Marylebone with a bisare 158 service on Saturday from Pwllheli to Marylebone, ATW is the all Wales Franchise and does have to ask WAG first, also the key to letting VT into Wrexham or
Crewe to Shrewsbury was ATW giving up paths, it has already done this
for the 0700 Wrexham Chester , questions have been asked by Politicians
about this close partnership with VT that ATW have formed.
Again the CEO of ATW was called in to answer giving up paths(source
two A.Ms) at question time in the Assembley.

3.As for the ORR, if VT went ahead, ORR would consult with all interested parties including WAG, County Councils, Trade Unions etc etc, as they did
with W/S application, ORR is a quango, I need not say more about quangos.

4.I was under the impression as from 1st Jan 08, Welsh Railways were under the umbrella of the Deputy Minister, NW rail remain in charge of infastructure
however, I respect other more knowledagable people on this.

Anyhow I can not forget ATWs 17 page ORR objection to W/S along with VT
its my Wolves and my Brum, VT can now lick its wounds and run trains
were they are needed and as for ATW running 158s to London, who
wants to spend 6 hours on a rail bus, they never learn.

We now fully expect the 0700 VT Wrexham to London to be pulled,trains
are supposed to carry passengers, not used as spoilers.


Bob

 

[tbtc]

2.ATW as a pure spoiler, want to run a service Aberyswyth to Marylebone
and one from Shrewsbury to Marylebone with a bisare 158 service on Saturday from Pwllheli to Marylebone

A pure spoiler? So, you don't think that this proposed servce (extending the existing Aberyswyth - Birmingham services) might have given the only area of Wales without a direct rail service to London a vital link, and be timed to encouage passengers from southern England to have trips/ holidays in Wales, thus bringing in money to the region? No, of course not, it's all big conspiracy to deprive the people of Wrexham :roll:

the key to letting VT into Wrexham or Crewe to Shrewsbury was ATW giving up paths, it has already done this for the 0700 Wrexham Chester , questions have been asked by Politicians about this close partnership with VT that ATW have formed.

Call me old fashioned, by why is two TOCs having a "close partnership" now a bad thing? I'd rather have well co-ordinated services than daft needless competition.

4.I was under the impression as from 1st Jan 08, Welsh Railways were under the umbrella of the Deputy Minister, NW rail remain in charge of infastructure
however, I respect other more knowledagable people on this.

However, you've not answered the point about why politicians in Wales are getting their knickers in a twist about a proposed service from Shrewsbury to London via Walsall - it's none of their business.

as for ATW running 158s to London, who
wants to spend 6 hours on a rail bus, they never learn.

First of all, I'd hardly class a 158 as a "rail bus". A Pacer, yes, but a 158? :roll:

Secondly, since little else can run on the Aberystwyth line, what do you propose they use on this service? I'd call it an important link to the capital, myself.

We now fully expect the 0700 VT Wrexham to London to be pulled,trains
are supposed to carry passengers, not used as spoilers.

Why? It's marginal cost to Virgin (snce it'd run to/from Chester anyway), it gives the people of Wrexham a fast modern train to/from London, an surely time will tell whether it pays off or not.

I really can't understand the smug reaction to this news.

 

[The Planner]

We now fully expect the 0700 VT Wrexham to London to be pulled,trains
are supposed to carry passengers, not used as spoilers.

Bob

Dont get your hopes up, thats a full path they have and they dont need to give it up at all if they dont want to. WSMR have stopped running a few services, but have they given up those paths ?? of course not....

 

[87015]

I really can't understand the smug reaction to this news.

The you can't have experienced much of the Virgin Trains debacle over the last decade or so. I, like many others, hate them.

And before I'm called a "bitter trainspotter" again, its not because they replaced the 87s - got three extra years of them due, among other things, Virgins incompetence.

 

[merlodlliw]

Dont get your hopes up, thats a full path they have and they dont need to give it up at all if they dont want to. WSMR have stopped running a few services, but have they given up those paths ?? of course not....

Note all W/S lines to Shrewsbury are double & W/S intend to reuse.


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Call me old fashioned, by why is two TOCs having a "close partnership" now a bad thing? I'd rather have well co-ordinated services than daft needless competition.
Fine if its to benefit the passenger,in the instance it was to kill
off W/S.



However, you've not answered the point about why politicians in Wales are getting their knickers in a twist about a proposed service from Shrewsbury to London via Walsall - it's none of their business.
Sorry it is, ATW is the All Wales Franchise, subsidised by WAG.



First of all, I'd hardly class a 158 as a "rail bus". A Pacer, yes, but a 158? :roll:
So would I spend 6 hours in a 158, er no,

Secondly, since little else can run on the Aberystwyth line, what do you propose they use on this service? I'd call it an important link to the capital, myself.
A service to Holyhead or Cardiff might ease congestion, but hey ATW have no competition on these routes.




I really can't understand the smug reaction to this news.[/QUOTE]
50 people employed by W/S can understand the reaction, its called
job security.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

Sorry it is, ATW is the All Wales Franchise, subsidised by WAG

By why would the WAG be involved in the rights and wrongs of Virgin Trains running between London, Walsall and Shrewsbury? The train wouldn't cross the border, so it's none of their business

I can see them being interested if it was going to go to Wrexham, but the service mentioned in your press release was only intended to/ from Shrewsbury.

Typical politicians - meddling in things that have nothing to do with them...

So would I spend 6 hours in a 158, er no

How else would you intend running a direct link from Aberystwyth to the capital then (given the line constraints)? Or is Wrexham the only place in Wales allowed a "new" service to London?

A service to Holyhead or Cardiff might ease congestion, but hey ATW have no competition on these routes

There's already more than enough trains from Cardiff to Holyhead, thanks to more interfering WAG politicians (wasting Welsh taxpayers money so they can enjoy a First Class service). A service from Aberystwyth to London would make much more commercial sense.

 

[merlodlliw]

By why would the WAG be involved in the rights and wrongs of Virgin Trains running between London, Walsall and Shrewsbury? The train wouldn't cross the border, so it's none of their business

The information also put out was the trains could end up in Wrexham then to/from Chester, if that was the route by permission of ATW.giving up paths

Anyhow W/S is a Wrexham Employer, nothing wrong with politicians looking
after their own patch, this is common practice.

One thing, when the 158 fails & 158s do fail, halfway to London from Shrewsbury, what happens to the failed units, who rescues them, the
AA or RAC. Wales & Borders tried this 8 years ago to Waterloo with 158s ,and we all know what happened, no passengers & Failure after failure

Bob

 

[The Planner]

The Cambrian route from Aber to Brum is now performing amazingly well, it has PPM up in the 90s from the 50s and 60s it used to languish in.

Note all W/S lines to Shrewsbury are double & W/S intend to reuse

Apart from Coventry to Leamington, which has single line. They intend to use them, but if business doesnt pick up and the paths are un-used for long enough, they can be forced to give them up.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Cambrian route from Aber to Brum is now performing amazingly well, it has PPM up in the 90s from the 50s and 60s it used to languish in.

I dont think the local rail association would totally agree with that.



Apart from Coventry to Leamington, which has single line. They intend to use them, but if business doesnt pick up and the paths are un-used for long enough, they can be forced to give them up.

Agree with unused paths.

Bob

 

[yorkie]

Which bits would you say are over crowded? The occasional peak service?

Far from it - they're all empty due to the high price!

Shoulder peak services can be overcrowded, and services on Sundays/Fridays on popular routes.

 

[tbtc]

One thing, when the 158 fails & 158s do fail, halfway to London from Shrewsbury, what happens to the failed units, who rescues them, the
AA or RAC. Wales & Borders tried this 8 years ago to Waterloo with 158s ,and we all know what happened, no passengers & Failure after failure

I'm a bit confused by your question.

The 158s currently run from Aberystwyth to Birmingham International every couple of hours. The proposal is to extend a couple of them each day to/from London. Presumably they already have contingency plans in case a unit fails in the West Midlands...

The old Wales & West Alphaline service to Waterloo was via a really odd route (Shrewsbury to London via Salsbury :roll, true. However, this proposal looks like a much more sensible service, with timings to suit tourists going to western Wales (so should be a net contributor to the Welsh economy).

 

[glynn80]

The information also put out was the trains could end up in Wrexham then to/from Chester, if that was the route by permission of ATW.giving up paths

Anyhow W/S is a Wrexham Employer, nothing wrong with politicians looking
after their own patch, this is common practice.

I think you are deluded in the power you think the WAG holds. They are not omnipotent in their control over Welsh railways and those adjacent to it. They would have no say in Virgin's bid to the ORR for paths to Shrewsbury, when those trains start running to Wrexham and into Wales that is when they get a voice and even then that voice has to be exercised and shared through the DfT.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Did anyone else laugh at the title of the thread? Or is it my sick mind?

 

[voyagerdude220]

I didn't until you made me look at it again! :roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

Did anyone else laugh at the title of the thread? Or is it my sick mind?

Well you all took your time, not a word from anyone about the free breakfasts
after the night before.

"Did you hear the one about the CEO of ATW & the head of rail performance at WAG" now that was a good bedtime story.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm a bit confused by your question.

The 158s currently run from Aberystwyth to Birmingham International every couple of hours. The proposal is to extend a couple of them each day to/from London. Presumably they already have contingency plans in case a unit fails in the West Midlands...

The old Wales & West Alphaline service to Waterloo was via a really odd route (Shrewsbury to London via Salsbury :roll, true. However, this proposal looks like a much more sensible service, with timings to suit tourists going to western Wales (so should be a net contributor to the Welsh economy).

But with 158s, now if they intended using real trains, Oh forgot Gerald
is ATWs only real train, dont think the Minister will hand out another
£7,600 a day to run another Gerald after its dismal performance,
Anyhow whats this aboutWest Wales?

Bob