Virgin pull out statement

[Broken Viking]

Did anyone else laugh at the title of the thread? Or is it my sick mind?

Ye aren't the only one mate...It made me chuckle when I saw it "come up" :roll:

Sign on back of bus: Please let buses pull out!
Added in marker pen: ...And help to reduce the minibus population! :razz:

 

[TDK]

I can see them being interested if it was going to go to Wrexham, but the service mentioned in your press release was only intended to/ from Shrewsbury.

If you looked at the VT proposed timetable they were running through to Wrexham via Gobowen with ATW giving them the paths. ATW are aledgedly "in league" with VT for whatever reasons. Looking at it logically and this is just a personal opinion, ATW are in for a few more shillings if WSMR fold due to the ticket cut I believe! Work it out for yourselves. WSMR not permitted to stop and pick up at Wolves, New Street and Birmingham International however ATW are after giving VT the 07.00 path from Wrexham to Chester! The mind boggles as they say

 

[The Planner]

But with 158s, now if they intended using real trains, Oh forgot Gerald is ATWs only real train, dont think the Minister will hand out another £7,600 a day to run another Gerald after its dismal performance, Anyhow whats this aboutWest Wales?

Bob

If ATW used a "real" train, then it would be able to attain line speed and not be restricted due to its formation. ATW have a 2 year contract to run Gerald, by the time it comes to the second contract I seriously expect the service to be dead in the water unless the WAG are happy to chuck money at it.

 

[merlodlliw]

If ATW used a "real" train, then it would be able to attain line speed and not be restricted due to its formation. ATW have a 2 year contract to run Gerald, by the time it comes to the second contract I seriously expect the service to be dead in the water unless the WAG are happy to chuck money at it.

Or WAG could and should have given the contract to W/S who I am told
offered more trains for the same money, "Wag Express Gerald" at £7,600
tax payer subsidy a day, is used as a semi fast Holyhead to Crewe where
it empties, I am sure this train can not carry on with one or two 1st
class passengers a day, sometimes none.

Would not be surprised to see it re timed and replace a 175 routed via Wrexham, as occurs on some Saturdays when it needs repair, Mark Isherwood local A.M. asked The Minister for numbers travelling to Cardiff, ATW were unable to give this detail to the Minister to pass on.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

by the time it comes to the second contract I seriously expect the service to be dead in the water unless the WAG are happy to chuck money at it

The whole thing is another expensive political farce. The fact that it doesn't stop at some larger English station is just bizarre.

 

[The Planner]

Or WAG could and should have given the contract to W/S who I am told offered more trains for the same money

They didnt bid for the service at all, the other bidder was the same company that runs Grand Central, and they wanted to run 37s down the HoW line as part of it !! ATW bid for it because they had to.

Would not be surprised to see it re timed and replace a 175 routed via Wrexham, as occurs on some Saturdays when it needs repair, Mark Isherwood local A.M. asked The Minister for numbers travelling to Cardiff, ATW were unable to give this detail to the Minister to pass on.

Gerald is a Monday to Friday service i thought, not a weekend one. It wont ever run as a 175 as they dont have catering facilities on them. If they retro-fit a 175 with a proper kitchen and "premier class" then Id imagine one would be used as it's likely to get a better path. Even then it doesnt solve the Saltney Jn to Wrexham conundrum on the single as its at capacity.

 

[merlodlliw]

They didnt bid for the service at all, the other bidder was the same company that runs Grand Central, and they wanted to run 37s down the HoW line as part of it !! ATW bid for it because they had to.

Sorry Wrong, three bids were lodged, W/S, Grand central & ATW.

Grand Central was a non starter with its bid.


As for Gerald, it replaced the Saturday 175 ex Holyhead 0425, when it was taken to Canton for repairs to its kitchen car(source Nth Wales Rail Web,Wrexham pics) and travelled through Wrexham and returned as the
1720 Cardiff/Holyhead in place of 175 again via Wrexham after repairs.

 

[The Planner]

The only two bidders that came through Network Rail looking for paths were Grand Central and ATW, WSMR didnt.

 

[merlodlliw]

The only two bidders that came through Network Rail looking for paths were Grand Central and ATW, WSMR didnt.

Strange you mention that, As the Minister announced he had recieved
three letters of intention to run the Wag Express and Andy Hamilton told a meeting of SCURA W/S had put a bid surgesting to run 4 trains with the middle two running as far as Wrexham for a similar sum of funding.

Anyhow thats all I know.


Bob

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I'm sorry. Having read through this thread, I feel it is my duty to wade in and have my say.

Whether or not staff at Wrexham & Shropshire now feel safer in their jobs, we have to look at the people who actually suffer - the passengers. Now it may just be me, but if someone proposed a new service to my local station, I would be delighted. I would also be disappointed if they then pulled out of said plan. Extra services is what every passneger wants.

Why are you so violently opposed to Virgin running services to Wrexham? Wrexham & Shropshire have proved that they cannot do it by cutting services - so why not let Virgin run a couple and give the passengers back some of that choice they have lost? It is already much quicker to get a local from Wrexham and change at Chester to get to London via Virgin than it is on Wrexham & Shropshire so would extending the odd service really make that big a difference overall? I can tell you this, if I were to get a decent price, I would take the quicker option - as I am sure many passengers from Wrexham already do.

I also want to know why you are so opposed to West Wales services continuing to London. And if I had to spend 6 hours on a train, I could think of much worse places to be than a 158 my friend. I'm sure many will agree with me on that one.

A lot has been said about the WAG express, but let's put it this way: There is now a service when before there wasn't. People, despite complaining, would rather have a service than not have one at all.

Which brings me back nicely to the Wrexham debate. Passengers would rather have the proposed extra services than not have them. I too do not understand your smug reaction to the news. Especially when you appear to oppose any improvement to the lives of the fare paying passenger. I can't help but feel you are a bit of an aspirationalist. The big boys have been knocked back by the small local company and that seems to please you. We all like an underdog, but this is taking things too far. If you want to put a few noses out of joint then fine, but the service to the passenger cannot be compromised.

Fifty people may well be celebrating in Wrexham, but 100,000 others will not.

 

[TDK]

I'm sorry. Having read through this thread, I feel it is my duty to wade in and have my say.

Whether or not staff at Wrexham & Shropshire now feel safer in their jobs, we have to look at the people who actually suffer - the passengers. Now it may just be me, but if someone proposed a new service to my local station, I would be delighted. I would also be disappointed if they then pulled out of said plan. Extra services is what every passneger wants.

Why are you so violently opposed to Virgin running services to Wrexham? Wrexham & Shropshire have proved that they cannot do it by cutting services - so why not let Virgin run a couple and give the passengers back some of that choice they have lost? It is already much quicker to get a local from Wrexham and change at Chester to get to London via Virgin than it is on Wrexham & Shropshire so would extending the odd service really make that big a difference overall? I can tell you this, if I were to get a decent price, I would take the quicker option - as I am sure many passengers from Wrexham already do.

I also want to know why you are so opposed to West Wales services continuing to London. And if I had to spend 6 hours on a train, I could think of much worse places to be than a 158 my friend. I'm sure many will agree with me on that one.

A lot has been said about the WAG express, but let's put it this way: There is now a service when before there wasn't. People, despite complaining, would rather have a service than not have one at all.

Which brings me back nicely to the Wrexham debate. Passengers would rather have the proposed extra services than not have them. I too do not understand your smug reaction to the news. Especially when you appear to oppose any improvement to the lives of the fare paying passenger. I can't help but feel you are a bit of an aspirationalist. The big boys have been knocked back by the small local company and that seems to please you. We all like an underdog, but this is taking things too far. If you want to put a few noses out of joint then fine, but the service to the passenger cannot be compromised.

Fifty people may well be celebrating in Wrexham, but 100,000 others will not.

Where do you get the 100,000 people from? If WSMR had to cut an unpopular train to survive what would have been the effect have been if VT had their way? All I can see it would have been the end of WSMR so therefore 4 trains a day down to 2 and the 2 that VT would have run would not had the same customer service as WSMR, I think you waded in and got a bootfull of water, as for 158's, the local stations, Ruabon, Chirk, Gobowen etc you get people waiting for the WSMR service to go to Shrewsbury to avoid travelling in an ATW 158,the ATW 158's are terrible, they refurbed them by just putting a strip of carpet through the middle,when you sit down you need to prise your feet off the carpet unseen below the seats to alight, OK maybe a little exageration. The WAG express is as you say a "WAG" express for the WAG to get to Cardiff, they only had this idea after travelling on the WSMR service before the launch, before that they were happy or maybe not with their overcrowded 175.

A Question young man! Have you travelled on WSMR yet?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Strange you mention that, As the Minister announced he had recieved
three letters of intention to run the Wag Express and Andy Hamilton told a meeting of SCURA W/S had put a bid surgesting to run 4 trains with the middle two running as far as Wrexham for a similar sum of funding.

Anyhow thats all I know.


Bob

ATW were really the only option logistically having depots in Chester, Crewe, Llandudno and Cardiff. If WSMR had taken up the offer I imagine the running costs would have been huge as they only have a Wrexham depot with train crews having to travel taxi etc.

 

[glynn80]

Where do you get the 100,000 people from? If WSMR had to cut an unpopular train to survive what would have been the effect have been if VT had their way? All I can see it would have been the end of WSMR so therefore 4 trains a day down to 2 and the 2 that VT would have run would not had the same customer service as WSMR, I think you waded in and got a bootfull of water, as for 158's, the local stations, Ruabon, Chirk, Gobowen etc you get people waiting for the WSMR service to go to Shrewsbury to avoid travelling in an ATW 158,the ATW 158's are terrible, they refurbed them by just putting a strip of carpet through the middle,when you sit down you need to prise your feet off the carpet unseen below the seats to alight, OK maybe a little exageration. The WAG express is as you say a "WAG" express for the WAG to get to Cardiff, they only had this idea after travelling on the WSMR service before the launch, before that they were happy or maybe not with their overcrowded 175.

A Question young man! Have you travelled on WSMR yet?

If WSMR's business model is one that assumes that they are to never have competition, then it seems a pretty weak one. If they are not strong enough to survive the lost ORCATS revenue from Virgin also running services from Shrewsbury (which are pretty obviously going to be faster) then that is their problem as that's just business.

WSMR have worked hard on customer service and they should be commended on that. Some passengers from these stations in Shropshire may have been a little worried that if Virgin came in and muscled WSMR out, then that high level service would have been lost. But that really just shows that the majority of people will take speed over comfort. I am not convinced that the level of service would have been reduced, Virgin originally bidded for two paths, but if WSMR folded they would have many more options for extra services.

However if what TDK states is true that passengers in Shropshire really do wait for WSMR's service over ATW's then perhaps those passengers do value customer service and comfort and if that is the case then WSMR had nothing to worry about, somehow I doubt this, as otherwise WSMR would not have been so worried about competition on their route, as passengers would have been loyal to them providing the higher quality of service over Virgin.

 

[tbtc]

If WSMR's business model is one that assumes that they are to never have competition, then it seems a pretty weak one

I can't think of any other business which doesn't expect any competition.

If any Open Access company shows a route can be profitable, then of course the existing TOCs are going to sniff after that market (like GNER diverting their Hull service via Selby, when Hull Trains started service).

As for the much used customer care argument - it's much easier to provide that kind of personal touch when you're a small operation (especially one providing a daytime service). I get a much more personal service in my local shops than I would in a Superstore.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where do you get the 100,000 people from?

Presumably a reference to the population of Shrewsbury/ Shropshire who are missing out on modern faster trains?

(don't mean to speak for whoshotjimmi)

the local stations, Ruabon, Chirk, Gobowen etc you get people waiting for the WSMR service to go to Shrewsbury to avoid travelling in an ATW 158

If the people are happy to do this, then I can't see why WSMR are so paranoid about competition...

the ATW 158's are terrible, they refurbed them by just putting a strip of carpet through the middle,when you sit down you need to prise your feet off the carpet unseen below the seats to alight,

What else should ATW use to link Aberystwyth with the capital, since 158s are all that can be used on the line?

Or does Aberystwyth not deserve a service to London?

 

[merlodlliw]

Since when as Aberystwyth been in West Wales, that as been mentioned
several times, it is in Mid Wales, and ATW want to run 158s from Mid Wales
Aber to London with 158s.April 1st comes to mind.

Also steam loco hauled trains run on the Cambrian Lines as well as 158s.

Also what's this about W/S running a daytime service, is the 2000 hrs from Marylebone
a daytime service, also the 0512 ex Wrexham is early morning.


Bob

 

[The Planner]

There is nothing April 1st about it like I said in the other thread. If it wasnt for the moderation of competition issue, short of getting route clearance south of Aynho Jn and sorting out some minor gauging issues, ATW have a really good shout of getting the Marylebone service going.

 

[tbtc]

Since when as Aberystwyth been in West Wales, that as been mentioned several times, it is in Mid Wales

Eh?

It looks like it's on the west coast on my map...

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Since when as Aberystwyth been in West Wales, that as been mentioned
several times, it is in Mid Wales,

I don't need a map to know that it is on the West Coast. And I can only imagine it has been there a long time! Though it is about halfway down the coast.

TBTC is right. My 100,000 figure comes from the basic population base that the proposed trains would serve.

TDK - I am not suggesting that WSMR is a bad company. I have heard many glorious things of them, but it is obvious they are unable to capture more market share due to the competition of connecting services. Virgin running these paths would enhance the service available to the local poulation rather than ruin it as it would give those who already connect a better link as well as providing more choice for everyone else.

 

[merlodlliw]

Eh?

It looks like it's on the west coast on my map...

OK perhaps I am being a bit too area minded, but anyone living in Aber
will tell you that is mid West Wales,

So OK South West Wales have FGW & North West Wales as Virgin,both
with London services, and yes Aber is on the Mid West Coast of Wales,
that's where I was coming from.

 

[Polarbear]

For me, the issue isn't about competition as such, it was about how fair that competition would have been.

Virgin pretty much have exclusive rights over running fast services to Euston, both by reason of the moderation of competition rules and that to run at 125mph & maximise paths, trains have to be tilt enabled & 125mph capable. The same rules are also used to exclude WMSR from Wolverhampton - London traffic & all other points in the West Midlands, other than Tame Bridge.

WMSR have accepted these rules and have established their open access service. In view of the various clauses mentioned above, they have to have slower trains, few pickups in the lucrative West Midlands area & have Marylebone as their terminus.

For Virgin to then come along & suggest that their proposed services are "fair" competition is, (to me at any rate), somewhat wide of the mark. How can it be fair when you tie one hand of your competitor behind their back before you come out fighting?

 

[ukrob]

For Virgin to then come along & suggest that their proposed services are "fair" competition is, (to me at any rate), somewhat wide of the mark. How can it be fair when you tie one hand of your competitor behind their back before you come out fighting?

Virgin did no such thing. In fact it was it not Virgin who asked for MoC to be rmeoved from the WCML but the DfT said no?