Virgin Peak time ghost trains

[hs2critic]

Apologies if posted elsewhere, but I can't see an obvious thread, and this is a question about the policy itself, rather than ticketing rules.

I have fond memories of mum dragging us to get to Rugby station for the first "cheap" train of the day, and having us with her meant she could use her railcard to get us to London for the day. That was always around 9:45.

The first off peak from Coventry to Euston is now the 10:31, and this is usually pretty busy, as are the last afternoon and first evening off peaks leaving Euston.

My understanding from people I know who commute regularly is that there are perhaps 2-3 trains each morning that are full, but once you move away from this (ie arrive at Euston after 8:30 or before 8), they start to get pretty empty.

The last time I went to London was a couple of weeks ago, the 8:51 iirc from Coventry, and I was genuinely surprised to find it was nearly full.

I have also taken the 10:11 to Rugby, and as this is the last peak of the morning, it was quite literally a ghost train, with no more than 10% of seats occupied.

So I'd just love to find an explanation for this.

Of course, better to have £70 one way from a few people than £43 return from more than a few, but whenever I've looked at advance tickets - even 2 months ahead, there is very little discounting here below the open rate, apart from the ones on the very fringes of the peak definition.

Clearly, the discounts aren't enough to stop many of these peak services being ghost trains - and I'm talking about STD here, First is another topic I've seen already covered!

 

[dk1]

On Friday 21st June I took the 17.07 Euston-Stafford. Train was late boarding & by the look of the crowds heading for the 16.57 GLC & 17.00 MAN I thought it was going to be a scrum. Not so. Now bearing in mind it was an 11-car there where vacant tables on departure. I was expecting it to be like Liverpool St departures at this time that are always so busy.

I then boarded the 18.33 Ex-Euston from Stafford to Crewe & was again amazed that it was lightly loaded.

Now I know those in charge are far better qualified to make decisions than me but the overcrowding that suddenly occurs after 18.45 could at least be eased somewhat by filling some of the available capacity earlier.

 

[calc7]

On Friday 21st June I took the 17.07 Euston-Stafford. Train was late boarding & by the look of the crowds heading for the 16.57 GLC & 17.00 MAN I thought it was going to be a scrum. Not so. Now bearing in mind it was an 11-car there where vacant tables on departure. I was expecting it to be like Liverpool St departures at this time that are always so busy.

I then boarded the 18.33 Ex-Euston from Stafford to Crewe & was again amazed that it was lightly loaded.

Now I know those in charge are far better qualified to make decisions than me but the overcrowding that suddenly occurs after 18.45 could at least be eased somewhat by filling some of the available capacity earlier.

Typically quieter on Fridays

 

[yorkie]

Apart from some genuinely 'peak' times, many of Virgin's 'peak' services are actually very lightly loaded, as you have to spend a fortune to travel on them.

That said, a lot of destinations Off Peak tickets are valid on trains that may be considered 'peak', including most Railcard discounted Off Peak tickets, but the exceptions are not well publicised and a lot of people probably think "oh that's a peak train, I can't travel on it", this is also not helped by a small number of obnoxious guards who incorrectly excess people on valid tickets! (I hasten to add, they are a small minority, but nothing ever seems to get done about them! It's the same with EC, the worst, infamous, culprit on EC is still up to his usual tricks! And those of you who know who he is, yes REALLY! Not enough people complain when they are incorrectly charged, only a small number seem to bother!)

Virgin's poor peak loadings are so bad that they're having to spend thousands of pounds (shareholders: don't worry! taxpayers are footing the bill!) to employ people to introduce super duper off peak tickets and mess about with the restriction codes, in order to even out the demand. But they'll probably never totally succeed because of Virgin's pricing policy. So far they've had the brilliant (!) idea of making these super duper off peak tickets not valid at certain times at weekends!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I've used the 6:10 Milton Keynes-Liverpool service a number of times, there's never more than 10 in first and around 30 in standard on arrival into Liverpool. It's at least a 9 coach Pendolino

 

[hs2critic]

gordonthemoron - I've used the 6:10 Milton Keynes-Liverpool service a number of times, there's never more than 10 in first and around 30 in standard on arrival into Liverpool. It's at least a 9 coach Pendolino

As in 06:10 or do you mean 18:10. Any reference I'm making to peak is with direction of travel, ie when these things SHOULD be full, as they are in any other public transport system I've encountered anywhere else in the world.

Now I know those in charge are far better qualified to make decisions than me

Well that is what you would think. My understanding is that other major intercity TOCs are busy throughout the peak period - or at least most of it, including First GW and EC. Yet, Virgin are painted out as the angels here and First the demons!

Now I'm sorry, but there is nothing angelic about moving so much air around. Those "evil" low cost airlines have always been pretty good at using yield management to balance their loads around the 70% mark - so which is the TOC which also has an airline boss at the top of the pile?

The whole thing just makes no sense to me. Optimising yield by charging more I can understand, but not operating such empty trains, and not when the franchising system ALLOWS you to have both walk up fares AND yield managed advance purchase tickets.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Apologies if posted elsewhere, but I can't see an obvious thread, and this is a question about the policy itself, rather than ticketing rules.

I have fond memories of mum dragging us to get to Rugby station for the first "cheap" train of the day, and having us with her meant she could use her railcard to get us to London for the day. That was always around 9:45.

The first off peak from Coventry to Euston is now the 10:31, and this is usually pretty busy, as are the last afternoon and first evening off peaks leaving Euston.

My understanding from people I know who commute regularly is that there are perhaps 2-3 trains each morning that are full, but once you move away from this (ie arrive at Euston after 8:30 or before 8), they start to get pretty empty.

The last time I went to London was a couple of weeks ago, the 8:51 iirc from Coventry, and I was genuinely surprised to find it was nearly full.

I have also taken the 10:11 to Rugby, and as this is the last peak of the morning, it was quite literally a ghost train, with no more than 10% of seats occupied.

So I'd just love to find an explanation for this.

Of course, better to have £70 one way from a few people than £43 return from more than a few, but whenever I've looked at advance tickets - even 2 months ahead, there is very little discounting here below the open rate, apart from the ones on the very fringes of the peak definition.

Clearly, the discounts aren't enough to stop many of these peak services being ghost trains - and I'm talking about STD here, First is another topic I've seen already covered!

You mean it was a long dead train returning from beyond the grave?

Call me pedantic but incorrect usage of the words "quite literally" annoys me so much that when I hear them I quite literally explode.

 

[Aldaniti]

The company I work for used to spend tens of thousands of pounds a year with Virgin travelling to London for meetings. I put a stop to it about twelve months ago because of the ridiculous peak time fares. Most of us now drive to a Midlands destination and the company has saved thousands. I'm sure others have done the same. In BR days, Euston would be rammed on a Friday and it would be hard to find a seat anywhere around the times quoted.

 

[gordonthemoron]

As in 06:10 or do you mean 18:10. Any reference I'm making to peak is with direction of travel, ie when these things SHOULD be full, as they are in any other public transport system I've encountered anywhere else in the world.

06:10 as opposed to 18:10, if I'd meant 18:10 I'd have put it as that or 6:10pm, without am or pm it's 24 hour clock. Whilst the flow is against the mainflow in the peak, the fares charged are still peak time fares. If they charged off peak ticket prices, I'm sure the train would be fuller

 

[Hellfire]

I regularly travel with VT Preston-Euston, out on the 0656 (0428 from Glasgow) and back on the 1630 to Preston which then runs non-stop to Glasgow.

The morning down service inevitably arrives more than half empty at Preston but is usually pretty full on departure from Warrington.

The up service is never completely full from Euston, particularly if it is an 11 car set and empties out at Preston, the first stop. There is also a 1633 Euston Preston which stops a few times but I've never been on that.

My observations overall are that the NW England to Euston stretches are pretty well used, particularly off-peak services, but there is a lot of fresh air travelling between Preston and Glasgow although I don't know what happens at stations in England north of Preston.

All this relates to Standard, I've never been able to justify the luxury of First.

 

[yorkie]

06:10 as opposed to 18:10, if I'd meant 18:10 I'd have put it as that or 6:10pm, without am or pm it's 24 hour clock. Whilst the flow is against the mainflow in the peak, the fares charged are still peak time fares. If they charged off peak ticket prices, I'm sure the train would be fuller

For a Milton Keynes Central (MKC) - Liverpool ticket holder, 0610 would not be valid on an Off Peak Return (SVR), but 1810 - if such a train existed - would be valid on an SVR. That is, as you say, despite there being no actual peak flow heading North in the morning. It's simply a moneymaking exercise.

This is because, by law, the Regulated fare (usually SVR) must be valid at all times from 1030 (it can, of course, be valid a lot earlier than that, or indeed at any time), with the exception of certain stations in the London area such as Watford Junction, where evening peak restrictions can additionally apply. But evening peak restrictions on the Regulated SVR cannot apply from Milton Keynes.

Apparently Virgin did enforce an illegal restriction from MKC for a while. If you were affected by this, ensure you get your money back, and if you do not, contact the DfT, Passenger Focus and ATOC, and let us know how you get on!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You mean it was a long dead train returning from beyond the grave?

Call me pedantic but incorrect usage of the words "quite literally" annoys me so much that when I hear them I quite literally explode.

The term "ghost train" is a meaningless term. It's not defined, so it ends up being used for any purpose the author deems fit, there's no way to know what someone means when they say "ghost train" until they have explained it.

There are more terms which are also undefined and their meaning can vary massively, so are meaningless by themselves, such as "open return" (which used to be a ticket type, but since 2008 no longer is, and it often takes on different meanings these days!)

 

[DarloRich]

I've used the 6:10 Milton Keynes-Liverpool service a number of times, there's never more than 10 in first and around 30 in standard on arrival into Liverpool. It's at least a 9 coach Pendolino

In fairness you are going against the flow at that time!

Try any of the following Virgin departures from MK to Euston for a really full Virgin train! Vestibule squatting is the way of the future!

0623
0638
0652
0659
0714 (my own personal favourite!)
0737
0819

It is easier to set of a touch earlier and get the LM trains that start from MK or Bletchley – at least you can get a seat, especially if you choose the all pots stopper!

 

[island]

As we're on the subject:

Alan, Barry, Charlie, Daniel, Edgar, Frank, George, Hywel, Ian, John, Kenneth, and Louis pitch up at Euston station at 0800 wanting to go to Milton Keynes Central.

1. Alan has an off-peak day return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes C route LDN MIDLAND ONLY (KM). He gets to leave on the 0824 train.
2. Barry has an off-peak day return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes C route ANY PERMITTED (DM). He has to wait until 0920, although he does get to use a Pendo.
3. Charlie also has an off-peak return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes C, but his is VIRGIN TRNS ONLY (DM). He also gets going at 0920 but has paid less than Barry.
4. Daniel has an off-peak return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes C, ANY PERMITTED (DM). He joins Barry and Charlie on the 0920.
5. Edgar isn't on that train though. He has an off-peak return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes C route VIRGIN TRNS ONLY (LY). He gets going at 0943.
6. Frank, meanwhile, came up from MKC yesterday and is using the return half of an off-peak return Milton Keynes C to London Terminals route ANY PERMITTED (LW). He can have his pick of trains and could in fact have got the 0527 LIV service.
7. George is on the return half of a super off-peak return from Milton Keynes C to Peterborough route +ANY PERMITTED. He's also able to pick his train because he's connecting within the Network area from a journey from outside the area.
8. Hywel has a 1-6 annual Travelcard and is on the outbound half of a Boundary Zone 6 to Milton Keynes C off-peak return ticket (4A). He gets into an argument with the Virgin gateline for the 0920 train as to whether the train will have gotten out of zone 6 before 0930, which is when his ticket becomes valid. [For what it's worth, I would say it is valid because the train is timed to pass Harrow & Wealdstone at 0929 and a half, which is zone 5.]
9. Ian also has an annual 1-6 and is on the outbound half of a Boundary Zone 6 to Milton Keynes C off-peak day return (B4). He got on the 0843 Virgin service after a little less argument.
10. John has an off-peak return from London Terminals to Manchester Stns (9I). He can't leave until the 0943 train and meets Edgar for a plastic Virgin panini.
11. Kenneth has the return half of a Lancaster to London Terminals off-peak return (3A). He can leave on the 0910 service to Holyhead (Caergybi).
12. And spare a thought for poor Louis. He has a London Terminals to Lancaster off-peak return (5F) and goes up with Kenneth since his ticket is valid from 0905, but is refused access to the train when he says he's going to MKC because break of journey is barred on his ticket.

So that's twelve people with twelve off-peak tickets, eleven of which become valid on seven different trains and one not valid at all for the journey desired. And if that's not simple enough, what happens later on when Mike, Nat, Oscar, Peter, Quentin, Ryan, Steve, Terry, Ultan, Victor, Warren, and Xavier show up at EUS at 1639 with the above tickets...?

 

[Hellfire]

Am now on the 1630 Euston to Glasgow. Standard barely half full and that's despite the 1633 Euston-Preston being cancelled so you might have expected a heavier loading.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I was on the 1633 a few weeks ago from Stafford. It was an 11 car set and there may have been 10 people in my coach when it left there. By Wigan I was the only one left. At Preston I would say few more than 50 alighted.

 

[Deerfold]

As we're on the subject:

Alan, Barry, Charlie, Daniel, Edgar, Frank, George, Hywel, Ian, John, Kenneth, and Louis pitch up at Euston station at 0800 wanting to go to Milton Keynes Central.

So that's twelve people with twelve off-peak tickets, eleven of which become valid on seven different trains and one not valid at all for the journey desired. And if that's not simple enough, what happens later on when Mike, Nat, Oscar, Peter, Quentin, Ryan, Steve, Terry, Ultan, Victor, Warren, and Xavier show up at EUS at 1639 with the above tickets...?

And the times some of them become valid change if they've used certain kinds of railcards...

 

[WatcherZero]

According to todays figures in the morning peak into London 1% of passengers on Virgin trains are standing, 1% into Birmingham, 0% into Manchester.

In the evening peak 3% into Birmingham, 1% into London, 8% into Manchester

Thats averaged out total seats divided by total passengers for all services combined in the 3 hour morning and evening peaks.

 

[yorksrob]

The company I work for used to spend tens of thousands of pounds a year with Virgin travelling to London for meetings. I put a stop to it about twelve months ago because of the ridiculous peak time fares. Most of us now drive to a Midlands destination and the company has saved thousands. I'm sure others have done the same. In BR days, Euston would be rammed on a Friday and it would be hard to find a seat anywhere around the times quoted.

A very prescient post that any TOC upper management (if they are reading) should take note of.

 

[dk1]

Typically quieter on Fridays

Really!! Friday mornings are for long distance travel & commuters but definitely not Friday afternoons in my 28yr experience

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Something wrong when the DfT pays for train lengthening and an extra FO peak service after trains runs with space 1500 - 1900 due to "commercial" policy ...

Wont say any more than that .....

 

[rebmcr]

And the times some of them become valid change if they've used certain kinds of railcards...

Wow, and I thought my near-exclusive use of Y—P Advances was complicated. It's really simple in comparison to that!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I regularly travel with VT Preston-Euston, out on the 0656 (0428 from Glasgow) and back on the 1630 to Preston which then runs non-stop to Glasgow.

The morning down service inevitably arrives more than half empty at Preston but is usually pretty full on departure from Warrington.

The up service is never completely full from Euston, particularly if it is an 11 car set and empties out at Preston, the first stop. There is also a 1633 Euston Preston which stops a few times but I've never been on that.....

That really confused me for a minute, you had me thinking lots of people travel from Warrington to Wigan. On the railway "Up" is towards London and "down" is away from London as a general rule. Perhaps "southbound" and "northbound" would have been better terms to use.

 

[Hellfire]

You are quite right.

Funny, when I lived n Cornwall I always thought of London as "up"

When I moved to the North West London suddenly seemed "down" for some reason. Probably because all my neighbours always talk about going down to London.

Not proper railway terminology though. Sits on naughty chair

 

[neilmc]

My company too put a stop to the full-fare Virgin rip-off; if you want to go to London now you can't book an open return, at least one leg has to be pre-booked on an advance or off-peak. I find that the return 18:57 to Manchester on Thurs/Fri is quite acceptable since it's declassified and going down I always try to travel the previous day and stay with friends or family.

 

[hs2critic]

So that's twelve people with twelve off-peak tickets, eleven of which become valid on seven different trains and one not valid at all for the journey desired. And if that's not simple enough, what happens later on when Mike, Nat, Oscar, Peter, Quentin, Ryan, Steve, Terry, Ultan, Victor, Warren, and Xavier show up at EUS at 1639 with the above tickets...?

You forgot to add when James turns up at Coventry station and has a Network Railcard, and is fully aware of the Section 17 rule.

So repeat the same exercise with fare splitting options at Banbury, Milton Keynes or Northampton.

As for definitions, yes you are being a pedant. I'll take definition 3 or 7 of ghost:

ghost /ɡəʊst/
n
3) a faint trace or possibility of something; glimmer: a ghost of a smile
the spirit; soul (archaic, except in the phrase the Holy Ghost)
7) (modifier) falsely recorded as doing a particular job or fulfilling a particular function in order that some benefit, esp money, may be obtained: a ghost worker

from Wordreference.com. Now you will also note that the word combination can often refer to the fairground ride, but my reference was clearly to peak times and loadings - there is nothing scary about Virgin Trains, only the prices!

 

[calc7]

Really!! Friday mornings are for long distance travel & commuters but definitely not Friday afternoons in my 28yr experience

Even in the Virgin peak slot??

 

[rebmcr]

As for definitions, yes you are being a pedant. I'll take definition 3 or 7 of ghost from Wordreference.com. Now you will also note that the word combination can often refer to the fairground ride, but my reference was clearly to peak times and loadings - there is nothing scary about Virgin Trains, only the prices!

I think adapting the definition of "ghost town" fits this situation much better.

 

[paul1609]

Apart from some genuinely 'peak' times, many of Virgin's 'peak' services are actually very lightly loaded, as you have to spend a fortune to travel on them.

That said, a lot of destinations Off Peak tickets are valid on trains that may be considered 'peak', including most Railcard discounted Off Peak tickets, but the exceptions are not well publicised and a lot of people probably think "oh that's a peak train, I can't travel on it", this is also not helped by a small number of obnoxious guards who incorrectly excess people on valid tickets! (I hasten to add, they are a small minority, but nothing ever seems to get done about them! It's the same with EC, the worst, infamous, culprit on EC is still up to his usual tricks! And those of you who know who he is, yes REALLY! Not enough people complain when they are incorrectly charged, only a small number seem to bother!)

Virgin's poor peak loadings are so bad that they're having to spend thousands of pounds (shareholders: don't worry! taxpayers are footing the bill!) to employ people to introduce super duper off peak tickets and mess about with the restriction codes, in order to even out the demand. But they'll probably never totally succeed because of Virgin's pricing policy. So far they've had the brilliant (!) idea of making these super duper off peak tickets not valid at certain times at weekends!

In all fairness to Virgin the loading of the trains leaving London in the morning peak is because the Dft specifies a level of service that is many times that required by the demand.
This has always been the case going back to BR days.
Demand for services leaving London in the morning is pretty weak even at weekends when there are no off peak restrictions. Obviously there are events like football, NEC which change that.
I'd suggest that if you wanted to fill all the current services then you'd probably have to offer advances that paid the customer for travelling. Obviously the train movements are required to balance the inward move to London so its a case of running near empty trains or ECS.

 

[hs2critic]

I think adapting the definition of "ghost town" fits this situation much better.

Well I thought "Specials" here just meant one-off excursions services

Anyway, that song might have its roots in Coventry, but iirc it was written about Glasgow.

However yes - that is the meaning of ghost train I meant - not as in the Madness Ghost Train that never comes, but as in a train so empty, you wonder why it is running.

I also thought of using parliamentary train, but that would mean so few trains were running, rather than that loads of trains ran, but nobody was on them, so I stuck with the ghosts.

 

[yorkie]

Wow, and I thought my near-exclusive use of Y—P Advances was complicated. It's really simple in comparison to that!

Indeed. I note no-one has yet attempted to answer the question on the return portions. Any Virgin Guards or (ex-) barrier staff? (I know we have a few members who used to work at the Euston barriers!)

Of course the restrictions are so complex, you have to look each one up. So staff have no idea when checking tickets if they are valid or not, without consulting each one individually (or having a REALLY good memory). A consequence of this is that some staff just can't be bothered to look them up (you'd never get through a full train doing that), so many valid tickets get incorrectly excessed, and sometimes invalid tickets get passed. There is a saying some of us have, 'there are valid tickets that look invalid, and there invalid tickets that look valid, and many tickets in between'.

...and going down I always try to travel the previous day and stay with friends or family.

I think you mean Up! As mentioned in previous posts, probably better to use the terms Northbound/Southbound or 'towards/away from London', so everyone knows what you mean.

(Note: don't try to use geographical references on LU, as the staff may get confused and tell you off I once was asked where I am going to, at Putney Bridge, I said north to Willesden Jn, changing at West Brompton, and was sternly told "you mean Eastbound!" Try asking for Northbound from Finsbury Park to Cockfosters and a similar conversation may occur!)

Even in the Virgin peak slot??

Is a "peak slot" the real peak (when Off Peak is valid) or the empty trains false peak (when Off Peak trains are not valid but you get a coach to yourself?)

You have to laugh - this could only happen in the rail industry.