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Virgin extension until 2017

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MidnightFlyer

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Almost all VT services should stop to pick up and set down at Milton Keynes, like almost all FGW services stop at Reading, not a city, population 155,300

Keynes ain't a city either, at least not as far as any meaningful or legal body is concerned. There needs to be a balance between getting passengers from the North and those who would use it from Keynes struck - see the highly undesirable case of Reading on FGW at peak times, and in some of my experiences off peak too. Of course the big advantage that Reading has over Keynes is the fact that it offers a lot of connections - for example on a FGW service from the Westcountry you change for Basingstoke, Southampton, Wokingham, Guildford, Gatwick Airport, Ascot and Slough for starters. At Keynes you'd have Hemel and Watford and not much else, though of course it does have a sizable further afield catchment area, probably bigger than Reading's (whose urban population is in excess of 300,000 btw).
 
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gordonthemoron

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how does Virgin's share of ORCATS revenue from MK work when they don't stop to pick up/set down during the peaks? i.e. are they getting paid (by season ticket holders) whilst not providing a service?
 

DarloRich

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Why do intercity express trains need to stop at a commuter-town station that already has a good service provision?

The only VT stops that I could understand at MK are picking-up only going North and setting-down only going South to provide connections to the North, which is the only weakness in MK's service.

Or perhaps VT should just omit it altogether like Watford...

I have highlighted the key section of your post. They stop there to make money.

Your view seems to be that people paying for an expensive ticket should not travel on the fastest train so that longer distance passengers can have a more comfortable ride, even when, potentially, paying less! This seems to miss the point that the slower trains, that you suggest are more suitable for the commuters, are already filled with commuters further down there line. On what service should THOSE commuters travel?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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No - Virgins focus is on making money! IF they can do that by stopping every train at MK they will.

While that is undoubtedly true, it's the DfT that defines the stopping pattern, not VT.
It's the usual conflict between stops and end-to-end journey time.
 

aylesbury2

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No - Virgins focus is on making money! IF they can do that by stopping every train at MK they will.

As for the rest of your post it sems to contradict what you said above!
I'm saying enough trains stop there already. 20tph is more than enough for MKC.
 

DarloRich

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Keynes ain't a city either, at least not as far as any meaningful or legal body is concerned. There needs to be a balance between getting passengers from the North and those who would use it from Keynes struck - see the highly undesirable case of Reading on FGW at peak times, and in some of my experiences off peak too. Of course the big advantage that Reading has over Keynes is the fact that it offers a lot of connections - for example on a FGW service from the Westcountry you change for Basingstoke, Southampton, Wokingham, Guildford, Gatwick Airport, Ascot and Slough for starters. At Keynes you'd have Hemel and Watford and not much else, though of course it does have a sizable further afield catchment area, probably bigger than Reading's (whose urban population is in excess of 300,000 btw).

MK will offer a lot more connections when E-W opens. Regardless of that it is a growing town. The Virgin income projections see an increase on the number of passengers using Milton Keynes.

As for getting passengers from the north, how will they be affected by stopping at MK? They will already be on the train surely?

Reading is similar and the main objection there seems to be that commuters use the fast train. My response is why should they use a slower train to get to/from work when their ticket allows them to use the fast one? Why would the TOC readily give away that revenue?
 

MidnightFlyer

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not according to WIKI (town and borough), where'd you think I got the figure?

From the 'Urban' entry just underneath, but in fairness that does cover a lot of places you would consider independent of Reading (like Theale and Wokingham); but only in the same way Keynes's entry on Wiki does (which covers places like Newport Pagnell and Woburn Sands).

I tend to use this as my Bible on these kinds of matters though, they filter through a lot of ONS stuff to get the figures:

http://lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/TownsTable1.asp

(Reading 219,000, Keynes 172,000)
 

MidnightFlyer

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MK will offer a lot more connections when E-W opens. Regardless of that it is a growing town. The Virgin income projections see an increase on the number of passengers using Milton Keynes.

As for getting passengers from the north, how will they be affected by stopping at MK? They will already be on the train surely?

Reading is similar and the main objection there seems to be that commuters use the fast train. My response is why should they use a slower train to get to/from work when their ticket allows them to use the fast one? Why would the TOC readily give away that revenue?

I agree fully it should be looked into once E-W opens, it's just at the moment the feature Reading has over that is the near endless list of connections it offers. I was thinking more in the case of heading North the problem would lie - as happens on FGW now it gets swamped with Reading customers leaving those on for Cardiff, Brissle or the Far West standing or in less desirable seats (airline / no view or whatever you'd judge it to mean).

Your final point I don't necessarily disagree with, it's just again I'm inclined to study the FGW example where such an occurrence isn't greatly popular with longer distance passengers (or some staff!).
 

DarloRich

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I am not saying all trains should stop at MK from tomorrow but a time will come in the relatively short term when they may well have to.

None of the peak time trains (LM or Virgin) are pleasant out of Euston. In an idle moment crammed in next to a toilet I have often wondered if a Virgin commuter service might have some legs like the old style cobblers. I realise it isn’t really possible with current stock utilisation and pathing but it is a nice thought whilst leaning on a toilet door! ;)
 

gordonthemoron

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I was on the 19:10 VT out of EUS on Tuesday, first train after rush hour. Packed to the gunwales (10 car voyager), almost all the passengers left at MK
 

Emyr

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Can't we just drop a few nuclear bombs on MK. Then we wouldn't need this endless merry go round every time

No need for nukes, unless you intend to establish a grey belt between Derby and London.

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough...
 

Iskra

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I have highlighted the key section of your post. They stop there to make money.

Your view seems to be that people paying for an expensive ticket should not travel on the fastest train so that longer distance passengers can have a more comfortable ride, even when, potentially, paying less! This seems to miss the point that the slower trains, that you suggest are more suitable for the commuters, are already filled with commuters further down there line. On what service should THOSE commuters travel?

No, that's not what my view is.

My view is that LM should be providing adequate fast/semi-fast service between MK and London. It defeats the point of VT express services if they are going to stop at relatively insignificant towns en route.

I don't think that commuters should have slow trains at all (LM's trains are hardly slow compared to sprinters etc anyway...). My point is that VT shouldn't be doing LM's job. My other point is that there are a number of people on this board who think the world revolve's around MK and insist on turning every thread about the WCML into a 'MK has a poor service,' debate when in reality it's significantly better than most towns of a similar size get.

Furthermore, when I travelled into Euston regularly it was always on trains that went flying through, so I'm not in the 'bloody MK commuters ruining my journey' camp.
 

gordonthemoron

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still no answer to my question, has anyone any idea how much money Virgin take off MK-EUS commuters whilst not providing a usable service?
 

merlodlliw

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Heres todays shropshire Star article,it appears from reading it,the announcement was made on Shrewsbury Station.http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-link-back-on-track-in-major-transport-boost/

Shropshire received a major double transport boost today, as vital new links to the nation’s roads and rail network were announced.



The long campaign for a direct rail service between the county and London has finally borne fruit, as a renewed Virgin Trains franchise agreement was revealed to include a stipulation that the operator must include the route.

Virgin also used the announcement to confirm its plans to run seven days of services between the county and the capital, beginning in December.

The company will now submit a request to the Office of Rail Regulation to extend current services from London. Under the plans, Shrewsbury would have two services in each direction Monday to Saturday and one service in each direction on Sunday. Midweek servies leave Shrewsbury at 6.39am and 3.24pm with return services leaving London Euston at 10.23am and 6.23pm.

Meanwhile, drivers waiting for a motorway link road between the M54 and the M6 Toll have received the clearest indication yet that the Government is prepared to provide the link road, after a response to a question from Shrewsbury MP Daniel Kawczynski in the House of Commons.

The rail service was revealed today, with Rail Minister Stephen Hammond stopping in Shrewsbury to announce the news on the main platform of the town’s railway station.

The franchise agreement for Virgin has been renewed, ahead of a full competitive tender in 2017. And campaigners had demanded that it include the direct rail link, with Mr Kawczynski telling Mr Hammond last week that the new franchise “must” include the route.

The Shrewsbury MP today hailed the news as an important boost to the county’s economy and tourism.

He said: “This is an important announcement for Shrewsbury and Shropshire. I have been campaigning for this for many years. It will be a boost for our economy but also for tourism.”

Shropshire Chamber of Commerce chief executive, Richard Sheehan, said: “It’s very positive news that Shropshire is being recognised in this way.


“All too often we have felt like we have been ignored, not listened to, and left to our own devices, so it is testament to the collaboration between many groups and organisations that these projects are getting off the ground.

“It’s fantastic that Shropshire is being recognised as worthy of this significant investment.”

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said the announcement was part of the Government’s long-term economic plan to drive forward the economy and “provide better services now and great services with HS2”.

He added: “The West Coast provides a vital artery between London and Scotland and it is crucial we do everything we can to improve services on this much-used route.”

As part of the deal, Virgin has committed to employing at least 30 apprentices, 18 traineeships, four Network Rail Track and Train graduate placements, 12 Virgin Red Track scheme participants and 12 ex-offenders through the St Giles Trust.

The operator also said there will be “significant improvements” for customers with the introduction of free superfast WiFi, more seats and new services.

Virgin Trains previously lost out to FirstGroup in the battle for a new 13-year West Coast franchise, but the process was scrapped by the Department for Transport due to errors in the bidding process. It resulted in a temporary deal allowing Virgin to run the West Coast service. Virgin is paying £430 million to the Government over the course of the contract.

The franchise serves more than 30 million passengers a year and covers areas including London, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Strathclyde and Lothian.

Virgin said 21 trains will have one of their first class carriages converted to standard class, for a net increase of 2,100 seats per day.

The new agreement will run until April 2017 after which a new competed long-term franchise is expected to commence.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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still no answer to my question, has anyone any idea how much money Virgin take off MK-EUS commuters whilst not providing a usable service?

That's a silly question.
The timetable, and split between VT and LM, is set by DfT as part of the franchise spec.
VT don't just choose to call there or not.
And DfT regulates most of the fares, especially seasons.
DfT had plans for commuter IEPs between Euston, MKC and Northampton, but have not proceeded with it so far.
The primary responsibility for MKC-Euston services lies with LM.
You might argue why they prioritise longer distance services over increasing the frequency at MKC, but again it's at DfT behest.
 

Hazlehead

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As far as I'm aware virgin only receive 4% share of revenue from an any permitted fare. So you may pay £10000 or more for a season ticket yet virgins share is only £400 so why should it see its services crammed to the rafters for that amount. I've been on early morning services that stop there and regularly see 200+ getting on an already busy train whilst LM service on opposite platform departs with most 30-40 ppl.
Virgin Only fares were introduced to try capture some of the off peak demand for mkc yet whether anyone likes it or not they are not going to stop there in peak and become swamped with commuters as this will have detrimental effect on its long distance passenger's who mostly at peak times pay a small fortune.
3 trains an hour of virgin already stop there off peak with a few peak services too which as others have said become overwhelmed.
 
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222001

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I'm wondering what these 21 coaches of first class that will be converted to standard will be.

As has been pointed out, there are 21 9 car 390s which could each be having a coach converted, or this could be referring to the 21 221 coaches which are currently sometimes used as standard and sometimes used as first. Has there been an clarification on this?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As far as I'm aware virgin only receive 4% share of revenue from an any permitted fare.

The current short franchise (just ending) was on the basis of VT earning a management fee of 1% of revenue (I think), the rest going to DfT.
They are not laughing all the way to the bank with that.
 

Simon11

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As far as I'm aware virgin only receive 4% share of revenue from an any permitted fare. So you may pay £10000 or more for a season ticket yet virgins share is only £400 so why should it see its services crammed to the rafters for that amount. I've been on early morning services that stop there and regularly see 200+ getting on an already busy train whilst LM service on opposite platform departs with most 30-40 ppl.
Virgin Only fares were introduced to try capture some of the off peak demand for mkc yet whether anyone likes it or not they are not going to stop there in peak and become swamped with commuters as this will have detrimental effect on its long distance passenger's who mostly at peak times pay a small fortune.
3 trains an hour of virgin already stop there off peak with a few peak services too which as others have said become overwhelmed.

For the latest timetable, VT get the following from ORCATS (Lennon). Does anyone have access to the ORCATS system to check the below?

VT get 42% share to London BR on Season Tickets, 55% Full Return, 66% Reduced and 50% Full Single.

Above, you seem to be forgetting that if VT make stops at MKC during peak hours, their ORCATS should would be far higher. However ignoring the DfT, they would have to analyse the benefits of increasing journeys by 3-5 minutes which would reduce revenue from long distance pax to get the additional revenue from MKC.
 

dvboy

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Interesting that they don't seem to be gating Wolverhampton and Coventry!

Wolverhampton won't be gated unless the whole concourse is remodeled due to space. There are plans by Centro to do this anyway.

Coventry has had them before, but Virgin took them out in 2008 because they found they were protecting more of Central Trains' revenue than their own, and Central Trains wouldn't pay for them.

Consider that a) a significant majority of people using these stations are going to be travelling to Birmingham where there will be gates, b) there are ticket checks on almost all of Virgin's trains once they are north of Wolves or south of Coventry, and c) that typical fare dodgers are more likely to be making short local journeys that Virgin aren't interested in protecting revenue for, and it's not going to be worth the investment for Virgin.
 

gordonthemoron

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Several Virgin services to/from Milton Keynes in morning peak. Similar in afternoon where its after 1500 so virgins peak yet restrictions allow travel to mkc on 1510,1520,1543

none between 7:14 and 8:47 southbound ex-MK and none between 16:43 and 18:43 northbound ex-EUS. This is what I would class as peak. The trains do stop at Milton Keynes to drop off southbound and pick up northbound but these are of no use to commuters. Services you mention are not peak
 
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