Vandalism/ASB getting worse on the railways?

[Bletchleyite]

Came across an active tagger dressed very well behind Temple Meads, he was just setting up and showed me his wheelie suitcase full of specialist spray cans which are apparently produced for the purpose and are upwards of £ 30 each he said, about 40 cans, around £ 1000 therefore in that case, he was putting his camera in position to live stream which pays for the operation and he said a modest life style, so its a modern career option. The canvas was a derelict wall already used as it were and not causing damage, he claimed he only used that type of location. A pleasant young man with a different outlook to an older generation.

A pleasant litterer? A pleasant pathway defecator?

Tagging is nasty. I would agree if he was doing artistic graffiti, but tagging is like littering or defecating on the floor but worse. Banksy has shown how to do it if you are going to - paint things that people actually want there and that enhance a boring concrete wall.

 

[43066]

Came across an active tagger dressed very well behind Temple Meads, he was just setting up and showed me his wheelie suitcase full of specialist spray cans which are apparently produced for the purpose and are upwards of £ 30 each he said, about 40 cans, around £ 1000 therefore in that case, he was putting his camera in position to live stream which pays for the operation and he said a modest life style, so its a modern career option. The canvas was a derelict wall already used as it were and not causing damage, he claimed he only used that type of location. A pleasant young man with a different outlook to an older generation.

So in other words you came across a criminal who vandalises property that doesn’t belong to him? I suppose drug dealing and burglary are also “career options” for some…

 

[D365]

I suppose the cable theft that was discovered this morning in the Market Harborough area is worth a mention here...

 

[43066]

I suppose the cable theft that was discovered this morning in the Market Harborough area is worth a mention here...

Apparently 500m worth. It has caused chaos all day which is still continuing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is worth saying that Bristol has a slightly different view on graffiti than the wider country. Whilst it is undesirable, random tagging is much more accepted as something that happens here almost as a price to pay for the wider graffiti and street art scene we have. Basically, people like Banksy wouldn't end up creating the art they are famous for if they didn't start off tagging and doing less artful pieces!

 

[John Luxton]

A pleasant litterer? A pleasant pathway defecator?

Tagging is nasty. I would agree if he was doing artistic graffiti, but tagging is like littering or defecating on the floor but worse. Banksy has shown how to do it if you are going to - paint things that people actually want there and that enhance a boring concrete wall.

No graffiti is artistic it is criminal damage unless it is done with the full consent of the owner of the wall / property concerned. It is despoilation of the environment.

 

[DarloRich]

No graffiti is artistic

that is an opinion. I don't agree with it.

it is criminal damage unless it is done with the full consent of the owner

that is a fact - I can only agree with it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2022 ==

Personally I find my journey is of much lower quality if I can't see out of the window because someone has daubed paint all over it or scratched it.

I get that point.

There have been many studies that show that people feel less safe in areas where grafitti is present (rightly or wrongly, it's how people feel rather than whether they are actually less safe). For example

Research in practice no. 6. Canberra: Australian Institute of Criminology.

I understand that is a view. I don't understand how people feel like that. Paint cant harm you. Is it conditioning? People are told that graffiti is symptom of the collapse of society therefore society must be collapsing because there is graffiti?

 

[philthetube]

Have a look at some images of trains in Portugal, sure fresh graffiti does not look bad if you are into that sort of thing but the trains just look black and grotty, should these "artists" maintain their work and come and clean it with the loving care it needs every week, train washes will damage it.

 

[John Luxton]

that is an opinion. I don't agree with it.


that is a fact - I can only agree with it

Why opinion?

If a wall or building is painted with permission then it ceases to be graffiti and then becomes permitted art. I tend to use the term graffiti to describe pointless scrawlings applied without the property owners permission.

Now I am prepared to express the opinion that my taste in art is more Turner / Cuneo / Monet than it is the modern weird and whacky. - Now that is an opinion.

Not that I am against all modern art.

Ten years ago I took a black cab taxi tour around the Belfast Murals. That was a fascinating experience all late 20th early 21st Century - but well done and illustrative of the history and politics of the communities in which they appear. I wouldn't class those as graffiti very much cultural landmarks which have been appropriated into the tourist industry. I would say the same about historical wall murals I have encountered in other locations as well.

 

[kristiang85]

I understand that is a view. I don't understand how people feel like that. Paint cant harm you. Is it conditioning? People are told that graffiti is symptom of the collapse of society therefore society must be collapsing because there is graffiti?

Probably becasue areas with grafitti tend to be darker, out of the way areas (and to be honest people doing it tend to wear hoodies/masks as it is a slightly illicit activity, which adds to the threat).

But likely those areas, even without grafitti there, would feel unsafe anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

Why opinion?

You said: No graffiti is artistic. That is an opinion. I also suggest it isn't an accurate opinion but it is your opinion to express.

Probably becasue areas with grafitti tend to be darker, out of the way areas (and to be honest people doing it tend to wear hoodies/masks as it is a slightly illicit activity, which adds to the threat).

But likely those areas, even without grafitti there, would feel unsafe anyway.

I wouldn't. The graffiti and the graffiti applicator are not going to do you over. This is my point: an inability to actually grade danger.

PS: I wear a hoodie all the time.

 

[al78]

You said: No graffiti is artistic. That is an opinion. I also suggest it isn't an accurate opinion but it is your opinion to express.


I wouldn't. The graffiti and the graffiti applicator are not going to do you over. This is my point: an inability to actually grade danger.

PS: I wear a hoodie all the time.

It is not about the threat from the graffiti and the applicator, it is about the run-down/neglected look after the graffiti has been applied, and areas that look scruffy/neglected are associated with being the roaming grounds for criminals.

Broken Windows Theory

The broken windows theory states that visible signs of disorder and misbehavior in an environment encourage further disorder and misbehavior, leading to serious crimes. The principle was developed to explain the decay of neighborhoods, but it is often applied to work and educational environments.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[mmh]

No graffiti is artistic it is criminal damage unless it is done with the full consent of the owner of the wall / property concerned. It is despoilation of the environment.

What would your approach be to Oscar Wilde's tomb? Or the graffiti at places like Alcatraz?

Zero tolerance rarely easily translates into absolute zero tolerance.

 

[alex397]

Banksy has shown how to do it if you are going to - paint things that people actually want there and that enhance a boring concrete wall.

Banksy is no doubt a good artist. But he hasn’t just targeting boring concrete walls, but recently he targeted the interior of a London Underground train, which of course sets quite a bad example.

 

[John Luxton]

What would your approach be to Oscar Wilde's tomb? Or the graffiti at places like Alcatraz?

Zero tolerance rarely easily translates into absolute zero tolerance.

I had to look these up to see examples.

However, I would say graffiti on a tomb is disrespectful and at a historical tourist location in the case of Alcatraz I would see graffiti as vandalism unless it was such that it was retained from when it was a functioning prison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2022 ==

It is not about the threat from the graffiti and the applicator, it is about the run-down/neglected look after the graffiti has been applied, and areas that look scruffy/neglected are associated with being the roaming grounds for criminals.

Broken Windows Theory

The broken windows theory states that visible signs of disorder and misbehavior in an environment encourage further disorder and misbehavior, leading to serious crimes. The principle was developed to explain the decay of neighborhoods, but it is often applied to work and educational environments.

www.psychologytoday.com

The Broken Windows theory was something I recall one of the UK's hardline chief constables putting forward to justify a zero tolerance approach.

There is something to be said about correcting damage immediately otherwise it just encourages more damage by any form of vandalism not just graffiti.

 

[43066]

I understand that is a view. I don't understand how people feel like that. Paint cant harm you. Is it conditioning? People are told that graffiti is symptom of the collapse of society therefore society must be collapsing because there is graffiti?

I suppose it’s just another form of urban blight which, much like fly-tipped mattresses, burned out cars or derelict buildings, gives the impression that A. People don’t care enough about a place to not cause the damage in the first place and B. Nobody then cares enough about it to clear it up.

The sorts of areas where most people would want to live (ironically including many graffiti artists) don’t tend to suffer from these issues.

PS: I wear a hoodie all the time.

So do I but, not knowing me from Adam, if you saw me walking towards you late at night, in a rough area with lots of graffiti, you might well cross the road! It’s all about context.

 

[Runningaround]

I had to look these up to see examples.

However, I would say graffiti on a tomb is disrespectful and at a historical tourist location in the case of Alcatraz I would see graffiti as vandalism unless it was such that it was retained from when it was a functioning prison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2022 ==


The Broken Windows theory was something I recall one of the UK's hardline chief constables putting forward to justify a zero tolerance approach.

There is something to be said about correcting damage immediately otherwise it just encourages more damage by any form of vandalism not just graffiti.

Zero tolerance is exact so if you paint your house and drops land outside your property boundaries would you expect a fine?
Will you expect a knock on the door after scribbling a pen on a poster to get the ink running again?

And The Belfast murals do you think the owner of the house had a choice of having one on his wall?
Houses around Anfield are getting murals now other walls have tag type graffiti is it the type of work you object to or all types of graffiti?

 

[kristiang85]

I wouldn't. The graffiti and the graffiti applicator are not going to do you over. This is my point: an inability to actually grade danger.

PS: I wear a hoodie all the time.

Oh I agree - its about perception to the average person, which is why a graffitti filled dark area of town would come out low in a 'safety perception' survey (or whatever its called!).

I'm a bloke who's a fast walker, and once I had a lady turn on me in quite a panic because she felt unsafe at me coming at her at a rate of knots on a dark night behind her on a pavement (I was oblivious to the fact, as it was just my normal route at my normal speed in a place I knew well, albeit poorly lit). Although I was slightly shocked at the turn of events, I could see her point to be honest, even though I was obviously no threat. So its quite easy to see how an average person can say an unlit, graffitti filled street (or train station) feels more unsafe, even though there's no justification for it.

 

[43066]

Zero tolerance is exact so if you paint your house and drops land outside your property boundaries would you expect a fine?
Will you expect a knock on the door after scribbling a pen on a poster to get the ink running again?

The first example is completely irrelevant as a few drops of paint accidentally spilled while painting a house would be a mistake and therefore not criminal damage. Scribbling on a poster with a pen well, yes, if it isn’t your poster you might well get a knock on the door, because you’d be intentionally damaging property belonging to someone else. Try scribbling on a poster where you work, on one hanging in a museum or gallery, or on an advert on a train in front of the BTP.

I’m not sure you really understand why criminal damage is illegal in the first place. How would you feel if I came and sprayed a load of grossly offensive words all over your house and then justified what I’d done on the basis that it was “artistic”? Would you just accept that and pay for cleaning yourself? Or would you want that behaviour to be illegal (and punishable)?

Do you think it’s right that fare-payers’ and taxpayers’ money has to be used to repair this kind of wilful damage on the railway? For example the class 700 I passed yesterday that was so heavily graffitied that it had been left sitting in the depot, no doubt at enormous cost in cancellation and cleaning fees.

 

[Alanko]

Why do railfans get disproportionately outraged about graffiti?

 

[Gloster]

Why do railfans get disproportionately outraged about graffiti?

Because for most people it is something that happens to other people’s property: they may not like it, but it isn’t theirs. But they are OUR trains.

 

[philthetube]

I don't think they do, they just have a place here to show their dislike, most people don't have that opportunity

 

[Gostav]

Why do railfans get disproportionately outraged about graffiti?

Because we're rail spotters of love and justice in in a Sailor Suit! it's impossible to ignore this behavior!

There is ample evidence that they are not just graffiti, but are often accompanied by other acts of vandalism and violence.

Like the actions like this, if you don't think it's affecting people's normal lives, then I really don't know what is normal life.

This video just published a few days ago, shows how they destroyed cctv camera and other property in UK. Look the smug shoot of a man (looks Eastern European because l see some elements in video) with the camera they wrecked.

 

[philthetube]

It should be illegal to host this sort of vid glorifying criminal acts, shoplifting graffiti whatever,
Youtube, tiktok, whoever, the penalty for not removing this sort of content promptly ought to be that the site is taken off the air, an hour first offence, a day second etc.


there is not even a report option on youtube suitable to report this sort of thing.

 

[citycat]

On the Railway Bridge across the North Circular at Stonebridge Park. It was in 10 foot high letters and there for over 20 years. M Khan is bent ok.

For anyone not aware who M Khan is, it refers to Micky Khan who was a train guard for GNER and who was my colleague when I was a guard. He was very very efficient in bringing in revenue from passengers who did not hold the correct type of ticket for the train or finding fare dodgers in the toilets or hiding between the seats. He was so good that he was easily the highest earner of commission amongst us guards.

However, he obviously upset someone enough that they risked their lives above the overhead wires to spray the graffiti on the bridge. I don’t believe Micky was offended at all by the tag and he was actually quite proud of it, finding it an endorsement that he was doing his revenue protection the best he could.

Micky is in his seventies and I believe he is still occasionally manning a gateline as a part timer, eagle eyed for any fare dodgers.

 

[Alanko]

Because for most people it is something that happens to other people’s property: they may not like it, but it isn’t theirs. But they are OUR trains.

Are you a TOC or a leasing company? They are not our trains and not there for our amusement either.

Graffiti is an issue for me in that it indicates that people can hang around in the four or six foot undetected; presumably in depots but maybe elsewhere across the network. Network Rail's policy of promoting lineside biodiversity in the form of tree cover possibly doesn't help.

For me it also makes me feel less safe on trains (more so abroad where the graffiti continues into the trains). Security can't be especially tight onboard a train if, again, somebody can extensively graffiti the interior of a carriage.

Saying all that, I never see a tagged train and take it as a personal slight as many seem to do.

 

[John Luxton]

Why do railfans get disproportionately outraged about graffiti?

All graffiti outrages me - it does not have to be confined to the railway environment.

I see the property of others being mindlessly vandalised and it spoils the environment.

Whether the "others" are individuals or corporate bodies it does not matter.

I was brought up to respect the property of others and expect people to respect my property. - Just normal standards really and nothing to do with my interest in railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2022 ==

Zero tolerance is exact so if you paint your house and drops land outside your property boundaries would you expect a fine?
Will you expect a knock on the door after scribbling a pen on a poster to get the ink running again?

And The Belfast murals do you think the owner of the house had a choice of having one on his wall?
Houses around Anfield are getting murals now other walls have tag type graffiti is it the type of work you object to or all types of graffiti?

First of all if I dripped paint on my neighbours' I would clean it up. Last summer I saw my next door neighbour outside my front window with a power washer. She had accidentally kicked over a pot of paint and it had gone one my paving. She did the decent thing and cleaned it off. I never asked her to and if I had done the same would have also cleaned it.

I think Belfast would be rather an unusual case as it isn't straight forward graffiti - it is a cultural / historic thing I would guess not allowing it would cause problems in one way or another beyond just the graffiti issue.

Not been around Anfield for a long time - having no interest in fooball I have no reason to venture there. - But if it is happening it should not happen.

 

[Runningaround]

All graffiti outrages me - it does not have to be confined to the railway environment.

I see the property of others being mindlessly vandalised and it spoils the environment.

Whether the "others" are individuals or corporate bodies it does not matter.

I was brought up to respect the property of others and expect people to respect my property. - Just normal standards really and nothing to do with my interest in railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2022 ==


First of all if I dripped paint on my neighbours' I would clean it up. Last summer I saw my next door neighbour outside my front window with a power washer. She had accidentally kicked over a pot of paint and it had gone one my paving. She did the decent thing and cleaned it off. I never asked her to and if I had done the same would have also cleaned it.

I think Belfast would be rather an unusual case as it isn't straight forward graffiti - it is a cultural / historic thing I would guess not allowing it would cause problems in one way or another beyond just the graffiti issue.

Not been around Anfield for a long time - having no interest in fooball I have no reason to venture there. - But if it is happening it should not happen.

So you were all right with paint going straight down the drain.

So it's only ok if you have an interest in the topic but anyone elses is vandalism. What difference is having a Mural of a significant part of Belfast's history on your house depicting violent events or Paramilitaries, to Liverpool having one of Mo Salah, Kenny Dalgleish, Bill Shankly and Jurgen Klopp celebrating the achievements' of Liverpool FC? .

 

[Scott1]

Why do railfans get disproportionately outraged about graffiti?

Most of the complaints I get about grafitti are from passengers, not 'railfans' but rail users.

 

[WelshBluebird]

No graffiti is artistic it is criminal damage unless it is done with the full consent of the owner of the wall / property concerned. It is despoilation of the environment.

People don't seem to take that view if it is Banksy doing something on someone's wall without permission!

Ten years ago I took a black cab taxi tour around the Belfast Murals. That was a fascinating experience all late 20th early 21st Century - but well done and illustrative of the history and politics of the communities in which they appear. I wouldn't class those as graffiti very much cultural landmarks which have been appropriated into the tourist industry. I would say the same about historical wall murals I have encountered in other locations as well.

But most of those murals ARE graffiti and would have been initially done without permission.

All graffiti outrages me - it does not have to be confined to the railway environment.

But you've literally said about you taking a tour of such graffiti murals in Belfast so clearly all graffiti doesn't outrage you. You actually do appreciate some of it! Or do you decide that if you like it then it is not longer graffiti?