Valid Route on Split Ticketing

[joke2711]

Hi

A retrospective question ... last Friday I was travelling from Milton Keynes to Liverpool South Parkway for which I had an Off Peak 1st Class Single. On arrival at Milton Keynes I purchased a ticket from Liverpool South Parkway to Hoylake to save time whilst interchanging to Merseyrail at South Parkway.

My Departure (1441) was delayed en-route and arrived Crewe 10 minutes after the connection at 1557 to South Parkway had departed. As this was obviously going to happen and as the train manager was sat at the back of 1st class, I asked if I could travel via Chester to connect with Merseyrail. I pointed out that If I did that I would get home quicker (albeit slightly later than scheduled) and there would be no delay repay.

He said that he was happy to convey me as far as Chester but I would have to buy an additional ticket to travel from Chester to Birkenhead.

Faced with that option of arriving either 15 minutes late with an additional cost or 45 minutes late with a refund of £41 I chose the later.

I guess my question is twofold;

As Milton Keynes to Hoylake is valid either route, if you have 2 tickets that split at a point on one route, does that route have to be followed?

If the above is yes, in the case of delay, does that route as a quicker option then become viable?

Comments as always really appreciated.
Thanks

 

[RJ]

I guess my question is twofold;

As Milton Keynes to Hoylake is valid either route, if you have 2 tickets that split at a point on one route, does that route have to be followed?

If the above is yes, in the case of delay, does that route as a quicker option then become viable?

Comments as always really appreciated.
Thanks

Yes to the first one - you have to follow the permitted route of each ticket. Otherwise people could save a hell of a lot of money by doing splits like London to Reading and Reading to Birmingham and travelling direct via the WCML.

 

[kieron]

He said that he was happy to convey me as far as Chester but I would have to buy an additional ticket to travel from Chester to Birkenhead.

This makes it sounds as though the guard thought he was doing you a favour here. You would have been entirely within your rights to use Virgin to Chester and Merseyrail from there to Hoylake using the tickets you already held. EJ+CH is a relevant map combination for doing this with a Milton Keynes-Liverpool South Parkway ticket, but it's easy enough to find an itinerary on a ticket site which goes that way.

It may be worth taking this up with Virgin.

As Milton Keynes to Hoylake is valid either route, if you have 2 tickets that split at a point on one route, does that route have to be followed?[

It does based on the way I usually read the Conditions of Travel and the like. There are plenty of unclear terms in the documents, so you may be able to read it in a way which says otherwise. I haven't tried, though.

If the above is yes, in the case of delay, does that route as a quicker option then become viable?

I'm pretty sure that has to be "no". Delays don't change what is valid (other than with advance tickets). They may affect the attitude of rail staff to someone who chooses an unusual route, but you'd need to see the individual member of staff about that.

 

[gray1404]

Make sure you claim Delay Repay from Virgin based on the over all value of the ticket combination. I have known VTWC to reject split ticket claims (sometimes not) so make sure they pay up correctly for the 45 minute delay.

 

[Starmill]

Why didn't you just buy a Milton Keynes Central to Hoylake ticket?

 

[methethpropbut]

This reminds me of a case I saw on this very forum where someone had London - Manchester and Manchester - Preston tickets and wanted to jump on the direct train to Preston - turns out that is a valid route as both tickets do allow travel via Warrington.

I guess in both cases, one has a ticket from A-C and C-D, but they're valid A-B-C and C-B-D respectively and hence the combination will be valid on A-B-D omitting C.

 

[Merseysider]

This reminds me of a case I saw on this very forum where someone had London - Manchester and Manchester - Preston tickets and wanted to jump on the direct train to Preston - turns out that is a valid route as both tickets do allow travel via Warrington.

I guess in both cases, one has a ticket from A-C and C-D, but they're valid A-B-C and C-B-D respectively and hence the combination will be valid on A-B-D omitting C.

[deleted]

Why didn't you just buy a Milton Keynes Central to Hoylake ticket?

Presumably they were unaware that a through ticket could be purchased, or there was a change of plan

 

[methethpropbut]

No. South Parkway to Hoylake is not valid via Chester.

The issue is why the OP paid separately when MKC-HYK is the same price as MKC-LPY.

Presumably they were unaware that a through ticket could be purchased, or there was a change of plan.

Ah no, I meant Hamilton Square for B in this case :P

 

[Merseysider]

Ah no, I meant Hamilton Square for B in this case :P

Ah, I follow now. My apologies!

Yes, MKC-LPY is indeed valid via Chester and Hamilton Square, and as it was an Off Peak ticket (and not an Advance) there was no requirement to remain aboard the Virgin Train until South Parkway.

You are correct

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, via Chester is often the quickest way of travelling from MKC to many Merseyrail stations (even as far north as Aughton Park) because with the 15 minute frequency Merseyrail service the connections are timed better than going to Crewe then using LM. I was surprised the first time I saw it but it is the case.

Re that route I'm not sure I would complain about it to VT, it's a bit obscure, really, and to LPY itself is just about never going to be quickest.

 

[joke2711]

Make sure you claim Delay Repay from Virgin based on the over all value of the ticket combination. I have known VTWC to reject split ticket claims (sometimes not) so make sure they pay up correctly for the 45 minute delay.

I have submitted a delay repay claim just on the Off-Peak 1st Single. Appreciate what you say but many times I have had my delay repay declined initially for connections on to Merseyrail from Lime Street and it isn't worth the hassle for another £3 ...

 

[joke2711]

Why didn't you just buy a Milton Keynes Central to Hoylake ticket?

Because I travelled the day before from South Parkway to Northampton then to Wembley Central.
Original plan was to drive to South Parkway but in the end a work colleague dropped me off.

 

[joke2711]

Yes to the first one - you have to follow the permitted route of each ticket. Otherwise people could save a hell of a lot of money by doing splits like London to Reading and Reading to Birmingham and travelling direct via the WCML.

Ah, I follow now. My apologies!

Yes, MKC-LPY is indeed valid via Chester and Hamilton Square, and as it was an Off Peak ticket (and not an Advance) there was no requirement to remain aboard the Virgin Train until South Parkway.

You are correct

Indeed, via Chester is often the quickest way of travelling from MKC to many Merseyrail stations (even as far north as Aughton Park) because with the 15 minute frequency Merseyrail service the connections are timed better than going to Crewe then using LM. I was surprised the first time I saw it but it is the case.

Re that route I'm not sure I would complain about it to VT, it's a bit obscure, really, and to LPY itself is just about never going to be quickest.

No I am even more confused. Was the ticket I held valid via Chester and Birkenhead or as RJ states I have to follow the route of the split??

 

[Merseysider]

Liverpool South Parkway -> Birkenhead Hamilton Square -> Hoylake is valid.

MKC -> Crewe -> Runcorn -> Liverpool South Parkway, and

MKC -> Crewe -> Chester -> Birkenhead Hamilton Square -> Liverpool South Parkway are both valid routes.

You could have used your MKC->LPY ticket via Crewe, Chester, Hooton, Bromborough etc on Merseyrail, and stopped using it at Birkenhead Hamilton Square. Imagine that you could then theoretically continue via Liverpool to LPY to complete the route.

At Birkenhead Hamilton Square, you could then begin using your LPY->HYK ticket and go straight to Hoylake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No I am even more confused. Was the ticket I held valid via Chester and Birkenhead or as RJ states I have to follow the route of the split??

What he's saying is that MKC to Liverpool South Parkway (and indeed most of the rest of Merseyrail) is valid via Chester and Birkenhead. (It's also the quickest way between MKC and much of Merseyrail because that service doesn't stop on the Trent Valley and because of the good connections; the journey planner usually offers it without being specifically requested to do so).

Once at Birkenhead as Merseysider says you can use part of the other ticket for the last bit.

You can consider the two journeys separately, effectively. If you could have made them separately on the individual tickets (in this case by finishing one short and starting one short) you can do it in one go as well. The train has to stop at the station you change from one to the other, it doesn't have to be the start/end points on the ticket, just somewhere you can validly end one and start the other.

As a simpler example if you had Euston to Preston and Crewe to Carlisle walk-up tickets valid only via the WCML, assuming no break of journey restriction on either, you can change from one to the other at any of Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW or Preston.

 

[RJ]

No I am even more confused. Was the ticket I held valid via Chester and Birkenhead or as RJ states I have to follow the route of the split??

You do have to follow the permitted routes of each ticket.

Milton Keynes to Liverpool South Parkway is, permitted via Crewe, Chester and Hamilton Square. This then means that at that point you could switch to your Liverpool South Parkway to Hoylake ticket and complete your journey.

 

[joke2711]

So the train manager gave incorrect information .. thank you for your clarifications .. very much appreciated

 

[RJ]

So the train manager gave incorrect information .. thank you for your clarifications .. very much appreciated

It happens - although the general view of the railway is that ticket inspection staff can't be expected to know, or know how to check this sort of thing.

If you get an "offer of goodwill" from the guard to allow you to travel when your ticket is already valid, it's generally best just to say thanks and carry on your merry way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is fairly hard for them to check it at present.

What would be useful for staff (particularly now 2D barcodes are appearing on more and more tickets) would be a quick mobile phone app with which you scan the ticket and it simply calculates and displays a list of all the Permitted Routes for the ticket. It could also display the text of any Off Peak restriction.

Or even easier, it just scans the ticket, works out where you are by GPS (asking for clarification if it's not sure), and simply says yes (perhaps then listing valid continuations) or no (off-route).

 

[kieron]

What would be useful for staff (particularly now 2D barcodes are appearing on more and more tickets) would be a quick mobile phone app with which you scan the ticket and it simply calculates and displays a list of all the Permitted Routes for the ticket. It could also display the text of any Off Peak restriction.

I'm not sure it would be. I could be wrong, but I understand that Virgin's guards already have a tool (a ticket machine) which will tell them whether a ticket is valid on a particular route. This did not help here, so I'm not sure a new piece of software would help staff give to more accurate advice to customers.

 

[sheff1]

I'm not sure it would be. I could be wrong, but I understand that Virgin's guards already have a tool (a ticket machine) which will tell them whether a ticket is valid on a particular route. This did not help here, so I'm not sure a new piece of software would help staff give to more accurate advice to customers.

-

Indeed. I have been assured in writing that all EMT ticketing checking staff have a tool which they can use to check the validity of any given ticket. The issue is that some of them refuse to use the tool as they "know" the rules because they have been working there xx years.

 

[AlterEgo]

-

Indeed. I have been assured in writing that all EMT ticketing checking staff have a tool which they can use to check the validity of any given ticket.

Would that be a smartphone with access to National Rail Enquiries? Swish (!)

 

[sheff1]

Would that be a smartphone with access to National Rail Enquiries? Swish (!)

It could be, based on the letter from Customer Relations.

 

[Darandio]

How on earth did I receive a notification to say i've been quoted in post 2?

 

[RJ]

How on earth did I receive a notification to say i've been quoted in post 2?

It's this new quoting system...must have had another post of yours lingering at the top of the clipboard and deleted the wrong bits. Sorry to disappoint!

 

[Darandio]

It's this new quoting system...must have had another post of yours lingering at the top of the clipboard and deleted the wrong bits. Sorry to disappoint!

Ah well, got my 30 seconds of fame at least.