The problem is that transmission effects of the vaccines are still poorly understood, and whilst there is likely some, there probably isn't enough. Also of note, it isn't the teachers and restaurant workers that spread it in those settings, but the children and diners respectively. All that vaccinating "key workers" achieves is ensuring that if they do get it (having not had it already) they're more likely to shrug it off without noticing - just put keep putting it into the arms of the people identified by the JCVI (anyone 50+ or CEV)
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment
- Thread starter Yew
- Start date
- Status
The problem is that transmission effects of the vaccines are still poorly understood, and whilst there is likely some, there probably isn't enough. Also of note, it isn't the teachers and restaurant workers that spread it in those settings, but the children and diners respectively. All that vaccinating "key workers" achieves is ensuring that if they do get it (having not had it already) they're more likely to shrug it off without noticing - just put keep putting it into the arms of the people identified by the JCVI (anyone 50+ or CEV)
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
It is also important to consider the type of workers doing these roles and note these are 'general' comments which will not apply to everyone!
Restaurant workers are more likely to be younger, living in smaller shared flats and less concerned of the risks. There is also the consideration about the education level of restaurant workers and less likely to follow the rules. At every single 'cheap' takeaway shop I have seen recently (i.e. chicken take away), I have always been shocked at the low standards of cleaning and lack of care about covid. You are lucky if the staff doing cooking have a mask on.
Whereas majority of teachers are likely to have larger and less people living in their homes, better health and be more proactive to follow the guidelines ect. Despite having to deal with 30 children without PPE, the stats show that teachers are at less risk than Restaurant workers.
However, should restaurant workers get the jab before teacher because they face higher risks? Tough one! I personally would give the jab to teachers at half term, even though the risks are low to teachers simply for the fact that we need to get children back in school and reduce any chance for them to further lose out.
Restaurant workers are more likely to be younger, living in smaller shared flats and less concerned of the risks. There is also the consideration about the education level of restaurant workers and less likely to follow the rules. At every single 'cheap' takeaway shop I have seen recently (i.e. chicken take away), I have always been shocked at the low standards of cleaning and lack of care about covid. You are lucky if the staff doing cooking have a mask on.
Whereas majority of teachers are likely to have larger and less people living in their homes, better health and be more proactive to follow the guidelines ect. Despite having to deal with 30 children without PPE, the stats show that teachers are at less risk than Restaurant workers.
However, should restaurant workers get the jab before teacher because they face higher risks? Tough one! I personally would give the jab to teachers at half term, even though the risks are low to teachers simply for the fact that we need to get children back in school and reduce any chance for them to further lose out.
There's an important distinction to be made here. Should "key workers" like teachers, police, public facing transport workers, etc be vaccinated sooner than the general population? On balance I'd say yes given the higher exposure. Should they be done ASAP at the expense of people in the priority groups, absolutely not. There is an argument that people in those priority front line roles and also in the priority groups for vaccination should be moved forward in the queue, but I'm not sure I'll ever be convinced that 30 year old teachers should be getting vaccines over 60 year olds given the main role of the vaccine is preventing/reducing severe illness, hospitalisation and death - the numbers just don't stack up
Indeed, get the over 60's vaccinated, and then we don't have to worry about case numbers and can get pretty much back to normal. Vaccinating high-contact people perpetuates the myth that we need to attempt to 'control' the virus until everyone has been vaccinated, which simply isn't the case.
Question: Is it better to vaccinate a 30 year old teacher that is with working with 30 children (and thus families) plus has close contact with other children in the school too without any form of PPE equipment or a 60 year old who is working from home and is shielding? What about special education schools, where it is impossible to have social distancing with the youngsters? Is there any other professions where people are working very closely to other families without PPE?
We need to really focus on getting children back to school and getting school staff vaccinated should be considered a key step to this and remove the fear school staff currently face.
We need to really focus on getting children back to school and getting school staff vaccinated should be considered a key step to this and remove the fear school staff currently face.
Based on Saturday's vaccination rates, it will take 1.5 days to vaccinate teachers and support staff. Do this during half term (after the most vulnerable have been jabbed), and you have a strong chance of being able to provide a consistent teaching programme from March.
I'm sure most people would be happy to wait an extra 1.5 days so our children can get back to the classroom quicker and reduce the lost learning?
I'm sure most people would be happy to wait an extra 1.5 days so our children can get back to the classroom quicker and reduce the lost learning?
You're using circular logic; you're presuming that we need to vaccinate teachers to get schools back, and then saying it would be good to vaccinate teachers as it would get school back earlier.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 20,297
But vaccinating teachers achieves nothing.
The children are being constantly isolated because they might spread to other children.
Your reference to fear cuts to the heart of the problem. I believe there are arguments for prioritising teachers* as one of a number of categories of key worker once the top priority groups are vaccinated, but struggle with the argument from fear that is presented here.
The evidence is that teachers are not especially vulnerable as a profession, and that cases in schools involving pupil to teacher transmission are low; ditto hospitalisations and deaths. If the purpose of mass vaccination is to minimise the danger posed by Covid, then prioritising individual professions whose risk profile is not particularly high consumes finite resource in a way that undermines the overall policy objective.
Where individual teachers are at elevated risk, whether because of their age or health status, or because their job (e.g. special schools) is especially high contact, those individuals should be considered on the basis of their risk level.
* - I notice a focus on teachers. In primary schools, it's often the teaching assistants who work closest with the pupils - do they not deserve the same recognition, or is it just that they don't belong to a particular organisation?
I think there is a fairly strong counter argument, but I've not seen it used very often - and that's in ensuring education can continue. Teachers are not at high risk of hospitalisation or death, but if huge numbers of teachers fall unwell, then they are out of action and so education could be disrupted severely.
It's an unfounded concern as it's not the teacher doing the transmission but the kids themselves! You are right of course that if Granny (and/or any other vulnerable relatives) has been vaccinated then it's pretty inconsequential if the kid catches it and brings it home, bar the parents possibly feeling rotten for a few days
I think that most people use 'teachers' as shorthand for anyone dealing with kids in schools face to face
DorkingMain
Member
Agreed. I have absolutely no need for a COVID vaccine earlier.
Stop people dying from COVID first, and then start worrying about spread.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Yes to an extent - quite a lot of kids will have parents over 50 or with underlying health conditions (diabetes, for example, is quite prevalent in UK over-40s).
We should get the 9 priority groups done as a matter of urgency (over 50 + health conditions). Key workers could be a priority once that is done but it makes no sense to bump them any further up the queue than that.
Last edited:
When referring to news reports, it would be great if you can add a link and quote please
But yes I have heard similar preliminary reports do appear to be good news, and indeed more info has now been published; here is the BBC report:
Covid: Israel's vaccine rollout linked to infection fall
Less than 0.1% of vaccinated people caught coronavirus, and far fewer became ill.
www.bbc.co.uk
Remember these stats when some scaremongering news outlet makes a huge story about someone who is vaccinated falling ill. It will happen, but it will be a tiny number. No vaccine is 100% effective but these vaccines are extremely effective; much more so than many other vaccines in wide use.
I can only speak of the schools which I encounter. The disruption last term was not due to teachers' illnesses, but isolation requirements affecting teachers as pupils and their teachers had to isolate for periods. While those vaccinated are expected to follow the same advice as the rest of us, I see little practical gain in changing the pattern of vaccination.
If those pushing for earlier vaccination for teachers were making that argument, I'd have more respect for the case being made. Unfortunately, my observation is that, consistently, the argument is being framed in terms of the specific group of key workers and their fears, not in terms of maintaining the key service that employs them.
Schools can only function properly if fully staffed. Hence as now most of the elderly and vulnerable have received their first vaccine dose I support next prioritising all school workers to minimise staff sickness and absence. The second doses could then be scheduled for the Easter holiday.
What of course this will not stop or even drastically reduce is schools being a hot bed of transmission. First, unless I have missed data stating otherwise, the effectiveness of vaccination against transmission is still uncertain and second while most pupils will be asymtomatic most transmission will be between them. The only way to minimise this will be very regular 100% testing to detect those who are carriers.
What of course this will not stop or even drastically reduce is schools being a hot bed of transmission. First, unless I have missed data stating otherwise, the effectiveness of vaccination against transmission is still uncertain and second while most pupils will be asymtomatic most transmission will be between them. The only way to minimise this will be very regular 100% testing to detect those who are carriers.
Solent&Wessex
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 2,746
But unless the rules regarding isolation change then you won't solve the bulk of the problem with staff absence.
As reported by ONS, PHE etc teachers are statistically no more or less likely to catch and be ill from Covid than anyone else. Thus, as posted above, the vast majority of absence is likely to be related to people being flagged up as close contacts and having to isolate. That is certainly the case in my workplace - in public transport- where most absence is either because people are shielding or told to isolate because they have been a close contact of someone positive.
The current rules say that even if you have had the vaccine you still need to self isolate if flagged up as a close contact.
Unless that changes then the majority of teacher absence is not going to disappear.
The vaccination programme should proceed on the basis already planned - i.e. reducing the number of cases of people getting seriously ill and going to hospital. If anyone can show that vaccinating all teachers - or for that matter any of the other myriad of professions all claiming they should get priority above everyone else - will reduce the number of people getting seriously ill and going to hospital MORE quickly than continuing with the original JCVI plan then I'll happily change my mind.
Nurses and doctors in hospitals, I can understand getting them vaccinated as they have a greater chance of getting into contact with covid and need all the help they can get.
But can someone explain why all care home workers have been vaccinated first as this goes against the thoughts raised here? Why would a 30 year old care home worker be in the priority line to be jabbed? Doesn't make sense, if we use the same arguments against teachers? p.s. thank you to all the hard working care workers!
But can someone explain why all care home workers have been vaccinated first as this goes against the thoughts raised here? Why would a 30 year old care home worker be in the priority line to be jabbed? Doesn't make sense, if we use the same arguments against teachers? p.s. thank you to all the hard working care workers!
I think it's because they're likely to spread it to their highly vulnerable clientelle.
Because if (as anticipated but not proven) it does reduce transmission, then preventing transmission in hospitals and care homes is the place you want to do it. Cutting down transmission in schools, whilst it would be nice, doesn't save lives in the same way as directly cutting transmission in care homes.
Bit of a moot point though as most of the care home residents have now had their first doses, and reportedly many staff have chosen not to!
Good points raised, although the reducing of transmissions is a really weak argument however the consequences are huge if they infect the whole care home!
I wouldn't listen to the news too much, I can't expect it to be "many" staff that have refused. Look at France and their reactions to having the injections (only 30% would take it -v- 71% in UK (France latest data, UK based on 31st Dec) and that truly is bad with poor support from the government!
I wouldn't listen to the news too much, I can't expect it to be "many" staff that have refused. Look at France and their reactions to having the injections (only 30% would take it -v- 71% in UK (France latest data, UK based on 31st Dec) and that truly is bad with poor support from the government!
chris11256
Member
- Joined
- 27 Dec 2012
- Messages
- 741
My wife is a carer in a nursing home and her problem is getting the jab. Her home is constantly being told that there's no local capacity to vaccinate staff and that they're not a priority.
Feeling groggy for a little while after a vaccine isn't uncommon.
The NHS has the information you seek:
COVID-19 vaccine
NHS information about the COVID-19 vaccine, including what the vaccine helps protect against, who should have it and when, how to get it and side effects.
www.nhs.uk
It would foolish in the extreme, in my view, to be worried about taking the vaccine because you might have some mild side effects.
Millions of people have had it. 50000 people could have minor side effects and it would still only be 1% of people. Nobody has been reported to have ended hospitalised or dead that I'm aware of. It's almost certainly more dangerous crossing a couple of busy roads to get to the test centre.
Have you been reading mainstream social media by any chance? Plenty of posts about severe illness and cover ups, not one of them backed up by fact.
A good post here about how cause and effect can be confused, and then abused, about the effect of vaccination - https://respectfulinsolence.com/202...-cause-dr-gregory-michaels-fatal-case-of-itp/.
Quoting from the intro:
nlogax
Established Member
A colleague had his first vaccination on Saturday and spent most of Sunday afternoon and into Monday with a low grade fever / flu-like symptoms. As of today he's back on top form. I highly doubt that's the normal experience and if that's the worst that is happening, fine. Am all in for getting this jab as soon as it's offered to me.
- Status