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Uses for redundant Class 67s.

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DownSouth

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Time are changing. Some locos can keep up some can't. It happened countless times throughout railway history and its still happening now. What we need is to tell the EU were to shove their emmission regs so that FOC's can have free reign in choosing the next generation of faster and more capable freight locos.
Very true, though probably better expressed as a moratorium on the introduction of the better standards rather than complete abandonment.

General Electric still sell plenty of 7FDL engines and Progress Rail (the artist formerly known as EMD) still sell plenty of 645 and 710 engines (as drivetrain kits or as complete locomotives) to countries which do not require adherence to the EPA/EU Tier III standards, so it's not like the source of new-build engines will be drying up.
 
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ainsworth74

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Very true, though probably better expressed as a moratorium on the introduction of the better standards rather than complete abandonment.

Agreed. Emissions standards for rail vehicles are good but I think that we're getting to a point where it's potentially starting to hurt the industry for very little additional gain. Especially considering that rail emissions are a small source of transport emissions overall. More logical targets, to my mind, remain road vehicle engines and aircraft.
 

jimm

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I thought that but since FGW wiring is running late they aren't going to be available in time. GC however are moving to an all 180 fleet releasing their HST's to Scotrail. Scotrail will probably want shot of the buffer fitted HST's when the FGW examples arrive so that they have a uniform fleet.

And when exactly do you think that GC will be moving to an all-180 fleet? Not any time soon, it won't, because any transfers from FGW, above and beyond the possibility of one set moving to allow GC to carry out overhauls on its sets, will not be happening until GW electric services start running, so GC HSTs will not be freed up any earlier than FGW ones. And which is why Abellio is giving itself until December 2018 to have the full HST fleet in place in Scotland.
 
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fgwrich

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Don't shoot me for saying this, but after reading the Modern Railways article about the Class 68s and how clever they are, could one possibility for Angel Trains be to... Take the fleet or half of the fleet back in house and rebuild them? To fix some of the issues which have always 'plauged' the fleet, to regear them down to 100 max offering a better level of acceleration, and possibly fit a new internal CAT PU / Braking System? Obviously this solution wouldn't be cheap, but it would give Angel Trains a chance of some competition with a nearly new and largely improved loco against the cost of Beacon Rail's Class 68? For example, the 68 has a switch in the loco which tells it if it is operating a goods / freight train or a Passenger service and will adjust and optimise braking to suit. I think this switch also works for the PU control, making the 68 a more effective mixed traffic loco over the more standard 67 - something which seems to cause the fleet more faults than reliability.

I doubt much can be done in the design department though, they'll always look like upturned skips :lol:
 

Jamesb1974

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Haha, Im sure that I would indeed get differing opinions on the top speed of a tug. Im sure there are some sneaky, gutsy, or just plane brilliant drivers that push them above their paper top speed. Naughty drivers. HEHE.

Sneaky, gutsy or just plain unprofessional more like. We drivers get downloaded regularly by our managers. No one wants to lose their job by exceeding the speed limit (line or traction). No 'He He' about it, its unprofessional and dangerous .:roll:
 

507 001

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Don't shoot me for saying this, but after reading the Modern Railways article about the Class 68s and how clever they are, could one possibility for Angel Trains be to... Take the fleet or half of the fleet back in house and rebuild them? To fix some of the issues which have always 'plauged' the fleet, to regear them down to 100 max offering a better level of acceleration, and possibly fit a new internal CAT PU / Braking System? Obviously this solution wouldn't be cheap, but it would give Angel Trains a chance of some competition with a nearly new and largely improved loco against the cost of Beacon Rail's Class 68? For example, the 68 has a switch in the loco which tells it if it is operating a goods / freight train or a Passenger service and will adjust and optimise braking to suit. I think this switch also works for the PU control, making the 68 a more effective mixed traffic loco over the more standard 67 - something which seems to cause the fleet more faults than reliability.

I doubt much can be done in the design department though, they'll always look like upturned skips :lol:

I think you'll find most locos have a Freight/Passenger switch to adjust braking....
 

Rob d2

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Hmmm,
I'm not sure I agree with most of your opinions Paul.

Have a look at the ' rail' article about the super 60s...it was more than tinkering , it involved a full rebuild inc the engine block.
They spent upwards of £3m on them so I'd take issue that ,' as soon as something else comes along they'll be gone ' ( paraphrase).

I doubt it.

Also it wasn't ' short term ism ' to build a dedicated heavy freight hauler - this is what the rail freight sectors wanted, remember ? Steel, coal, oil all wanted a piece of this action. We had type 2/3/4 for less heavy loads, yes ?

And as for actual haulage capability, I guess you'd have to ask someone who drives them really...
 

Jamesb1974

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http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/the-resurgent-60s

Work on each locomotive includes a complete power unit overhaul, and fitting new pistons, cylinder liners and cylinders heads, crankshaft and camshaft.

The locomotives receive a full bogie refurbishment that also sees the traction motors undergo similar work. The electrical system is overhauled, including radiator fan motors and fuel pump motors, while the traction control gear is upgraded and fitted with the latest software. Cabs are refurbished, and reliability modifications carried out.

- See more at: http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/the-resurgent-60s#sthash.P0w77vzh.dpuf

More than a 'tinker'..

And as for actual haulage capability, I guess you'd have to ask someone who drives them really...

Obviously I can't speak for the likes of '59's', '68's' and '70's' as I don't sign them, but make no mistake a '60' in good fettle is an incredibly strong machine. Aside from the lower gearing and higher tractive effort figures (class 60 = 106,500 lbf class 66 = 91,900 lbf), they have other small advantages over a '66', which do stack up in their favour.

For example, on a '66' the sanding gear doesn't work above 10 mph. So you can only really use it to get started and keep you moving at up to 10 mph. On a '60', it is active all the times, so you can keep moving at a higher speed on a greasy rail and still apply sand. Why is that important? Well, even a small slip with a heavy train on a steep gradient will knock 3-5mph out of you. If you are doing 10 mph to start with, you're on the edge of getting into trouble. If you're doing 15mph, then you have that extra margin to keep the wheels turning.

On a '66', the power handle is notched, so you have to open it in stages and build the power up. You can't whack it open and let the computer sort out the wheel slip on each axle. On a '60' the power handle has one notch and the rest of the quadrant is infinitely variable, so you can do just that; Open it to maximum from a stand and let the electronics sort the rest. A '60' will out pull a '66' from a standing start every day of the week.

And from a driver's comfort point of view, the seat aside (air sprung on a '66' and not sprung at all on a '60'), the cabs are quieter and generally cleaner. The '60' has a transverse gangway behind each cab that keeps out 90% of the engine noise and dirt. In addition, the cabs seem to be better insulated and the windows fit better! Not as much wind noise on a '60' as a '66'. On a '66' you have to shout to make yourself heard if there is someone else in the cab and the vibrations can be appalling. A '66' also has different sized cabs, so the smaller of the two (number 2 cab) is pokey and small and has the added disadvantage that it sits right above one of the traction motors AND has the radiator group behind it. On a hot day with a loco being worked hard, the heat is stifling and opening the window just draws in more hot air! The heater is better in a '60' and the 'Super 60's' also have a nice little desktop style fan to blow grit in your eyes AND keep you cool :)
The cab is better thought out as well. No having to lean forwards off your seat to switch the wipers on or get up completely to turn the heater on.

Now, I don't want to go totally overboard on the class 60 as they do have their faults. 60 mph top speed, if you put the reverser into 'EO' (Engine only) too quickly, it drops the brake to zero and you have to wait for 2 minutes for the system to time out, the lights are crap, the Autosanders (measures wheel slip and adjusts power between the traction motors) can sometimes decided not to play and really f*** you up, the slow speed control only has three settings (0.5, 1 and 2.8 mph, whereas on a 66 you can set it to exactly what you want via the EM2000 computer interface) and certain parts, mainly electronic related seem to be hard to come by, but they are extremely good and strong engines that will pull a row of houses down. A '66' has its own part in things, which is working heavy freights at speeds up to 75mph, but for sheer low down grunt and pulling power, a '60' is the thing you want. That's why DBS don't use '66's' on the heaviest of trains. The Bootle branch from Liverpool Bulk terminal to Olive mount Jnc has some horrendous gradients. A '60' will shift 23 loaded HTA's at a total weight of over 2600 tons (in the dry) with no problem. A '66' on the same train gets short loaded to 20 or 21 because it can't cope. In the wet (pouring with rain, not just a drizzle) even a '60' gets short loaded simply due to the adverse gradients.

So, in my humble opinion the '60' gets my vote every day of the week. Unless you sign '59's', '68's' and '70's' and know otherwise! :D
 
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CosherB

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Jamesb1974: Thank you for a comprehensive, well thought out and well written response, based on fact and user experience. Others would do well to follow such traits!
 
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Ash Bridge

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Now, I don't want to go totally overboard on the class 60 as they do have their faults. 60 mph top speed, if you put the reverser into 'EO' (Engine only) too quickly, it drops the brake to zero and you have to wait for 2 minutes for the system to time out, the lights are crap, the radar sensor (measures speed over the ground to accurately sort out wheel slip/power application) can sometimes decided not to play and really f*** you up, the slow speed control only has three settings (0.5, 1 and 2.8 mph, whereas on a 66 you can set it exactly what you want via the EM2000 computer interface) and certain parts, mainly electronic related seem to be hard to come by, but they are extremely good and strong engines that will pull a row of houses down. A '66' has its own part in things, which is working heavy freights at speeds up to 75mph, but for sheer low down grunt and pulling power, a '60' is the thing you want. That's why DBS don't use '66's' on the heaviest of trains. The Bootle branch from Liverpool Bulk terminal to Olive mount Jnc has some horrendous gradients. A '60' will shift 23 loaded HTA's at a total weight of over 2600 tons (in the dry) with no problem. A '66' on the same train gets short loaded to 20 or 21 because it can't cope. In the wet (pouring with rain, not just a drizzle) even a '60' gets short loaded simply due to the adverse gradients.

So, in my humble opinion the '60' gets my vote every day of the week. Unless you sign '59's', '68's' and '70's' and know otherwise! :D

A few years back did not EWS send a 59 to Liverpool to trial it on the Bootle branch working these very trains, seem to recall the end result was that the 60 was proved to be just superior, unless anyone knows otherwise.
 

Jamesb1974

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A few years back did not EWS send a 59 to Liverpool to trial it on the Bootle branch working these very trains, seem to recall the end result was that the 60 was proved to be just superior, unless anyone knows otherwise.

Before my time, but I have heard the tale from people who were involved and its confirms what you say.
 

Ash Bridge

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Before my time, but I have heard the tale from people who were involved and its confirms what you say.

Also meant to add, as mentioned above, thanks for the detailed information from the sharp end (so to speak)it's very much appreciated by us armchair experts :)
 

Greybeard33

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The Northern ITT requires the successful bidder to purchase at least 120 newly-built carriages. These have to be self-powered, unless the Bidder intends for them to be hauled by a locomotive.

New DMUs with Stage IIIB compliant engines would be very expensive. If instead the bidder opts to procure 120 new unpowered carriages and form them into, say, 4-car sets, 30 100mph locos (which are not required to be newly-built) would be needed to haul them....
 

RichmondCommu

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Jamesb1974: Thank you for a comprehensive, well thought out and well written response, based on fact and user experience. Others would do well to follow such traits!

Indeed one of the most interesting and informative posts I've ever read on here. Keep 'em coming!
 

CosherB

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I just cannot imagine why there would be a sudden turn away from DMU's and back to LHCS. Any where would you find 30 such existing locos?
 

Chris125

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I just cannot imagine why there would be a sudden turn away from DMU's and back to LHCS. Any where would you find 30 such existing locos?

With the 67 fleet facing an under-used future it's not hard to imagine them being offered at a very competitive rate to bidders - with the cost per vehicle of a relatively small, perhaps one-off DMU order likely to be high it could well prove attractive to a department facing further deep cuts.

Chris
 

IanXC

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And when exactly do you think that GC will be moving to an all-180 fleet? Not any time soon, it won't, because any transfers from FGW, above and beyond the possibility of one set moving to allow GC to carry out overhauls on its sets, will not be happening until GW electric services start running, so GC HSTs will not be freed up any earlier than FGW ones. And which is why Abellio is giving itself until December 2018 to have the full HST fleet in place in Scotland.

Haven't Grand Central signed leases starting 2017?

Presumably if electrification isnt complete at that point they can used IEP bimodes to plug the gap.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106812
 

ChiefPlanner

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With the 67 fleet facing an under-used future it's not hard to imagine them being offered at a very competitive rate to bidders - with the cost per vehicle of a relatively small, perhaps one-off DMU order likely to be high it could well prove attractive to a department facing further deep cuts.

Chris

Track Access costs per mile for 67's are very high .....
 

jimm

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Haven't Grand Central signed leases starting 2017?

Presumably if electrification isnt complete at that point they can used IEP bimodes to plug the gap.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106812

Yes, 2017 was when I had in mind but the post I was referring to seemed to suggest that GC would have an all-180 fleet in no time, allowing Scotrail to get its hands on ex-GC HSTs well ahead of any FGW HSTs. Whereas GC will have to wait until a point in time when the start of Class 800 operation allows FGW to release both the 180s and some HSTs - which will head north of the border.

I suspect the GC HSTs are among the ones least likely to be picked for Scotrail, along with the Landore-based Class 43s fitted with GEC traction motors.
 

Greybeard33

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Track Access costs per mile for 67's are very high .....
The variable track usage charge for a 67 in passenger service is £0.58 per vehicle mile. On the other hand, Table 5 in the Rolling Stock Strategy Steering Group report estimates that the capital lease cost of a new DMU will be £1.43 per vehicle mile and the maintenance cost £0.80, adding up to £6.69 per train mile for a 3-car unit, plus track access and fuel costs. So track access costs might not be a show-stopper for LHCS.
 

Rob d2

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Thanks James,
I was hoping a driver might be along to explain.
Makes me wonder why Dbs sold some to colas then really, I'd have thought they'd hang onto all of them just in case.

Or maybe colas were desperate for locos and paid alllllootttttt.....
 

Jamesb1974

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Makes me wonder why Dbs sold some to colas then really, I'd have thought they'd hang onto all of them just in case.

Or maybe colas were desperate for locos and paid alllllootttttt.....

Don't forget, DBS have got 100 of the things and they only sold 10. I'd imagine the money released from the sale and maintenance contracts was lucrative enough to make it worthwhile doing!
 

al.currie93

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I just cannot imagine why there would be a sudden turn away from DMU's and back to LHCS. Any where would you find 30 such existing locos?

The key advantages of LHCS are simplicity, cost and versatility... putting compliant engines into multiple units is now getting seriously complicated and expensive to the point that these advantages of locomotives and coaches may well outweigh the benefits of multiple units - the key one being acceleration. The versatility of using locomotives that already exist also helps.

It makes sense to me :)
 

TheGrew

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TBH if and when 67s are no longer on Thunderbird duties I can see them being sold abroad. I imagine an Eastern European country might well be interested in running them LHCS.
 

Jamesb1974

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TBH if and when 67s are no longer on Thunderbird duties I can see them being sold abroad. I imagine an Eastern European country might well be interested in running them LHCS.

Quite possibly. Don't forget that none of these engines are actually owned by the companies that use them. They are all leased from Angel Trains, one of the ROSCOs. When the likes of DBS decide they have no future use for them, its up to the owner to do what they want with them. Offer them for re-leasing to other TOCs or FOCs or flog them on elsewhere.
 

Brian Aylott

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Quite possibly. Don't forget that none of these engines are actually owned by the companies that use them. They are all leased from Angel Trains, one of the ROSCOs. When the likes of DBS decide they have no future use for them, its up to the owner to do what they want with them. Offer them for re-leasing to other TOCs or FOCs or flog them on elsewhere.

I am not aware on the specific leasing agreement for DBS 66s and 67s but I am given to understand that there were recent negotiations for DBS to buy the fleets
Brian
 

RichmondCommu

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The key advantages of LHCS are simplicity, cost and versatility... putting compliant engines into multiple units is now getting seriously complicated and expensive to the point that these advantages of locomotives and coaches may well outweigh the benefits of multiple units - the key one being acceleration. The versatility of using locomotives that already exist also helps.

It makes sense to me :)

Are you saying that DMU's are not versatile? I would suggest that acceleration is everything especially in terms of journey times and with regard to local stopping services getting out of the way of a train that has little or no intermediate stops.
 
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