Up and Down directions

[zwk500]

Is it the case that London Overground lines continue to use up and down, or has TfL applied the Underground style of designating lines according to cardinal compass points (i.e. northbound, southbound, etc)? Presumably there are locations where the two systems are both applied, sometimes literally side by side, on lines north of Marylebone and Baker Street being one example.

An added twist to the changeover highlighted by zwk500!

From an infrastructure perspective the Overground lines are referred to as Up and Down, largely because it's NR infrastructure for the main part. I believe some Overground services are advertised as Eastbound/Westbound or Northbound/Southbound.

Some Overground lines change from Up to Down along the way, like the North London Line: all directions are Up to Camden road West Jn, except the West london Line, which is Up to London Victoria

The Crossrail Core is TfL infrastructure, and uses eastbound/westbound.

 

[Skiddaw]

I can never quite get to grips with the WCML being 'Up' to London and 'Down' to Glasgow. I can see the logic but I can't think of 'down South' as being 'up'!

 

[zwk500]

I can never quite get to grips with the WCML being 'Up' to London and 'Down' to Glasgow. I can see the logic but I can't think of 'down South' as being 'up'!

But it's quite common to refer to going 'up to London' regardless of whether that is north, south, east or West in actuality.
Although I did have an occassion when I was able to visit Rugby SCC while working at MK, and the Shift manager greeted my group saying 'ah so you've come up from MK today, well 'down', I suppose I should say.'

The bit I find harder to get my head around, even after working in the rail industry for several years, is that as you go 'down' the line, the mileage goes up! (generally)

 

[izvor]

I think Deal was originally a changeover point - as the first line there went to London via Minster - but is presumably now "up" all the way from Ramsgate? (which also has up/down changeover at some point on the loop, as does Dover Priory with up trains heading in both directions.)

 

[Dstock7080]

Presumably there are locations where the two systems are both applied, sometimes literally side by side, on lines north of Marylebone and Baker Street being one example.

Indeed, as with the District/c2c alongside, east/west and up/down.
Although for operational purposes East Putney-Wimbledon, Turnham Green-Richmond, Queens Park-Harrow the NR convention is only used. Harrow-on-the-Hill-Amersham being north/south LU.

 

[Andy873]

On the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway it was always up to Manchester Victoria, the location of the company HQ.

Almost, yes that's correct, but certainly from the 1880's to around the early 1920's beyond Blackburn going east it was Up to Burnley (away from Manchester) and Down to Blackburn from East Lancashire. I was met with fierce resistance to this but OS town maps of Burnley, Nelson and Colne plus L&Y WTT's prove otherwise.

Because of this, I've stopped calling platforms as Up & Down, and now refer to them as the Burnley bound platforms and the Blackburn bound platforms. This hangover seems to come from the old East Lancashire Railway.

But generally agree with Manchester (for the L&Y) was in the Up direction. It's a divisive topic as I found out!

 

[zwk500]

But generally agree with Manchester (for the L&Y) was in the Up direction. It's a divisive topic as I found out!

There's been several threads on the topic!

 

[SargeNpton]

This view at Hebden Bridge in 2003 amused and confused me (picture shows sign pointing to the subway "To The Up Trains").

How are passengers supposed to know which direction is up?

 

[Rescars]

By definition, there will be a swap between up and down on at least one side of a triangle. For example, a train going from Great Malvern to Birmingham used to be up to Worcester, up Droitwich on the triangle between what was Rainbow Hill Junction and Tunnel Junction and then down to Droitwich and Birmingham. Trying to make logical sense of all this is just one of life's little ups and downs!

 

[ThirteenArches]

Traditionally you go up to University, and if you fail, you are sent down. So a student from south of Oxford would go up on the down line, and go down (in disgrace) on the up line.

As Spooner (the Oxford academic Rev Archibald, not Charles Easton of the F(f)estiniog) is supposed to have said,

"You have hissed all my mystery lessons, and tasted three worms. You will leave by the next town drain".

 

[LickeyIncliner]

By definition, there will be a swap between up and down on at least one side of a triangle. For example, a train going from Great Malvern to Birmingham used to be up to Worcester, up Droitwich on the triangle between what was Rainbow Hill Junction and Tunnel Junction and then down to Droitwich and Birmingham. Trying to make logical sense of all this is just one of life's little ups and downs!

Would "down to Droitwich and Birmingham" be the end of the story? If going to New Street, the train would join the Up Midland line (towards Derby) at Stoke Works junction. If going to Snow Hill, surely coming into Snow Hill from the west would be up (towards Paddington?)

(I appreciate that this is getting away from your point about triangles - though actually Paddington - Worcester - Snow Hill - Paddington is another triangle!)

 

[Rescars]

Would "down to Droitwich and Birmingham" be the end of the story? If going to New Street, the train would join the Up Midland line (towards Derby) at Stoke Works junction. If going to Snow Hill, surely coming into Snow Hill from the west would be up (towards Paddington?)

(I appreciate that this is getting away from your point about triangles - though actually Paddington - Worcester - Snow Hill - Paddington is another triangle!)

Presumably not! Maybe Maindee would make for an easier example!

 

[TPO]

Weren't the South Wales valleys "up" away from Cardiff, Newport etc.? Sure I read that somewhere.

Yes, the convention is reversed for the lines from Cardiff to Rhymney, Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert. Convention is maintained for the Barry/ Vale of Glamorgan line though.

It's the geography, its uphill all the way to the tops of the Valleys.

TPO

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, the convention is reversed for the lines from Cardiff to Rhymney, Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert. Convention is maintained for the Barry/ Vale of Glamorgan line though.

It's the geography, its uphill all the way to the tops of the Valleys.

TPO

It also lines up with the South Wales Main Line when passing through Central.

 

[davetheguard]

How are passengers supposed to know which direction is up?

Quite. That's exactly why there is a sign to tell them! Don't forget that this signage dates from an era when trains were shown in public timetables as "up trains" or "down trains".

 

[Iron_Duke]

By definition, there will be a swap between up and down on at least one side of a triangle. For example, a train going from Great Malvern to Birmingham used to be up to Worcester, up Droitwich on the triangle between what was Rainbow Hill Junction and Tunnel Junction and then down to Droitwich and Birmingham. Trying to make logical sense of all this is just one of life's little ups and downs!

And if that train went to Birmingham via Stoke Works it would rejoin the Up line there. The Midland Railway's influence in the Western used to cause much confusion (and probably still does) where the Up line from Westerleigh Junction to Birmingham takes trains north and the Down line heads south.

 

[edwin_m]

And if that train went to Birmingham via Stoke Works it would rejoin the Up line there. The Midland Railway's influence in the Western used to cause much confusion (and probably still does) where the Up line from Westerleigh Junction to Birmingham takes trains north and the Down line heads south.

And between Standish Junction and Cheltenham where each had two tracks of what was essentially a four-track railway, at one time I believe Up was southbound on the GWR and northbound on the Midland.

 

[midland1]

And if that train went to Birmingham via Stoke Works it would rejoin the Up line there. The Midland Railway's influence in the Western used to cause much confusion (and probably still does) where the Up line from Westerleigh Junction to Birmingham takes trains north and the Down line heads south.

The Bristol, birmingham, Derby route was up to Derby being the Midland HQ. With Derby soon to be the HQ of Great British Railways perhaps all line over the country should be up to Derby, the Midland wins at last

 

[Pigeon]

And if that train went to Birmingham via Stoke Works it would rejoin the Up line there. The Midland Railway's influence in the Western used to cause much confusion (and probably still does) where the Up line from Westerleigh Junction to Birmingham takes trains north

...said trains having approached the junction heading in an easterleigh direction.

 

[edwin_m]

The Bristol, birmingham, Derby route was up to Derby being the Midland HQ. With Derby soon to be the HQ of Great British Railways perhaps all line over the country should be up to Derby, the Midland wins at last

I don't think that was the reason, otherwise St Pancras to Derby would also be Up, which it is not.

I suspect the Up and Down on Derby-Bristol follows from the Midland's mileposting policy, where every branch starting at a trailing junction from the point of view of a train travelling from London was miled from a zero at the junction (facing branches continued the mileage through the junction). Thus the entire route is measured from a zero at the south end of Derby station. This combines with the almost universal practice of the direction of increasing mileage being Down.