Up and Down directions

[a_c_skinner]

A friend has asked me why UP is towards London and DOWN to Edinburgh. I gave him the standard explanation that UP was towards the company HQ. I added this meant on the Midland UP was towards Derby. A quick look at the rail atlas says this is not the case at present as on the MML UP is towards London (though pretty much all the rest is UP towards Derby. Am I right? Did the MML change or was it always thus? Aside from lines to London are there rules? For eg towards Chester seems always UP

 

[341o2]

As far as the railways were concerned UP was always towards London, and DOWN away from the capital regardless of the direction te train was travelling according to the compass

 

[LickeyIncliner]

As far as the railways were concerned UP was always towards London, and DOWN away from the capital regardless of the direction te train was travelling according to the compass

See also other discussions e.g. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ups-and-downs.290255/

 

[stuving]

The association of "up" and "high" with importance, whether social, political, legal, or whatever, is an old one - long predating the railways. So a dictionary definition of "up" includes "towards a center (such as a capital, great town or city, or university)" as one of its basic meanings.

 

[contrex]

A friend has asked me why UP is towards London and DOWN to Edinburgh. I gave him the standard explanation that UP was towards the company HQ. I added this meant on the Midland UP was towards Derby. A quick look at the rail atlas says this is not the case at present as on the MML UP is towards London (though pretty much all the rest is UP towards Derby. Am I right? Did the MML change or was it always thus? Aside from lines to London are there rules? For eg towards Chester seems always UP

The Midland Railway Appendix No. 20 (1899) shows North Junction, Wigston to St. Pancras as "Up" and St. Pancras to North Junction, Wigston as "Down". So I guess in that case at least, London trumped Derby.

See the 1899 MR table of Up and Down designations for lines at the link below

As it is convenient in the issue of Instructions respecting Signal and Working Arrangements, to distinguish the different Lines of Rails by the terms UP and DOWN, and very essential that no ambiguity or misunderstanding should exist on the subject, the following information is given for the guidance of the Co.'s Servants.

The Midland Railway Study Centre

www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk

 

[Taunton]

Long predates the railway. Stagecoaches towards London were "Up", and leaving there were "Down".

 

[Trackman]

The association of "up" and "high" with importance, whether social, political, legal, or whatever, is an old one - long predating the railways. So a dictionary definition of "up" includes "towards a center (such as a capital, great town or city, or university)" as one of its basic meanings.

I have a friend in Manchester who says he is going up to London, says he gets told off for it as it's down to London as that is the direction. He says a discussion follows afterwards. Think he was a solicitor at one time.

 

[contrex]

I have a friend in Manchester who says he is going up to London, says he gets told off for it as it's down to London as that is the direction. He says a discussion follows afterwards. Think he was a solicitor at one time.

I know folk who try to 'correct' me about silly stuff like that, people who mistake arbitrary conventions for absolute laws. I think they do it to exert dominance due to fragile egos. I try to avoid them once I have their measure.

 

[izvor]

I know folk who try to 'correct' me about silly stuff like that, people who mistake arbitrary conventions for absolute laws. I think they do it to exert dominance due to fragile egos. I try to avoid them once I have their measure.

That's why you're avoiding me!

 

[stuving]

I have a friend in Manchester who says he is going up to London, says he gets told off for it as it's down to London as that is the direction. He says a discussion follows afterwards. Think he was a solicitor at one time.

Of course up/down have other meanings (in any dictionary) such as to higher/lower altitude, or northward/southward. So when talking about a particular trip, you are likely to pick whatever matches the reason for going - business that only happens in London would favour the up=to London meaning.

A whole railway has different reasons for choosing a naming convention. The first lines were the main ones to/from London, where that was important operationally, so using it there (i.e. copying stagecoach terminology) would be quite natural.

Was a formal decision ever taken to apply it elsewhere as a standard label? I suspect there were several management decisions, in lots of railways, but the choice was whether to go with the emerging general practice or try to think up an alternative.

 

[Rail Ranger]

On the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway it was always up to Manchester Victoria, the location of the company HQ.

 

[edwin_m]

On the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway it was always up to Manchester Victoria, the location of the company HQ.

This also lined up with the designation of the LNWR in particular at the major places they met, such as Manchester Victoria/Exchange, Preston and Stalybridge. Since Up and Down were probably designated by the original companies that later amalgamated to form the L&Y, then I think that is the more likely reason.

 

[zwk500]

Was the Great Central originally Up to Manchester Central? Mileages are measured from there but I think at least nowadays it's Up to Marylebone (for the bits still open)

 

[Rescars]

There are some odd anomalies, especially near conurbations away from London. For example, if I am reading Quail maps correctly, trains travelling towards Glasgow from the south west are going down if they start from Dumfries, but up if they start from Ayr.

 

[zwk500]

As far as the railways were concerned UP was always towards London, and DOWN away from the capital regardless of the direction te train was travelling according to the compass

Although the nature of how the network developed means that in some instances Up is not the most direct route to London. For example, trains from Portsmouth towards Fareham are travelling UP despite traveling 'away' from London the route via Haslemere being quicker and more direct), because the original route to London was via Fareham and Eastleigh for the London-Southampton Main Line.

However in some cases railways /did/ change Up and Down when opening new lines, as between Dr Days Jn and Filton Abbey Wood in Bristol, where the direct route via Badminton opened later so mileage on the Filton Bank is measured from Paddington via Bath, but Down is from Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads (which also lines up with the vertical direction of the line, as it happens).

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

There are some odd anomalies, especially near conurbations away from London. For example, if I am reading Quail maps correctly, trains travelling towards Glasgow from the south west are going down if they start from Dumfries, but up if they start from Ayr.

Sort of makes sense, in that generally its up towards Glasgow, but on the Dumfries line it is logically up towards Carlisle and thence London. Does the GSWML flip from up to down somewhere?

 

[zwk500]

Sort of makes sense, in that generally its up towards Glasgow, but on the Dumfries line it is logically up towards Carlisle and thence London. Does the GSWML flip from up to down somewhere?

Scotland is generally Down to Glasgow, Up being to London or Edinburgh. The Ayr lines are Up to Glasgow Central, but the GSWR/WCML lines are Up from Glasgow Central to Carlisle.

The WCML is Down from Carlisle to Glasgow Central, Perth via Mossend, and Haymarket. The ECML is down from Berwick to Edinburgh. The lines heading west/north from Edinburgh are Down from Edinburgh (including the Shotts line after Midcalder).

 

[Lemmy282]

Of course there are places where up and down become confusing.
The newly remodelled station at Dore and Totley has had an additional platform installed on the line from Sheffield to Manchester. This is the DOWN Manchester platform for trains from Sheffield although it come off a junction on the UP Sheffield to London line. Similarly the existing UP Manchester platform has services from Manchester to Sheffield and joins the DOWN London to Sheffield line!

 

[edwin_m]

Of course there are places where up and down become confusing.
The newly remodelled station at Dore and Totley has had an additional platform installed on the line from Sheffield to Manchester. This is the DOWN Manchester platform for trains from Sheffield although it come off a junction on the UP Sheffield to London line. Similarly the existing UP Manchester platform has services from Manchester to Sheffield and joins the DOWN London to Sheffield line!

It's geometrically inevitable that that happens somewhere around any triangular junction, and it also happens elsewhere for various reasons. The route via Dore South Curve is continuously Down towards the Hope Valley, and all Hope Valley journeys continue as Down when it joins the Buxton line.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Ayr lines are Up to Glasgow Central,

IIRC the designation of the Ayrshire lines was, most unusually, reversed with Down becoming Up and vice versa; Possibly on electrification and resignalling from Paisley SC in 1986?

 

[Pigeon]

The Midland Railway Appendix No. 20 (1899) shows North Junction, Wigston to St. Pancras as "Up" and St. Pancras to North Junction, Wigston as "Down". So I guess in that case at least, London trumped Derby.

The Midland did have up towards Derby in earlier years; after all they didn't go to London, but they did have Derby as a natural focal point of their constituent lines. They changed it after opening one of their two principal southward extensions, I think Bedford to St Pancras, but I can't say it wasn't Leicester to Hitchin. I believe there are still some discontinuities in the mileposts relating to this change.

 

[edwin_m]

The Midland did have up towards Derby in earlier years; after all they didn't go to London, but they did have Derby as a natural focal point of their constituent lines. They changed it after opening one of their two principal southward extensions, I think Bedford to St Pancras, but I can't say it wasn't Leicester to Hitchin. I believe there are still some discontinuities in the mileposts relating to this change.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[izvor]

Weren't the South Wales valleys "up" away from Cardiff, Newport etc.? Sure I read that somewhere.

 

[Pigeon]

Do you have a source for this?

I'll try and remember where I came across it.

 

[Rescars]

Changing designations from down to up and vice versa must be a hugely expensive exercise - relabelling equipment and signage, changing timetables, sectional appendices and all sorts of other documents, etc, etc and that's before the costs of staff training and coping with understandable errors and confusion whilst everyone gets used to the changeover.

 

[zwk500]

Changing designations from down to up and vice versa must be a hugely expensive exercise - relabelling equipment and signage, changing timetables, sectional appendices and all sorts of other documents, etc, etc and that's before the costs of staff training and coping with understandable errors and confusion whilst everyone gets used to the changeover.

Indeed, hence why it almost never happens any more. There are even lines where Up and Down reverse halfway along where a historic junction has closed.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, hence why it almost never happens any more. There are even lines where Up and Down reverse halfway along where a historic junction has closed.

One unusual recent exception was Bletchley to Oxford, originally Down in that direction reflecting its origin as a LNWR branch with a south to west curve at Bletchley. Now it is Up, meaning no change of designation at Oxford or Bletchley although there is one for trains off the Chiltern line at Bicester. Considering the route was pretty rebuilt from the ground up, most of the things that would normally have to change for this exercise were already being done for other reasons.

 

[Llanigraham]

Indeed, hence why it almost never happens any more. There are even lines where Up and Down reverse halfway along where a historic junction has closed.

That applies along the Marches line, with the change, if I remember correctly at Hereford. North of there was UP to Shrewsbury, but below was UP to Newport.
And I'm sure I was told it was not always UP to London but UP to the railway's headquarter's.

 

[zwk500]

That applies along the Marches line, with the change, if I remember correctly at Hereford. North of there was UP to Shrewsbury, but below was UP to Newport.

If that was the case, it's changed now. Marches Line is UP from Newport to Shrewsbury throughout. Interestingly the single line Maindee curve is Up towards Hereford, rather than Down towards the main line to London.

And I'm sure I was told it was not always UP to London but UP to the railway's headquarter's.

It's a better guide, although in this instance a train travelling on the Historic GWR lines from London Paddington to Cardiff via Birmingham Snow Hill, Wolverhampton, the avoiding curve at Shrewsbury, and Hereford would be on the Down Lines all the way.
The 'main' direction through Shrewsbury is Down from Wolverhampton to Crewe/Chester. The curve towards the Marches takes the down line, presumably as it would have been the shortest route to London for the Cambrian lines.

As it happens that also means that for Hereford and the heart of wales the directions are consistent with their other adjoining routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2026 ==

One unusual recent exception was Bletchley to Oxford, originally Down in that direction reflecting its origin as a LNWR branch with a south to west curve at Bletchley. Now it is Up, meaning no change of designation at Oxford or Bletchley although there is one for trains off the Chiltern line at Bicester. Considering the route was pretty rebuilt from the ground up, most of the things that would normally have to change for this exercise were already being done for other reasons.

Yes, and now means there's another route where the mileages increase in the Up direction, rather than the normal down.

 

[Rescars]

Is it the case that London Overground lines continue to use up and down, or has TfL applied the Underground style of designating lines according to cardinal compass points (i.e. northbound, southbound, etc)? Presumably there are locations where the two systems are both applied, sometimes literally side by side, on lines north of Marylebone and Baker Street being one example.

Was the Great Central originally Up to Manchester Central? Mileages are measured from there but I think at least nowadays it's Up to Marylebone (for the bits still open)

An added twist to the changeover highlighted by zwk500!