Units freed up and future uses

[northwichcat]

Overall how many units will be freed up by new orders and which have likely destinations?

AFAIK there's the following

New TPE Scottish EMUs:
Free up 185s.

Desiro City:
Free up 319s for FGW to replaces 165/6s
Free up 319s for TPE to replace 185s and Northern to replace Pacer/Sprinters.
Other EMUs?

Released 185s
To be utilised on other TPE services for extra capacity.

Released Pacers/Sprinters
To be utilised on other Northern services for extra capacity.

Released 165/6s
Likely to replace FGW 158s.

Released FGW 158s
Likely to be used for extra capacity for FGW and possibly 143 replacement.

Scottish DMUs?

EMUs released as a result of Crossrail?

 

[sonic2009]

IMO here's what i would do :

Class 165/166 to go on to PMH - CDF Services. Freeing Up 158s for Other Services. Give Some to Northern.

Class 315 given to Northern from the Crossrail Cascade.

Ideally i'd love to see new build class 380 for TPE running Manchester - Scotland

Class 319 to run With Northern and FTPE. FTPE use them on Possibly Blackpool North - Manchester Airport if ever the wires get there.

 

[northwichcat]

Class 315 given to Northern from the Crossrail Cascade.

Given the 507s and 508s are on their last legs now and Crossrail is quite a few years off I imagine the 315s will only be suitable for the scrap heap by the time they are replaced.

 

[jopsuk]

Some would argue they're only suitable for scrap now

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't there are any formal EMU cascade suggestions dependent on Crossrail - all the indications so far are that the 315s on the Shenfield line will go for scrap.

Slightly different situation on the GW, because the Turbos are somewhat younger...

 

[anthony263]

I would say the class 165/166 's have a lot of life in them yet and could go for another 20-25 years depending on how well they are looked after.

I agree about the class 315's the ones i have travelled on certainly could do with going to be scrapped, same with the class 508's and some of the class 313's the great northern class 313's could go for another few years although i think these should be reaplced by 2020.

I must admit it will be strange seing class 165/166's around Bristol and possibly Cardiff as for someone on this forum suggesting their use on the severn beach branch will be able to be cleared as there are some very tight curves on that line, hopefully however some maybe surplus which could be used to provide new service on other rrutes if theyr are re-opened perhaps portishead and henbury?

As for the class 158's maybe some could be kept by FGW but some could be sent to Northern and ATW

 

[northwichcat]

As for the class 158's maybe some could be kept by FGW but some could be sent to Northern and ATW

I'd suggest after the 158s are released that the 143s have a common operator either ATW or FGW. Then the ATW 142s are sent to Northern with Northern then picking the 15 worst 142s to be scrapped. The 158s released by FGW would indirectly cover the 15x142s at ATW.

 

[Minstral25]

Overall how many units will be freed up by new orders and which have likely destinations?

AFAIK there's the following


Desiro City:
Free up 319s for FGW to replaces 165/6s
Free up 319s for TPE to replace 185s and Northern to replace Pacer/Sprinters.
Other EMUs?

None of the 319's will not likely become available until December 2017 at the earliest as deliveries of the Desiro City's start in 2015 (and these will need testing on the route first) through to final delivery in 2018.

I wonder how this fits with Electrification Timetables of GW and in the North West (I gather the North West has already been put back 3 years)

I assume that the 26 377's will be released first back to Southern (that is the 23 377/5 and the 3 units about to be transferred to FCC for the 12 Coach trains this December). Southern are desperately short of units now and with the London Bridge blockade coming up in this period will need much more stock

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder how this fits with Electrification Timetables of GW and in the North West (I gather the North West has already been put back 3 years)

Has it? From I've heard all preliminary work on Liverpool-Manchester is complete and Manchester to Newton-le-Willows will be ready for EMUs in early 2013, with the whole line ready for EMUs by the end of 2014.

I'm sure a recent announcement said that all North West projects would be complete by 2017, with there being 3 projects:
Liverpool to Manchester by 2014
Preston to Blackpool by 2015
Manchester to Preston via Bolton by 2017.

Southern are desperately short of units now and with the London Bridge blockade coming up in this period will need much more stock

Don't forget the 319 cascade is in place of 250 additional new diesel vehicles for Northern and TPE to ease overcrowding, which would have already been delivered had the order gone ahead.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes the Northwest electrification has actually been accelerated from a 2017 finish to a 2016 finish. Apart from the TPE 350's for Scotland services the first useful electrified route will be Manchester-Liverpool in 2014 but the rolling stock isnt due to start arriving from 2015 at earliest to 2017 at latest and is due for a time consuming major refurbishment as well.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't forget the 319 cascade is in place of 250 additional new diesel vehicles for Northern and TPE to ease overcrowding, which would have already been delivered had the order gone ahead.

Wasn't that cancelled proposal for 202 DMU vehicles for Northern, TPE and FGW though? Academic now that it's completley cancelled of course...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... and with the London Bridge blockade coming up in this period will need much more stock

That's completely illogical, why would SN need more stock to operate a reduced service?

The phasing of the work Network Rail has come up with reduces the peak terminating capacity from 27 tph to 24 tph between 2013 and 2015. NR reckon that by strengthening the remaining services using the released stock there will be hardly any change to overall capacity.

Phases 2 and 3, 2015 onwards, rebuild the through platforms in various stages from South to North and are not planned to affect the terminal bays, and SN's 24 tph.

 

[Schnellzug]

165/166s to replace 158s? Would that really be a step forward? They're not much newer, and designed for much shorter journies. Hopefully that's another idea that'll be quietly forgotten about, if it ever was a serious plan.

180s to replace 158s, now, that might be something...

 

[robertbishop]

165/166s to replace 158s? Would that really be a step forward? They're not much newer, and designed for much shorter journies. Hopefully that's another idea that'll be quietly forgotten about, if it ever was a serious plan.

I agree. 166s are doing journeys like Basingstoke-Reading and Slough-Windsor, you can't put them on a cross-country journey like Cardiff-Portsmouth. I'd like a 180, if it has to change. Other suitable trains would be 175s or 170s, and of course 158s.

 

[northwichcat]

Wasn't that cancelled proposal for 202 DMU vehicles for Northern, TPE and FGW though? Academic now that it's completley cancelled of course...

It may be academic but it is useful in identifying how many EMU vehicles should be additional carriages and how many should be replacement carriages, considering the Thameslink cascade directly replaced the new orders.

The tender specified:

between 200 and 250 new DMU vehicles. All the new DMU vehicles are expected to be in passenger service by 2012 with up to 100 additional DMU vehicles, in batches to be specified in the ITT

It was identified that Northern would need 158 extra diesel carriages, TPE would need 42 and FGW would need 52.

However, that was written before Northern's franchise was revised to include a Nottingham extension of a Sheffield service, a Stoke extension of the Macclesfield service, an additional Manchester Airport stopping service and a Preston extension of the Hazel Grove service, which required around another 25 carriages and more intensive diagrams. (Some of those changes were due to the TPE Windermere service being cut back to a shuttle service to release stock to replace Voyagers on Manchester-Scotland.)

Northern were also due to get 24 additional EMU vehicles until the Yorkshire RUS identified another 20 are needed for Yorkshire (the additional 20 Northern are now getting the form of cascaded 322s.)

It's also worth remembering that the 12 Pacers that went to FGW were supposed to have been withdrawn from service, not making the additional capacity.

What's slightly interesting is that the original plan was for the LO 150s and some of the LM 150/1s were to go to Northern and most of the LM 150/2s were to go to FGW, which seems to have been switched around in part.

 

[sonic2009]

165/166s to replace 158s? Would that really be a step forward? They're not much newer, and designed for much shorter journies. Hopefully that's another idea that'll be quietly forgotten about, if it ever was a serious plan.

I agree. 166s are doing journeys like Basingstoke-Reading and Slough-Windsor, you can't put them on a cross-country journey like Cardiff-Portsmouth. I'd like a 180, if it has to change. Other suitable trains would be 175s or 170s, and of course 158s.

A suitable unit for Cardiff - Portsmouth would be something like a 180. But newer maybe a diesel version of a 395?

 

[northwichcat]

I agree. 166s are doing journeys like Basingstoke-Reading and Slough-Windsor, you can't put them on a cross-country journey like Cardiff-Portsmouth. I'd like a 180, if it has to change. Other suitable trains would be 175s or 170s, and of course 158s.

Chiltern use 166s on longer routes. If the 16xs were fitted with the same/similar seating to the FGW HSTs would you still object?

 

[tbtc]

Chiltern use 166s on longer routes. If the 16xs were fitted with the same/similar seating to the FGW HSTs would you still object?

I didn't realise Chiltern had any 166s...

 

[swt_passenger]

A suitable unit for Cardiff - Portsmouth would be something like a 180. But newer maybe a diesel version of a 395?

It isn't a very fast route though. 180s have always been considered overkill when it has come up for discussion in the past.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It may be academic but it is useful in identifying how many EMU vehicles should be additional carriages and how many should be replacement carriages, considering the Thameslink cascade directly replaced the new orders.

The tender specified:

between 200 and 250 new DMU vehicles. All the new DMU vehicles are expected to be in passenger service by 2012 with up to 100 additional DMU vehicles, in batches to be specified in the ITT

Nevertheless the ITT, and various other documents available on the DfT website all have the reduced quantity of 202 vehicles, made up as follows:

8 x 4-car units
7 x 3-car units
11 x 4-car units
12 x 3 car units
23 x 3 car units

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/diesel/invitation.pdf

So I'm sticking with 202 vehicles...

 

[tbtc]

A suitable unit for Cardiff - Portsmouth would be something like a 180. But newer maybe a diesel version of a 395?

A diesel version of a 395?

Its not too dissimilar to routes that 170s/ 185s operate elsewhere - a 166 would be a capacity increase over a 158 with a similar number of coaches (due to the 3/2 seats)

 

[northwichcat]

I didn't realise Chiltern had any 166s...

No it's 165s they have. However, as the Chiltern routes 165s are used on are longer than the routes FGW use 166s on, it proves they aren't just for short distances with a 166 being a newer slightly better version of a 165.

 

[Schnellzug]

A diesel version of a 395?

Its not too dissimilar to routes that 170s/ 185s operate elsewhere - a 166 would be a capacity increase over a 158 with a similar number of coaches (due to the 3/2 seats)

yes, and that's one of the reasons why, in the current format, they're not well suited to longer routes. HST style seats, as suggested? Well, I don't really think the new FGW HST seats are much of an improvement on 158s, to be honest. The backs are way too high. No, i think i'd stick with 158s, thanks, maybe use the 165/6s to free 150s to replace Pacers. That'd be a better way round, i think.

 

[northwichcat]

yes, and that's one of the reasons why, in the current format, they're not well suited to longer routes. HST style seats, as suggested? Well, I don't really think the new FGW HST seats are much of an improvement on 158s, to be honest. The backs are way too high. No, i think i'd stick with 158s, thanks, maybe use the 165/6s to free 150s to replace Pacers. That'd be a better way round, i think.

The 16xs are cleared for the North East (I'm sure why but they are) so I'm sure if you don't want the extra carriages in your area that the North East would welcome 16xs to replace their 142s and 156s.

 

[anthony263]

I am sure some of us at ATW would welcome some class 165/166's not sure what routes to put them on however, well maybe Cardiff - Cheltenham unless it is wired and the units are not cleared for that route

 

[northwichcat]

Yes the Northwest electrification has actually been accelerated from a 2017 finish to a 2016 finish. Apart from the TPE 350's for Scotland services the first useful electrified route will be Manchester-Liverpool in 2014 but the rolling stock isnt due to start arriving from 2015 at earliest to 2017 at latest and is due for a time consuming major refurbishment as well.

The problem is also I don't think there is an interim solution to use the newly electrified lines.

Are there any spare electric locos around or any dual voltage trains in service used on DC only?

If not the only possible solution I can think of would involve the Scotrail 314s being replaced and spending a couple of years in the North of England, until the 319s are ready.

However, the Thameslink cascade is now so far behind schedule that alternative cascade arrangements need to be drawn up. I'd suggest the first 319s go to Thames Valley, then commuter lines around Bristol and Cardiff are electrified, which then get the other 319s. Then order brand new EMUs for all the lines to be electrified in the North West, plus to replace the 321s, 322s and 323s at Northern which can then be cascaded to LM and NXEA for extra capacity.

 

[anthony263]

Couldnt the governemnt just put an add on to the new class 350's for the Manchester - Scotland routes, With the ckass 319's going to FGW and some to ATW possibly if the wire to Swansea/Maesteg & Ebbw Vale.

The class 319's higher speed should be better as they can make better use of the line speed on the south wales mainline and it also allows the number of new EMU's which would have to be ordered for the valley lines electrification.

 

[northwichcat]

Couldnt the governemnt just put an add on to the new class 350's for the Manchester - Scotland routes, With the ckass 319's going to FGW and some to ATW possibly if the wire to Swansea/Maesteg & Ebbw Vale.

There has been no tender issued yet for Manchester-Scotland. Suggestions of a new 350 order have originated from people assuming things that haven't been confirmed.

 

[Schnellzug]

I wonder what would happen if there was no masterplan determined by the Department for Transport, and it was all down to the operators to decide what stock they wanted, and there was a free for all for others to bid for existing stock once it was returned to the leasing company. Would chaos ensue?

 

[Minstral25]

That's completely illogical, why would SN need more stock to operate a reduced service?

The phasing of the work Network Rail has come up with reduces the peak terminating capacity from 27 tph to 24 tph between 2013 and 2015. NR reckon that by strengthening the remaining services using the released stock there will be hardly any change to overall capacity.

Phases 2 and 3, 2015 onwards, rebuild the through platforms in various stages from South to North and are not planned to affect the terminal bays, and SN's 24 tph.

Southern currently run 28tph (Excl South London Line) out of the terminal platforms which will be reduced to maximum 24tph during the blockade.

Also FCC services will be diverted away 4tph from London Bridge because the through platforms are reduced - these are crowded services off peak picking up significant passenger numbers at LBR

Thus all trains run by Southern will all need significant extensions in length - these longer trains will be going down the network and utilising more carriages overall.

 

[WatcherZero]

There has been no tender issued yet for Manchester-Scotland. Suggestions of a new 350 order have originated from people assuming things that haven't been confirmed.

As a follow on order they dont have to issue a formal tender.

 

[swt_passenger]

Southern currently run 28tph (Excl South London Line) out of the terminal platforms which will be reduced to maximum 24tph during the blockade.

Also FCC services will be diverted away 4tph from London Bridge because the through platforms are reduced - these are crowded services off peak picking up significant passenger numbers at LBR

Thus all trains run by Southern will all need significant extensions in length - these longer trains will be going down the network and utilising more carriages overall.

I'm quoting Network Rail's statement included with the London Bridge planning application. Unfortunately the pdf is set to prevent cut and paste, but I've attached it below...